Fixing the IJN destroyers

[dasCKD]

This will be a quick one. Assignment week is coming up and I need to somehow find a way to use the worst device mankind has ever conceived of (the Kinect) to create an interactive maze that traps AI path finding objects. This one is about the destroyers no one likes anymore (Kamikaze and variants non withstanding).

 

The high tier IJN destroyers are in a bad shape right now with their low performance. WG has issued statements in regards to their performance, saying that they are effective if not used as back line torpedo spammers (which goes on to further obscure their reasoning behind keeping the long lances in game) even though player performance in both randoms and competitive seems to contradict their statements at every turn. IJN DDs need to be improved, at least at the higher tiers. At tier 6 I find the Hatsu to be weak, but none of the tier 6 destroyers are significantly powerful in my opinion so she's mostly fine there. At the higher tiers, they're prey to everything. Carriers farm them for easy XP and credits. Other destroyers, even the Germans with their poor DPM, can easily rip them to pieces in anything close to a fair fight. They can't run from the other destroyers as they are both slower than their competitors and only slightly more stealthy than their USN counterparts from tier 8 and up (something they can't even exploit as they are mostly slower and their far larger turning circles would cause them to be found even with their theoretically superior concealment).

 

So what is to be done? Nothing, if WG is to be believed. To be fair, I do enjoy the Yuugumo and I didn't think the Fubuki was awful when she was still a tier 8 but this doesn't change the fact that they are close to the worst performers tier for tier. I have a few ideas of my own and perhaps you have some suggestions to add.

 

Enlarge their health pool

They're big ships and they're not great at turning, they could do with more health. In many documents, the IJN destroyers were described as miniature cruisers after all.

 

Decrease their turning circles

In the myriad of reasons why USN destroyers make better torped boats than their IJN counterparts, the ship's turning circle is something I think should rank right at the top. Destroyers want to get as close as they can to their prey to launch their torpedoes before turning away and vanishing. In a Japanese destroyers, it took me a while to stop wandering into the detection radius of enemy ships when I first got to the Fubuki. Even the Yuugumo, I still have some issues sometimes. The smaller turning circle would also mean that they can use their superior concealment to stay away from trouble.

 

Improve torpedo concealment

If the IJN line had stealthier torpedoes, enemy ships will have to depend on strategic sense and anticipation instead of just reflexes and rudder shift mods to get out of their spreads. They'll become better torpedo boats.

 

Improve gun performance

This, I am not for. IJN destroyers, the non-Akizukis, are torpedo boats. Right now, a fight between an IJN DD isn't a fight between a torpedo destroyer and a destroyer hunter destroyer. A Shima against a Gearing isn't like a Minotaur fighting against a Hindenburg. It's like a fight between a Minekaze and a Omaha.

 

Improve torpedo reloads

The IJN had mid cruise torpedo reload capabilities, something that few if any of the other destroyers of the time period had. If this was reflected in the destroyers with the relevant torpedo turrets, then they would perform better. Few things are more annoying than getting in the perfect situation to ambush an oblivious battleship only to realize that there's still 30 seconds left on the torpedo timer.

 

Improve speed boost

Ship speeds are basically fixed, especially for the historical ships that composes all of the IJN destroyer lines. If the IJN's speed boost longevity and performance would improve however, then they can both run away from enemy destroyers whilst also improving their ability to get to the correct place to lay a perfect torpedo spread. It would also greatly improve battlefield mobility which is something that they should get if WG wants to keep the IJN destroyers as pure torpedo boats.

[_ramrus_]

I would switch Kagero and Akatsuki

[KaraMon]

Funniest thing with most of IJN DD problem in the past could be sloved by removing 20 km cancer torps  , but WG love to do precise operations on open heart with a shovel

[Nechrom]

A combination of increased gun traverse and better torpedo concealment. That's all it takes.

Keeps the feel of the ship the same while making gunnery less awkward and ensures that the torpedoes are keeping up with the USN ones.

 

Everything else is fine. It's okay that they don't have the RoF of USN or RU DDs, are not as agile as the USN DDs and not as tanky or fast as the RU DDs.

[Amon_ITA]

Voted improve torpedo concealment, i would add some more speed to the torps, mantaining range, reload speed and damage.

 

At least for the torpedo boat line.

[The_Great_SCH]

What about their speed? These DD's are so lazy, if you end up ina messy situation, it's almost certain you can press the Battle button again. I cannot recall how many IJN DD's i rek in any DD's i play. They are so underpowered it hurt. Not to mention there is no escape from Cruisers with a decent reload.

[lezantas26]

I dont know about the higher tiers, but my jpn DD seem ok. Maybe some torpedo concealment would be needed to make them more effective. The reason they up is because US and RU can do what you can but better, some of them need a slight torp range and concealment nerf so they are not as effective as jpn DD in torping

[Vaderan]

May i suggest to create your poll somewhat more neutral? Your poll appears somewhat biased, claiming that IJN DDs require a buff/change, instead of asking for wether they require or not. Of course, neutrality is always somewhat difficult, if the prefered shipclass is to be discussed.

 

DDs all together, and IJN DDs in particular, may appears somewhat effected by the latest patch, and while somebody might come to the conclusion, that a buff for IJN is overdue (which isn´t the case), players (especially IJN DD focused players) seem to forgot completly about the most important aspect and effect of the IJN DD class. An aspect, of course, which doesn´t show up in any charts or statistics, but in every match that´s played. I am talking about the psychological effect of IJN DDs. Their area-denial-weapon aspect, that factor, which makes the games (and especially BB-Kevins) so much more campy. Put a bunch of Shimakazes in a game, and nobody will dare to move anymore.

 

If we would agree for a moment, that IJN DDs require a change, how could that change look like, without increasing the psychological "debuff", this class creates on red-team players? Since their torpedoes and the ability to bring them anywhere undetected is the factor of issue, any change on torpedo or ship-handling improvements are obsolete to discuss. Same goes for health. The only thing i can think of, is improved gun handling, for better self defense purposes. Of course, better guns are the last things players on ships want to be buffed, when the ship is all about ambushing and keeping the guns quiet...

[ColonelPete]

Decrease turning circle
Improve speed were historical possible
Give them the speed loss in turns and acceleration of RN CL
Improve torpedos (Stealth, speed, reload)

 

Edit

@Vaderan

Camping is NOT caused by IJN DD.

BBs camp WITHOUT ANY DD in match!

[svadilfari]

i actually fitted all my jap DDs as gunboats i.e. AFT, BFT, AR because you can do good and most important consistant damage with their high alpha, high fire chance guns.

hitting torps with 2km detection range is a gamble at best...

[Capra76]

I dont know about the higher tiers, but my jpn DD seem ok. Maybe some torpedo concealment would be needed to make them more effective. The reason they up is because US and RU can do what you can but better, some of them need a slight torp range and concealment nerf so they are not as effective as jpn DD in torping

 

IJN DD were nerfed not because they were over-performing but because there were simply too many of them.  But of course, it is was only going to be a matter of time before that torpedo nerf was used as an excuse to demand nerfs on other DD lines.

 

Buffs for BB's nerfs for everyone else.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

I think they are mostly fine, at least I manage to do well in them. If there is one thing I would wish for it is better torp concealment. The way it is now it is just close to impossible to torp good players, simply due to the fact that there is enough reaction time unless I get to launch at a guy whose complete broadside I have.

 

Gun wise they are fine in my book. They can hold a lot of enemy dds off, major buffs there would make them too good overall.

[ghostbuster_]

This will be a quick one. Assignment week is coming up and I need to somehow find a way to use the worst device mankind has ever conceived of (the Kinect) to create an interactive maze that traps AI path finding objects. This one is about the destroyers no one likes anymore (Kamikaze and variants non withstanding).

 

The high tier IJN destroyers are in a bad shape right now with their low performance. WG has issued statements in regards to their performance, saying that they are effective if not used as back line torpedo spammers (which goes on to further obscure their reasoning behind keeping the long lances in game) even though player performance in both randoms and competitive seems to contradict their statements at every turn. IJN DDs need to be improved, at least at the higher tiers. At tier 6 I find the Hatsu to be weak, but none of the tier 6 destroyers are significantly powerful in my opinion so she's mostly fine there. At the higher tiers, they're prey to everything. Carriers farm them for easy XP and credits. Other destroyers, even the Germans with their poor DPM, can easily rip them to pieces in anything close to a fair fight. They can't run from the other destroyers as they are both slower than their competitors and only slightly more stealthy than their USN counterparts from tier 8 and up (something they can't even exploit as they are mostly slower and their far larger turning circles would cause them to be found even with their theoretically superior concealment).

 

So what is to be done? Nothing, if WG is to be believed. To be fair, I do enjoy the Yuugumo and I didn't think the Fubuki was awful when she was still a tier 8 but this doesn't change the fact that they are close to the worst performers tier for tier. I have a few ideas of my own and perhaps you have some suggestions to add.

 

Enlarge their health pool

They're big ships and they're not great at turning, they could do with more health. In many documents, the IJN destroyers were described as miniature cruisers after all.

 

Decrease their turning circles

In the myriad of reasons why USN destroyers make better torped boats than their IJN counterparts, the ship's turning circle is something I think should rank right at the top. Destroyers want to get as close as they can to their prey to launch their torpedoes before turning away and vanishing. In a Japanese destroyers, it took me a while to stop wandering into the detection radius of enemy ships when I first got to the Fubuki. Even the Yuugumo, I still have some issues sometimes. The smaller turning circle would also mean that they can use their superior concealment to stay away from trouble.

 

Improve torpedo concealment

If the IJN line had stealthier torpedoes, enemy ships will have to depend on strategic sense and anticipation instead of just reflexes and rudder shift mods to get out of their spreads. They'll become better torpedo boats.

 

Improve gun performance

This, I am not for. IJN destroyers, the non-Akizukis, are torpedo boats. Right now, a fight between an IJN DD isn't a fight between a torpedo destroyer and a destroyer hunter destroyer. A Shima against a Gearing isn't like a Minotaur fighting against a Hindenburg. It's like a fight between a Minekaze and a Omaha.

 

Improve torpedo reloads

The IJN had mid cruise torpedo reload capabilities, something that few if any of the other destroyers of the time period had. If this was reflected in the destroyers with the relevant torpedo turrets, then they would perform better. Few things are more annoying than getting in the perfect situation to ambush an oblivious battleship only to realize that there's still 30 seconds left on the torpedo timer.

 

Improve speed boost

Ship speeds are basically fixed, especially for the historical ships that composes all of the IJN destroyer lines. If the IJN's speed boost longevity and performance would improve however, then they can both run away from enemy destroyers whilst also improving their ability to get to the correct place to lay a perfect torpedo spread. It would also greatly improve battlefield mobility which is something that they should get if WG wants to keep the IJN destroyers as pure torpedo boats.

Well about guns i dont agree. I think they are fine. Yesterday i rekt a gearing with my shima. All you have to do is keep your distance at 8-9 km and let the arcs work. 

About torpedos, im using F3s. Their reload is really fast. There werent any situation that i wanted to torp someone but my torpedos were in reload. Their concealment is also fine because they are superfast. If you sneak to any ship, it doesnt have to be a bb) and top it with 15 f3 torpedos. That ship is honna die or take heavy damage. Even german bbs with hydro active cant dodge them all.  

In general i really think that IJP DDs are just fine. At least shimakaze is. So there should be "they are just fine, no need to fix anything" option.

[ghostbuster_]

 

IJN DD were nerfed not because they were over-performing but because there were simply too many of them.  But of course, it is was only going to be a matter of time before that torpedo nerf was used as an excuse to demand nerfs on other DD lines.

 

Buffs for BB's nerfs for everyone else.

Can you show me the nerf for CAs and DDs in this patch? And the buffs BBs? I think that patch favored CAs.

[Capra76]

Can you show me the nerf for CAs and DDs in this patch? And the buffs BBs? I think that patch favored CAs.

 

I never said there were nerfs in this patch, I'm simply observing that whenever calls are made for balance changes it always seems to be that battleships are under-performing and other classes over-performing.

[ghostbuster_]

 

I never said there were nerfs in this patch, I'm simply observing that whenever calls are made for balance changes it always seems to be that battleships are under-performing and other classes over-performing.

About which nerfs and which buffs were you talking about then? 

[Comodoro_Allande]

Well, my solution doesn't match exactly with the pool options:

 

-Nerf to the concealment of the other dd lines (I think the 5-6,5 km range should be only avaiable by far to IJN ones, a whole 1 km window advantage should be perfect)

-A little bit better torpedo concealment (not so much)

-Better torpedo reload

-Nerf to the stupid Fletcher/Gearing long range torps: less range and less speed. It's just mind blowing that WG made Long-Lances useless but maintained that american torps...

-And, of course, NO KEEN INTUITION/RPF/RDF 

[RokinRon]

none of the above,  they play different but still play well the way they are

[Insane_Ringworm]

I find the shim to be a little weak imo, out gunned by everything at its tier, weak smoke and things like radar, planes, sonar and now rdf to catch it. Either help with the long range torps a little and make them better than the USA, or help with the tanker type turning circle so you can get in and out when things turn against you which should help push more of a aggressive play style and make short torps more viable. I play BBs followed by cruisers then DDs  and still would like to see the shim return a little, plus note more players taking sonar and radar may stop the AA consumable been used as much and may help the pain in the back end but missed CVs return.

[creamgravy]

The high tier IJN destroyers are in a bad shape right now with their low performance.

 

The mid tiers are doing fine 

 

Tier 6.

Shinonome is one of the highest performing ships at this tier. Fubuki is technically the same/better but doesn't have good players with high level captains.

Hatsuharu is doing great.

 

Tier 7.

Shiratsuyu is one of the highest performing ships at this tier. The 5 second reload booster and needs a nerf.

Akatsuki is out performing Mahan. This is a Shinonome on steroids, maybe we'll see its true potential with a premium version one day? Would be very comfortable at tier 9.

 

Tier 8.

Akizuki is one of the highest performing ships at this tier. 100mm gun bloom and ability to set fires makes this ship OP. (Nerf the stealth fire mechanic, not the ship)

Kagero is doing fine. Actually this is my pick for the best tier 8 destroyer. Trying to stop a one from scouting/capping/doing huge torpedo damage with a bunch of half decent BBs behind them is hard.

 

I don't really play at tier 9-10 but Shimakaze isn't far off Gearing in 2 week stats. Not bad considering the much higher number of games. Why does it need a buff again?

[tenacious_torps]

Mid tier could do with some extra knots on the torps, high tier with better concealment. Not sure if it'll do all that much though, the meta simply isn't exactly favoring the line. 

[dasCKD]

Shinonome is one of the highest performing ships at this tier. Fubuki is technically the same/better but doesn't have good players with high level captains.

 

One ship requires at least a tier 10 ship in port for a player to get access to. The other is now less concealed, has worse torpedoes, has a smaller health pool, and has fewer guns.

Shiratsuyu is one of the highest performing ships at this tier. The 5 second reload booster and needs a nerf.

 

Without the reload consumable she'll just be a subpar Kagero.

Akatsuki is out performing Mahan. This is a Shinonome on steroids, maybe we'll see its true potential with a premium version one day? Would be very comfortable at tier 9.

 

If the Akatsuki of all ships is outperforming the Mahan, then the world has gone mad. The Akatsuki is nice-ish at tier 7, but the Mahan should be ripping her competition to pieces considering her superior handling, DPM, and health pool.

Akizuki is one of the highest performing ships at this tier. 100mm gun bloom and ability to set fires makes this ship OP. (Nerf the stealth fire mechanic, not the ship)

 

She's also a gunboat, and a departure from the Japanese destroyer line. Without her stealth firing capabilities, she's just a slow Trashkent. Same turning circle as well.

Kagero is doing fine. Actually this is my pick for the best tier 8 destroyer. Trying to stop a one from scouting/capping/doing huge torpedo damage with a bunch of half decent BBs behind them is hard.

 

The Benson's concealment is almost identical and is superior in every other respect baring maybe two. Health, speed, gun handling, maneuverability, consumable performance, DPM, and AA. There is almost nothing that the Kagero can do that the Benson can't and I have only ever once seen the Kagero utilized to any effect whatsoever in a competitive environment.

I don't really play at tier 9-10 but Shimakaze isn't far off Gearing in 2 week stats. Not bad considering the much higher number of games. Why does it need a buff again?

 

The fact that she is THE worst or second worst in every single statistic might have something to do with it.

[dasCKD]

Well about guns i dont agree. I think they are fine. Yesterday i rekt a gearing with my shima. All you have to do is keep your distance at 8-9 km and let the arcs work.

 

The guns are fine on the Yuugumo, but if I wanted to shoot at destroyers they are better choices. I rarely use them on anything that isn't a destroyer unless it's about 10 minutes in game at least. Very few players would get themselves in a long ranged artillery duel in a USN destroyer anyways, I personally prefer to engage enemy destroyers at 3 kilometers or less with my Benson.

About torpedos, im using F3s. Their reload is really fast. There werent any situation that i wanted to torp someone but my torpedos were in reload. Their concealment is also fine because they are superfast. If you sneak to any ship, it doesnt have to be a bb) and top it with 15 f3 torpedos. That ship is honna die or take heavy damage. Even german bbs with hydro active cant dodge them all.  

 

I also use the F3s on my Yuugumo with Torpedo Tubes Mod. 3 as well as TAE and my reload is still almost 80 seconds. Now this might be because I use my torpedoes recklessly, but as things stand the larger tube compliment is only crippling destroyers at the higher tiers.

In general i really think that IJP DDs are just fine. At least shimakaze is. So there should be "they are just fine, no need to fix anything" option.

 

If you insist. I am still adamant that they need improvements however.

 

 

[IceyJones]

de-nerf the incredible high reaction times would be the right direction. they are torp-boats.......with the actual worst torps in terms of reliable hits!

their high speed means not much with such long reaction times.

 

i say this since months.....

 

specially with al the indirect and direct stealth play nerfs the IJN line would need such a buff!

 

but as i stopped playing totally, i dont really care if they re-buff them

[TheCinC]

Voted 'decrease turning circles' and 'improve torpedo concealment', but I think more needs to be done.

 

I liked it when IJN DDs speciality was torpedoes, when they had fast, long range torpedoes.

Hits at 20 km range, sometimes after missing your intended target, were hilarious.

While I miss that, I fully understand this was a problem for some people.

It encouraged the same kind of play style that BB players are often berated for: passive, sit in the back, fire-and-forget, reload, repeat.

But that 'flavour', better torpedoes than any other nation, has now completely disappeared, while the offset, poor guns, remains in most cases.

In some cases, USN torpedoes are better, possibly RN torpedoes as well.

I think they should bring that element back: long range.

Not 20 km, if those disappear, fine, you should only be able to hit potatoes that way anyway, plus it also means you can't torp if there are friendlies contesting the next cap zone.

But fast, 8 km range torps, with low detectability (which was historically the case) would allow the IJN DD a bit of a safety margin when firing torpedoes.

Opponents would still often have hydro and radar to offset that anyway and I see no reason why the torpedoboats would have worse torps than gunboats, that makes no sense at all.

 

Manoeuvrability is a major factor too.

Manoeuvrability at speed even more so.

When spotted, smoke no longer cuts it and when there are islands in the way, you're screwed.

So a smaller turning circle and the ability to remain at full speed while turning, like the RN CLs have, would help a lot.

 

One thing I've suggested on a few other occasions was to use the existing mechanism to modify the accuracy of incoming fire.

This is already a value in the game, if it can be modified 'on the fly' then it could work as follows:

-the more your target turns and changes speed in between firing/launching the more your chance of a hit decreases

This will rewards players for taking evasive action, while ships that steer in a straight line get hit more easily.

Somehow, I've missed shots against ships that were beached and at best slowly reversing, how is that even possible?

 

Detectability is another problem, with Radio location hitting IJN DDs especially hard.

Ever since CBT, IJN DDs have effectively been nerfed again and again.

Setting up a successful torpedo attack is now next to impossible, even at close range.

Something needs to be done to remedy that.

If WG wants DDs to fight up close, they need to make that possible.

With ships that have radar with 10 km range and hydro that not only spots all torps nearby for all ships, but also every ship within effective torpedo range, as an IJN DD, it is an uphill battle, especially when ambush tactics no longer work either.

They can spot you even when hiding behind an island, even hydro and radar completely ignore obstacles, but you have no way to fight back and no health pool that allows you to survive.

Some IJN DDs are pretty fast, but there are plenty of ships that can still catch you and in a gunfight, unless you're in an Akizuki, you're out of luck.

Buffing the guns for IJN DDs will just make all DDs more of the same, instead of preserving the original unique flavour.

Judging by 0.6.0 and the response that they know something is up with IJN but don't really have a handle on it, as well as the announcement of new post-war Soviet gunboats, I am not sure WG is even fully aware of this issue.

I wonder if stats will reflect the current status quo.

I for one have stopped playing completely, I almost felt like I was being punished for embracing the DD in the absence of RN BBs and for not being a sit-in-the-back type of player.