Counter to RPF/RDF

[mrk421]

With patch 0.6.0 imminent and with it the controversial Radio Location or Radio Direction/Position Finding skill added to the game I had a thought.

 

Like most people I don't think this skill will improve the game and would rather have it not exist. But assuming WG insists on leaving it in, we have to find a way to make it work. Many have said and I agree that one of the issues with this skill is the fact that it cannot be countered - the only way to somewhat protect yourself against someone with this skill is to have that skill as well. So what could be done to counter RDF?

 

I have heard suggestions that there should be another commander skill which negates the effect of this one. In my opinion that would not be the best option. Here's what I would suggest instead:

Add an extra consumable called "radio silence" to all ships of all classes from T4 or T5 upwards, or potentially even all tiers. It would be an extra consumable slot on all ships and would not compete with or replace any other consumables. Like the name says the consumable would switch off  your ship's radio thus making you immune to being located by the RDF skill for the duration. A side effect would be that while the consumable is active you'd also be unable to spot targets for your friends. If you have the RDF skill yourself, you'd still be able to get the direction to the nearest enemy AND see targets spotted by your friendlies - you'd be listening with the radio, but not broadcasting...

The consumable should have a rather long duration of perhaps 3-4 minutes and a short cooldown. The premium version would increase the duration, but not affect the cooldown.

 

Assuming RDF is here to stay, do you think something like what I suggested would help restore some element of stealth play to the game?

[Aotearas]

First and prefered choice would be to scrap the skill and remove it from the game entirely.

 

Second, third all the way to infinity-1 choice would be the same as above.

 

The absolut last resort would be to either: implement a radio silence option for ships that allows a player to disable one's radio, resulting in the skill no longer being able to locate any ship whose radio is disabled. Like disabling one's AA/secondaries. Penalties would be that you no longer recieve spotting information from ships that you don't have line of sight to (since should could and typically would communicate via light or flag signals during operations and hold radio silence specifically to avoid being detected by those signals).

 

I'd really prefer this crutch mechanic to simply not be in the game in the first place though. Just in case I haven't mentioned that yet.

[AgarwaenME]

Well since this skill basicly is here to counter one defense, lets add a skill that counters other defenses.

 

Lets call it "Fantastic Unlikely Counter Knowledge for Your weapons Or Unloved ships"  

 

With this skill all armour or torpedo protection facing your weapons only is half as effective. It's just as "balanced" after all, and I bet I can find some bullcrap excuse to say "costs too much" or "would rathr take other skills" or "lets see how it works on the live server".

[Mavadelo]

Well since this skill basicly is here to counter one defense, lets add a skill that counters other defenses.

 

Lets call it "Fantastic Unlikely Counter Knowledge for Your weapons Or Unloved ships"  

 

With this skill all armour or torpedo protection facing your weapons only is half as effective. It's just as "balanced" after all, and I bet I can find some bullcrap excuse to say "costs too much" or "would rathr take other skills" or "lets see how it works on the live server".

 

I like their defense of "hardly anyone will take it because it is an expensive skill and their are better options"

if that is the case..... why add it in the first place is it is so "situational"

[mrk421]

The absolut last resort would be to either: implement a radio silence option for ships that allows a player to disable one's radio, resulting in the skill no longer being able to locate any ship whose radio is disabled. Like disabling one's AA/secondaries. Penalties would be that you no longer recieve spotting information from ships that you don't have line of sight to (since should could and typically would communicate via light or flag signals during operations and hold radio silence specifically to avoid being detected by those signals).

 

Indeed that would be even better if you had full control via a button over whether you are broadcasting or not.

I don't think that switching off broadcasting would mean you can't receive spotting information from friendlies. Because listening to the radio waves is passive and you're not emitting any signal while doing that - thus it won't give off your position. You would, however, not be able to share spotting information with your friends - at least not with those who you don't have line-of-sight with like you said.

[RenamedUser_92906789]

The only solution would be cooperation between two DDs.

One as bait an the other behind the bait.

 

And we ALL know how much cooperation there is in random battles ... so ... yea.

 

What this skill does is that it kills my favorite tactics in this game.

I used to knife fight with a DD and make him smoke up. When he does (assuming there is no other enemy ship spotting me) I flanked him and pushed into his smoke and wreck him.

If that same DD has RL (RDF) the same tactics is flushed down the toilet.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

With patch 0.6.0 imminent and with it the controversial Radio Location or Radio Direction/Position Finding skill added to the game I had a thought.

 

We studied your concerns and Public Test data carefully and came to this conclusion.
There is no place for RPF/RDF in World of Warships.  We are instead adding RL.

 

We hope this clears that up.

[Ze_Reckless]

Many people complain about bad teams/players. There are two ways to level the playing field between unicums and potat players who haven't learned enough yet:

1: Educate new players and create training campaigns. Too much work. 

2: Reduce the effectiveness of actual skill in the game so everyone has equal chances to win using fun and engaging game mechanics. 

 

Your radio silence idea is nice and all, but it would be too complicated for the average player.

[rafparis]

 

Your radio silence idea is nice and all, but it would be too complicated for the average player.

 

RPF, which is a 4pt skill, is also complicated for the average player.

[Boris_MNE]

There is no another way besides ABUSING that skill untill some .... from WG understand that they .... up game. #madasfuck

 

[Comrad_StaIin]

Here we go again...

[Hedgehog1963]

First and prefered choice would be to scrap the skill and remove it from the game entirely.

 

Second, third all the way to infinity-1 choice would be the same as above.

 

The absolut last resort would be to either: implement a radio silence option for ships that allows a player to disable one's radio, resulting in the skill no longer being able to locate any ship whose radio is disabled. Like disabling one's AA/secondaries. Penalties would be that you no longer recieve spotting information from ships that you don't have line of sight to (since should could and typically would communicate via light or flag signals during operations and hold radio silence specifically to avoid being detected by those signals).

 

I'd really prefer this crutch mechanic to simply not be in the game in the first place though. Just in case I haven't mentioned that yet.

 

Radio silence means not broadcasting.  You should be able to receive info from your team, just not give any info to them.

[Zathras_Grimm]

I've decided to take a break from the game for a while. However, how would I have countered RPF:

 

Either drop back closer to your support (if you have any; things like caps seem to act like a quarantine zone to some ships lol) , most of the time you can guesstimate where your enemy DD is, so you can have a good go at making sure his RPF looks as though its pointing at your CA rather than you. Of course staying back doesn't help in the 'race' to cap.

 Second, if you have a second DD both go in. This could trap the enemy into revealing himself with your 2 DDs ready to pounce (unless there are 2 of them lol).

 

 

I have nothing for the end game strategy. I would/used try and take a ship out or steal a cap, not now RPF is in game, the enemy knows where you are and the nerfs to torps and the way ships can dodge torps normally, you'll have little chance hitting them when they're coming straight for you.

 

Had a really good game yesterday, 18 points in it in the end, really close.  All about deciding to attack or cap etc. unfortunately RPF has ruined that end of game excitement and turned it into a 'chase the remaining ship Turkey Shoot'.

 

I'm sure more tricks will emerge as time goes by; good luck.

[Nechrom]

It's more or less impossible to "counter" RPF for a solo player, but you can use it to get some info yourself in many cases.

Noticing when you get detected/undetected and keeping an eye on the radar can give you hints as to who has the skill and if you don't see anyone who fits the criteria then you can make an educated guess where the undetected DD who has the skill is located.

You can also bait bigger ships like cruisers and BBs who has the skill by flanking around but staying well away from any radar/fighter/hydro and keep being a threat which they have to take into consideration and not just being able to focus on minimizing damage from your teammates. So you're not only spotting them but also pushing them to make sub-optimal maneuvers.

[HidesHisFace]

My counter to it?

Not playing and keeping my wallet shut, plain and simple. 

I do not enjoy playing with wallhacks around - developer's work should be removing potential hacks and exploits, not adding them.

[AwesomeChicken]

That's simple: introduce something like "Radio silence" you can toggle with "O" (similiar to AA/secondary switch on "P").

Switch it on and you can no longer be spotted by RDF, however you do not receive any spotting dmg for the time its active.

No need to make it a consumable.
 

[jure_eruj]

This will never happen because BB snowflakes will start crying all over the forums again.

[Thorontir]

There is one, very efficient counter to RPF - play BB! In most cases you wouldn't be the warship enemy is locating or if you're then you do not really care about it. In best case, some juicy cruiser will come to you looking for a DD. 

 

[WashedandDeceased]

New consumables aside, maybe DDs should go in two at a time to confuse RPF, or rely on a stealthy cruiser nearby? Personally I intend to sail my Belfast near my DDs and hope to offer them my support..

[VC381]

RPF becomes useless if it's pointing at a mass of ships, some of which the enemy can see anyway. It gives little to no information in that situation. God forbid the game should encourage sticking together.

 

To be honest, those solo-DD flanks are a frustrating tactic to everyone except the user and are unrealistic to boot. I won't miss them. At the very least, it might discourage those "I know best" type DD captains that go off on their own to hunt something irrelevant instead of sticking with the team where they're needed.

 

Until the other day I had no strong opinion on this skill. Maybe I'm just the contrary type but the more whine I read, the more I become persuaded it isn't actually that bad a skill to have in game...

[_Teob_]

RPF becomes useless if it's pointing at a mass of ships, some of which the enemy can see anyway. It gives little to no information in that situation. God forbid the game should encourage sticking together.

 

To be honest, those solo-DD flanks are a frustrating tactic to everyone except the user and are unrealistic to boot. I won't miss them. At the very least, it might discourage those "I know best" type DD captains that go off on their own to hunt something irrelevant instead of sticking with the team where they're needed.

 

Until the other day I had no strong opinion on this skill. Maybe I'm just the contrary type but the more whine I read, the more I become persuaded it isn't actually that bad a skill to have in game...

 

No, RPF coupled with other information (like if a cap is being contested) still gives you loads of information.

 

This game takes inspiration from reality at most - it's not meant to be realistic.

 

Solo DD flanks were a way to invest minimal resources to potentially break a stalemate (if you lose 1 DD in the process, it's probably not the end of the world, but if said DD manages a torp strike on some stationary BBs then they have to move). 

 

If a DD would "stick together" with their team nothing would ever get capped as most people do not go for caps in big boats. 

 

Also lastly, I can't tell you how many times I have stuck with the team and spotted enemy DDs only for my team to ignore them and for me to get blown up by enemy gun fire or for me to go into a cap only to see all my big boat "friends" running in the opposite direction. So the notion that I should be where the team needs me is laughable at best - most of the time the "team" has no idea where they are supposed to be and a lot of people sail around aimlessly firing their guns occasionally. 

I guess I am one of those "I know best" DD captains. 

 

I would suggest you try playing some more DD and then we can discuss your opinions again. 

[VC381]

Yes, my DD experience is a bit low but as a cruiser player I do try to support the DDs and I sometimes get solo caps in a cruiser after the DDs have run. I know teams aren't always great but if everyone played from the first second of the match with the assumption everyone else is bad nothing would work. I always give team mates the benefit of the doubt and if I end up somewhere without support I always take the blame on myself for not checking where my support was actually going.

 

It's easy to focus on negative experiences but doing your own thing doesn't make things better. The fact that in a DD you can pull it off is only due to the concealment, but stealth mechanics are inherently hard to balance and frustrating for the people on the receiving end so I think WG are going the right way with limiting them in situational ways.

 

If it slows the pace of the game a little as people approach caps more carefully and in groups instead of the race we have now that's actually good as well. At the moment the team with the best DDs usually wins, and usually that win is decided very early because of the cap race. That's not always fun for everyone else.

 

I believe no class should have the ability to make that much game impact from a solo play. If WG saw that too then they could have picked a really brutal solution, like global DD concealment nerf. But instead they gave people a tool, that they have to choose to use and make other sacrifices for it, that only situationally counters some unhealthy tactics but is actually weak against generic good gameplay/teamwork and therefore encourages it in opponents. That's actually not terrible game design, at least I can understand the logic.

[Jethro_Grey]

Yes, my DD experience is a bit low but as a cruiser player I do try to support the DDs and I sometimes get solo caps in a cruiser after the DDs have run. I know teams aren't always great but if everyone played from the first second of the match with the assumption everyone else is bad nothing would work. I always give team mates the benefit of the doubt and if I end up somewhere without support I always take the blame on myself for not checking where my support was actually going.

 

It's easy to focus on negative experiences but doing your own thing doesn't make things better. The fact that in a DD you can pull it off is only due to the concealment, but stealth mechanics are inherently hard to balance and frustrating for the people on the receiving end so I think WG are going the right way with limiting them in situational ways.

 

If it slows the pace of the game a little as people approach caps more carefully and in groups instead of the race we have now that's actually good as well. At the moment the team with the best DDs usually wins, and usually that win is decided very early because of the cap race. That's not always fun for everyone else.

 

I believe no class should have the ability to make that much game impact from a solo play. If WG saw that too then they could have picked a really brutal solution, like global DD concealment nerf. But instead they gave people a tool, that they have to choose to use and make other sacrifices for it, that only situationally counters some unhealthy tactics but is actually weak against generic good gameplay/teamwork and therefore encourages it in opponents. That's actually not terrible game design, at least I can understand the logic.

 

You make the assumption that the new skills encourage teamplay.

 

They will not as all the tools needed for teamplay were already in the game ever since it went live, it's just that players found new ways to abuse mechanics to create a $hitty meta.

There will be rarely if ever teamplay enough - apart from Divisions.

 

WG heard the complains, analized the data and drew the wrong conclusions, which is why we have new stupid skills nobody wants to have.

RPF completly screws over an entire class of ships, not to mention everybiody who does not use it.

[Zathras_Grimm]

Yes, my DD experience is a bit low but as a cruiser player I do try to support the DDs and I sometimes get solo caps in a cruiser after the DDs have run. I know teams aren't always great but if everyone played from the first second of the match with the assumption everyone else is bad nothing would work. I always give team mates the benefit of the doubt and if I end up somewhere without support I always take the blame on myself for not checking where my support was actually going.

 

It's easy to focus on negative experiences but doing your own thing doesn't make things better. The fact that in a DD you can pull it off is only due to the concealment, but stealth mechanics are inherently hard to balance and frustrating for the people on the receiving end so I think WG are going the right way with limiting them in situational ways.

 

If it slows the pace of the game a little as people approach caps more carefully and in groups instead of the race we have now that's actually good as well. At the moment the team with the best DDs usually wins, and usually that win is decided very early because of the cap race. That's not always fun for everyone else.

 

I believe no class should have the ability to make that much game impact from a solo play. If WG saw that too then they could have picked a really brutal solution, like global DD concealment nerf. But instead they gave people a tool, that they have to choose to use and make other sacrifices for it, that only situationally counters some unhealthy tactics but is actually weak against generic good gameplay/teamwork and therefore encourages it in opponents. That's actually not terrible game design, at least I can understand the logic.

 

Do you have the stats for torp kills in game? Is it that OP?

 

'Frustrating' is not the same as broken. Are you seriously saying a player now needs to know an enemy DD might be in the cap! Or if their flank is open the enemy may exploit it? That is where you think 'tactical' and make decisions. There is always a risk it might not work, but thats war lol. Not with RPF, I know someones in the cap, I know where they are!

 

Yesterday I was in a game, at front, when I noticed our base was unprotected (everyone had pushed forward). I knew there was still an enemy DD about. We were on route to entering their base but it woud be close.

I doubled back so that if their DD did get our base before we got into theirs, I could at least reset clock and secure win.

 

It is a tactical decision made at the time. You look around and say 5hit we could get our collective shorts pulled over our heads!

 

As it was he did not go to our base, he tried to get more kills. But that 'possibility' during the battle was great!

 

With RPF I don't have to think what the enemy might be doing....it tells me!

 

All the tricks you can deploy to overcome RPF aside, why introduce something that ruins those kind of tactical/ yet 'Hail Mary' pull a win out the bag situations?

 

I think it's a shame thats all. 

[Myrmix]

The only way to counter it, is to use it yourself.