Interested in German Cruisers

[Syrchalis]

I have the Zao and Minotaur, my russian line is kind of stuck at the Shchors, not because it's bad, but because I have the Kutuzov and that kind of demotivates me to get the Chapayev. T9/10 of RU are not that appealing to me either, though I would give them a spin, especially Moskva can potentially be great. I just fear the concealment of that thing.

 

I don't want to grind the US cruisers, because I just don't see any point in that line. Baltimore is HORRIBLE and Des Moines is not worth the grind either.

 

The KM cruisers are generally appealing because I like strong AP, because it doesn't rely on fire RNG to deal good damage and fires can't be stolen by other ships. Still you have the OPTION of fires, unlike RN cruisers. However, a few things hold me back.

First off, the grind. I enjoyed the RN grind because I skipped everything to Fiji and Fiji and beyond are great ships. I don't see anything in the KM line though. It feels like all the ships are bad. Königsberg is probably good, but then what? Nürnberg is bad, Yorck is really bad (not because it sucks so hard, but the other T7 cruisers are just godlike compared to it), Hipper is considered bad, Roon is considered bad, just the Hindenburg is "pretty decent", still below the other lines, except for Des Moines. Don't get me wrong, by bad I don't necessarily mean "the ship sucks, you can't do crap with it" - compared to the other cruisers at the tier, how do they perform? As far as I know they do pretty badly overall.

 

What are some positives about the KM CAs? They don't have radar as far as I know (do they?). German Hydro sure is a nice thing, but meh, BBs have it too, so whatever. Good AA is pretty worthless. The ONE thing I really like is setting fires and then having really good AP to transition to. They also have crappy torps (but they HAVE them, that's the important thing, so this is pro not contra) and not as bad as russian torps.

 

Come, make KM CAs appealing for me. I'm already interested, so it shouldn't be too hard.

[NameChangingIsToExpensiv]

I don't know where you got your assumptions, but from my experience. 

-Nürnberg is pretty trash

-Yorck, although it is played completely different than the rest of the line, is pretty decent

-Hipper is medicore

-Roon is actually regarded as one of the best t9 cruisers.

-Hindenburg is one of the worst, if not the worst t10, but still very fun to play.

 

The AP isn't really that good. I mean yes you have the highest alpha Damage and a flat trajectory, but the penetration isn't that stellar.

1 positive may be, that they can be quite tanky in close range combat, because they have turtleback.

They are more like a jack of all trades.

[VC381]

I was in a similar position to you. I really enjoyed Konigsberg, probably the second best T5 cruiser (after Kirov), for me anyway. But I didn't feel motivated to carry on, because Nurnberg is basically the same thing a tier higher, and Yorck seemed pointless because it doesn't have the signature AP (note this doesn't mean I think it's weak, I haven't played it, just didn't want to). So why did I say I'm in a similar position? I don't know what motivates you to try new ships, but I did always want a Hipper just because the class is beautiful and has lots of history. Also, after playing US cruisers a lot, I was after something else with great AP but that was different as well. Eventually the way I compromised is I gave in and bought the Prinz Eugen on sale, that way I got the only ship I wanted to actually play in the line without the grind. Basically since it's a Hipper clone then what I say should count for that ship as well.

 

After reading a lot of bad press about Hipper/PE but wanting the ship badly due to looks+history I was ready to get disappointed but my god... I was so shocked... by how good it is! It is just so comfortable to play, long range, fast reload, fast turrets. I actually used my random German BB captain in it (so no DE) and even then HE felt OK. The AP is amazing. If that's what you're after it does not disappoint. Cruiser citadels at 17km, no sweat. BBs even slightly angled, 5k to 8k salvos, no problem. Range is safety and you don't need to compromise because it's laser accurate. That might be the "gem" of the line you are looking for.

 

As for higher tiers, I don't mind project/never-were ships but Roon and Hindenburg are complete fiction and I have little interest in them. However I respect them when I face them and it seems they have the same combination of traits that I enjoy in Prinz Eugen.

[Blitzkrieguk]

To be honest. The AP on the Moskva is far more brutal and reliable than german AP. The concealment is not great but it doesnt matter when you have a 22km range and can still citadel cruisers at that range.

 

The Hindenberg is just kinda meh. All the other cruisers kind of do everything it does but better.

[Syrchalis]

I don't know where you got your assumptions, but from my experience. 

-Nürnberg is pretty trash

-Yorck, although it is played completely different than the rest of the line, is pretty decent

-Hipper is medicore

-Roon is actually regarded as one of the best t9 cruisers.

-Hindenburg is one of the worst, if not the worst t10, but still very fun to play.

 

The AP isn't really that good. I mean yes you have the highest alpha Damage and a flat trajectory, but the penetration isn't that stellar.

1 positive may be, that they can be quite tanky in close range combat, because they have turtleback.

They are more like a jack of all trades.

 

That doesn't sound too different, how each ship performs wasn't my concern, but that the whole line seems to have a whole bunch of "meh" in it, rather than say the IJN line that is pretty good all around or the russian line.

 

Flat trajectory is great, if the shell fly time is short of course. Otherwise it just prevents you from shooting over islands. Turtleback sounds nice, because I'm quite sick of getting randomly citadelled by BBs so often. Even if it's not a really strong protection like KM BBs, if it just reduced the citadels it would already be great.

 

To be honest. The AP on the Moskva is far more brutal and reliable than german AP. The concealment is not great but it doesnt matter when you have a 22km range and can still citadel cruisers at that range.

 

The Hindenberg is just kinda meh. All the other cruisers kind of do everything it does but better.

 

How does the AP perform against BBs though? I really don't have any issues with other cruisers. Even in my Minotaur, which can only citadel at very short range (due to shell trajectory and due to low caliber and short fuse) I have no issues due to good aiming.

[NameChangingIsToExpensiv]

 

That doesn't sound too different, how each ship performs wasn't my concern, but that the whole line seems to have a whole bunch of "meh" in it, rather than say the IJN line that is pretty good all around or the russian line.

 

Flat trajectory is great, if the shell fly time is short of course. Otherwise it just prevents you from shooting over islands. Turtleback sounds nice, because I'm quite sick of getting randomly citadelled by BBs so often. Even if it's not a really strong protection like KM BBs, if it just reduced the citadels it would already be great.

 

 

How does the AP perform against BBs though? I really don't have any issues with other cruisers. Even in my Minotaur, which can only citadel at very short range (due to shell trajectory and due to low caliber and short fuse) I have no issues due to good aiming.

 

Except some weakly armored BBs like Iowas/Ncal etc. you won't citadel anything, but the regular pen damage is quite good. So you can slap them some 10k volley in their broadside. But when they start to angle slightly, the AP damage really drops to zero. So don't be afraid to use HE.

[Syrchalis]

I don't plan on citadels really, but good penetrations. I know what my RN CLs can do, so I expect even more from the KM CAs (not DPM wise, but per salvo). If they angle, can't you still damage the superstructure well? Works for my RN CLs. 

[Blitzkrieguk]

 

That doesn't sound too different, how each ship performs wasn't my concern, but that the whole line seems to have a whole bunch of "meh" in it, rather than say the IJN line that is pretty good all around or the russian line.

 

Flat trajectory is great, if the shell fly time is short of course. Otherwise it just prevents you from shooting over islands. Turtleback sounds nice, because I'm quite sick of getting randomly citadelled by BBs so often. Even if it's not a really strong protection like KM BBs, if it just reduced the citadels it would already be great.

 

 

How does the AP perform against BBs though? I really don't have any issues with other cruisers. Even in my Minotaur, which can only citadel at very short range (due to shell trajectory and due to low caliber and short fuse) I have no issues due to good aiming.

 

You can citadel Battleships under 10 to 12km. Depending on which one. 

I had a Missouri broadside me at about 10 km and I salvoed him for 30k from my frontal guns. The penetration on them is pretty insane. While I own the Minotaur, unless its another RN cruiser you have to be extremely close to citadel him. The Moskva on the other hand can citadel cruisers at 22km. The trajectory and velocity are extremely flat and extremely quick as they travel at almost 1000m/s. The penetration angles on the Russian AP seem to be more consistant than the German AP they just shatters at very slight angles.

 

That said you do tend to change your ammo alot in the moskva. Was running expert loader on it and found it one of the only ships it was useful on. If only I could put steven seagal on it.

If you want a Cruiser with insane AP get the Moskva.

[nerderklaus]

I don't know where you got your assumptions, but from my experience. 

-Nürnberg is pretty trash

-Yorck, although it is played completely different than the rest of the line, is pretty decent

-Hipper is medicore

-Roon is actually regarded as one of the best t9 cruisers.

-Hindenburg is one of the worst, if not the worst t10, but still very fun to play.

 

The AP isn't really that good. I mean yes you have the highest alpha Damage and a flat trajectory, but the penetration isn't that stellar.

1 positive may be, that they can be quite tanky in close range combat, because they have turtleback.

They are more like a jack of all trades.

 

Actually the AP of Königsberg and Nürnberg felt most reliable to me when I played through the line, but that was with the old MM. Hindenburg honestly feels inferior to Dimitri in the same games. I purposely made that comparison knowing that there are some 9-10 power creeps like Izumo and Yamato... I didn't feel the "tanky at range" yet, because tier 10 BBs archieved multiple citadels at all angles on all ranges against my Hindenburg which is bigger than various BBs.

 

The AP has the high theoretical damage, but the penetration properties will have them deal less practical damage than RU and US cruisers.

 

Actually RU and US cruisers seem most worth it to me currently, because they have radar and both shell types (in particular AP against BB, so that you really can start hurting them when they burn already) will hit harder than the German ones most of the time.

[Sander93]

I don't know where you got your assumptions, but from my experience. 

 

-Hindenburg is one of the worst, if not the worst t10, but still very fun to play.

 

​Don't know where you got yours but Hindenburg is right there at the top with the others.

[1MajorKoenig]

Königsberg is good

Yorck is good just different to the rest of the line

Roon is REALLY fun

Hindenburg is decent as well

 

So I am sure you will have fun with the line. I even liked Nuernberg but the meta changed since. The only ones I didn't like where Kolberg and Hipper.

 

Kept Emden, Karlsruhe/Coeln, Yorck, Roon and Hindenburg.

 

Like the fast AP with good trajectory (apart from Yorck) and the secondaries on Roon. Hindenburg pumps out damage but her AP is light and can be frustrating at times in the high tier camp fests.

[Syrchalis]

From what you guys said so far it sounds more like RU > KM with not much benefits on the KM side that are worth it.

 

I mean, I still have to get the Moskva, so it's not like I wouldn't be happy with the RU line as well, I was just wondering about a line I never even looked a before, because I found the initial design unappealing for me - things have changed though an the idea of "meh" HE and good AP is more my style now. Mostly due to RN cruisers, which taught me where to shoot at with AP to always get results, angled or not.

[damo74]

From what you guys said so far it sounds more like RU > KM with not much benefits on the KM side that are worth it.

 

I mean, I still have to get the Moskva, so it's not like I wouldn't be happy with the RU line as well, I was just wondering about a line I never even looked a before, because I found the initial design unappealing for me - things have changed though an the idea of "meh" HE and good AP is more my style now. Mostly due to RN cruisers, which taught me where to shoot at with AP to always get results, angled or not.

 

I think you'll like the German cruiser line. There's no bad ships except for the tier 4.

 

Tier 5 Konigsberg is just fantastic.

Tier 6 Nurnberg is a decent ship

Tier 7 Yorck is also decent, once you get used to it.

Tier 8 Hipper is a great ship.

I hear good things about the T9/10 also.

[deadly_if_swallowed]

Not sure why KM cruisers get so much hate. I enjoy them all from Königsberg upwards. I think they are the most balanced ships we have in the game, great in a lot of aspects but not particulary excellent in any. I see the point in rather not playing them in competitive settings (although I'd love to see them there) but in random battles they can fulfill a lot of roles.

 

Armor: fragile until T6, starting with T7 you have a turtleback that can save you in CA knifefight. The CAs have good overall armor but miss the concrete nose USN CAs have

Main armament: faster reload than their peers, good penetration on AP, but most importantly: flat arcs, no dispersion (except Yorck AP) much like RU

Torpedoes: existent, good angles for versatility, but not as strong as IJN

AA: better than IJN, worse than USN

Maneuverabilty: better than RU, worse than USN, a bit like IJN

Concealment: quite okay, not as good as IJN.

German hydro: longer reach than the normal one, not far enough to be compared to radar. Still very useful at spotting torps for the team.

[fnord_disc]

I stopped after Hipper and got Eugen from a crate so my experience only goes to T8. Since you probably won't play the low tiers much I'll talk mainly about Yorck and Eugen.

 

Yorck is a long range fire spammer. It's a decent ship nowadays, but you can't really count on it against other cruisers because the AP is trash.

 

Hipper/Eugen can be a lot of fun if they're top tier or in cruiser-heavy games, but you'll get a lot of games where you can't really contribute much to the game at all. If you pick the rudder shift module you can spam HE from long range all day and dodge salvos, but the high concealment will make you much worse against cruisers. If you pick the concealment module to ambush cruisers giving broadside beyond your detection range (which is a lot of fun - it's not hard to get triple cit salvos at 13-14km), then you'll have trouble making the ship work in games with a lot of battleships.

 

Compared to RU ships you have more HP and a much smaller citadel. The ships are fairly durable as long as you only fighting other cruisers. The turning circle is okay, but your rudder shift is generally poor (Chapayev, Donskoi, Moskva all have better rudder shift than the German ships at their tier). That means you'll often eat citadels at long range because it's very difficult to dodge anything.

 

My problem with Hipper/Eugen is just that there is no niche for you to... outperform anybody. You can spam long range HE decently, especially with the RS module, but a Kutuzov is just better at that. You perform well against cruisers, but battleships will execute all the enemy cruisers sooner or later anyway. The hydro is very situational.

 

Frankly, I can't recommend the line to anybody. I don't personally see the carry potential in the ships. I know that some people like them and I found those 20k-30k AP salvos at 14km very enjoyable too. But that just happens far too rarely.

[Azakeit]

The Hipper (which was my first T8 cruiser !) was really enjoyable and I had a lot of good games in it, the Roon is better but I didn't play it much.

 

German cruisers are like german DDs, average, the Roon and Hindenburg can dish out a lot of broadside dmg to a BB (good AP and high ROF) and if they want they can spam HE from afar and set some fires

[deadly_if_swallowed]

and if they want they can spam HE from afar and set some fires

 

8.8 sec reload ftw

[HotshotJimmy]

I'll say one thing as an outsider looking in, taking down a Moskva citadel wise is hell of alot easier than taking a Hindenburg out in a Minotaur/Neptune. I can comfortably hit the Russian kit at 13-15km range and citadel but the Hindenburg has to be AT LEAST 10km and less. Its why nowadays I just shoot at the sticky out bits and ruin his guns. 

[Panocek]

I have the Zao and Minotaur, my russian line is kind of stuck at the Shchors, not because it's bad, but because I have the Kutuzov and that kind of demotivates me to get the Chapayev. T9/10 of RU are not that appealing to me either, though I would give them a spin, especially Moskva can potentially be great. I just fear the concealment of that thing.

 

Chapayev is considerably different to Kutuzov. While latter might have advantages in AA, manoeuvrability and smoke, Chapayev with maxed out concealment fights her way through with stealth firing above 14.7km. 10.2km base detection means if you're detected, you're free to pop radar and give some shelling to them DDs. Donskoi is kinda unimpressive, as her guns combine worst of both "heavy" and "light" cruisers - smallish caliber, unable to damage BBs and worse main battery reload. On other hand, bigass cruiser dashing almost 38kts with long range makes for nice kiting and overall long range shelling, with ballistics not far from Zao herself. Moskva maxed concealment of 13.8km sounds scary indeed, but ship itself is certainly up for the task - 50mm Stalinium plating on amidships can and will give giggles as you shrug off Yamato guns, while 220mm Stalinium class railguns citadel Yamatos and Montanas up to 10km  AA is lackluster, so you rely on solely Defensive Fire to fight your way through CV attacks.

[Exocet6951]

I don't see why people keep repeating that the Nurnberg and Hipper are bad...

 

Nurnberg is fragile, sure, but she has good maneuverability and a great range. With two turrets at the back, she can juke and avoid just about any ship chasing after her.

 

Hipper? As long as you  put the right module to deal with the slow rudder, it's as maneuverable as the other cruisers, has AA almost on par with the Kutuzov, and epic hydro, some of the best armor a cruiser can ask for, and tier10-grade guns. The only thing the Hindenburg's guns do is increase the RoF and range. That's extremely potent. 

She's perhaps not the best ship to deal with the current style of gameplay on the EU server, but to claim she's bad is just plain wrong.

[mikelight1805]

I loved my Nuremberg. i even used it in ranked. I found the AP reliable and got around the fragility by kiting away all the time.

'

The Eugen/Hipper are tanky enough when angled, the AP is hard hitting, and the HE is easily buffed to acceptable levels with DE

 

The Roon i play with the range mod, 20km range with accurate dispersion values is perfectly workable when your fire power is all at the back. you can hit with every salvo even at max range if your aim is good.

 

I have found the KM line very enjoyable. decent jacks of all trades. no niche, no speciality, just decent all round cruiser killers. I know they say there is an a$$ for every seat, and i'm in a minority when liking KM CA/CLs but they are the perfect seat for me.

[Oely001]

Karlsruhe is really fun, she is like a Danae with better armor and HE.

Königsberg is strong, maybe the strongest T5 cruiser.

Nürnberg is a decent DD/CA killer, she only suffers from the BB-heavy meta. She may benefit a lot from the new Inertia Fuse skill.

Yorck is not bad at all! Her AP sucks, but that's the only real weakness.

 

Somebody who played the RN-CL and succeeded with them will also manage the German cruisers.

[Prospect_b]

Been grinding the KM cruisers myself, at hipper now.

 

Konigsberg I played a lot when i was quite new, wasn't that bad of a ship (though I was)

 

Nurnberg I actually like the most, even with a lot of T8 battles and the constant overpresence of BB. When in a bad spot, just run and you still have 2/3 of your firepower. AP and reload are fantastic.

 

Yorck. Hmm. In the end I liked the ship as such (only use ap < 9 km, you'll be surprised) but it really can't hold when there's only 2/3 cruisers in each team. Very decent HE. (The shells don't really feel "German" though)

 

With Hipper I'm having even more trouble at the moment. (biggest problem the same as forementioned, a lot of T10 battles, with massive bb presence). I saw someone mentioning staying at max range... Will try that, but if that (and some more practising) doesn't help, I'm thinking of freeXPing it. With hipper being described as the absolute cruiserkiller, it is just absolutely no fun in this meta (made even worse with a lot of "friendly" bbs refusing to go up and use ca's as meatshield).

[deadly_if_swallowed]

With hipper being described as the absolute cruiserkiller, it is just absolutely no fun in this meta (made even worse with a lot of "friendly" bbs refusing to go up and use ca's as meatshield).

 

Armament that kills cruisers can't be that weak against other targets, right? ;) You can harass BBs with 3-10k salvoes every 13 seconds, and you can hurt DDs pretty badly by taking good occasional pot shots at them, even with AP. Hipper is a situational ship but thanks to her overall balance (being good at everything while not excelling in anything particular), you can pick most situations yourself. If you liked Yorck, I see no reason why not to like Hipper as well

[ollonborre]

The Roon i play with the range mod, 20km range with accurate dispersion values is perfectly workable when your fire power is all at the back. you can hit with every salvo even at max range if your aim is good.

I prefered the reload module on the Roon and now on my Hinden. I feel that the DPM you can achieve is a bit too good to pass up on trying to be an inferiour Zao. And with the turtleback and Hydro you are not afraid to push in, and delivering painful salvoes every 8.8 seconds.