The golden rule, never go first?

[Thracen]

I can't think of a situation where you aren't better off being 1 to 2 km behind someone else. So put very simply why go first?

 

I do it because it's fun and I hope to lead a team on to points, but I know I earn more credits and exp following others, waiting for ships to trade off, thinning the battlefield allowing a more skilled player room to maneuver without giving broadside.

 

I know that spotting credits and exp was introduced, but of course I have haven't noticed it since it was purposely tuned for aggressive players to get no extra benefit but to punish campers into changing tac. 

 

So why do you go first? When are the best opportunities to go forward? How do you go about breaking down that big initial ball of ships? I look forward to some interesting thoughts and maybe the odd brief entertaining tale or two.

[Vaderan]

Although i am not taking part in the very popular RPF whine these days, with the upcoming implementation of this perk, i´d say: there is no reason to go in first with any class any more. The players who go in first, should/or need to be those of the lowest value for the team. Sounds odd, but it´s the sad truth. Due to the lack of teamplay, whoever is spotted first, will receive the first hail of focus fire.

During the firsts seasons of ranked battle, whenever i used to play a BB, i considered myself in the position of a leader, pushing in hard and focused, hoping to inspire my team. The result was always the same: being the first focused down, left alone and unsupported. My BB was a huge target for any gun within range, and RNG didn´t even allow for proper selfdefense, messing up even the best aimed shots.

When i changed my tactics to be a cowardly BB, leaving the pushes to my team and playing the support role, keeping my ship out of range for the bunch of enemies guns and leaving the tanking to classes which weren´t supposed to do so, i suddenly started to gain much more damage and kills, finishing off damaged opponents and securing victory on a regular base (well, for those few games i kept playing, at least).

So, never go in first has become the first rule of combat for me. Whenever me (and my division) stick to this rule, we are very likely to win. Whenever i/we belong to the first casulties, the game usually is lost. And still, despite this rule, we too often end up in the front lines, since just everyone appears to try and stick to the "never be the first" rule.

However, if WG wants to change this behaviour, and wants to push the BBs into the first position as tanks, they have to come up with better stuff than what they tried with the latest updates. RPF won´t help anything aswell...

[Hedgehog1963]

I play stealthy DDs a fair bit.  I have to go first.

 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

I can't think of a situation where you aren't better off being 1 to 2 km behind someone else. So put very simply why go first?

 

I do it because it's fun and I hope to lead a team on to points, but I know I earn more credits and exp following others, waiting for ships to trade off, thinning the battlefield allowing a more skilled player room to maneuver without giving broadside.

 

I know that spotting credits and exp was introduced, but of course I have haven't noticed it since it was purposely tuned for aggressive players to get no extra benefit but to punish campers into changing tac. 

 

So why do you go first? When are the best opportunities to go forward? How do you go about breaking down that big initial ball of ships? I look forward to some interesting thoughts and maybe the odd brief entertaining tale or two.

I would always go first in my Japanese or American DDs, as this allowed me to spot and screen for CA/CL and BBs.  

 

My opinion: some Cruisers and Battleships are reluctant to move forward because of the uncertainly of what the will face in the way of opposition.  Battleships in particular, while able to take considerable damage, are unable to extract themselves from a bad situation easily.   If I scout out a flank and the BBs can see they face limited amount of enemy forces they will often adopt a more aggressive stance, which will increase the likelihood of winning.  

 

Note: it doesn't always work, as some players are too risk adverse. 

[Thracen]

Yes, there is no doubt DDs are natural leaders in terms of class, however I find I'm always much better off behind another dd when I'm in mine. The russians don't have the stealth to close and you are much better off with a sneaky spotter giving you the range advantage. The ijns really benefit from having a us DD up front for that long smoke and gun power. US dds need spotters to sit effectively in smoke. Throw in RDF. hydro and radar and you are always better off behind a canary.

 

Maybe I'm just commenting on team work, but even so I think the benefit for the tail man seems to far outweigh a lead ship. Of Course the ideal solution is rotation sharing damage and focus. I don't think I'll be mocked for saying this is a rare ideal.

[Aotearas]

Problem with being the tail end is you only get to pick on seconds.

First one's into the breach not only get the lion's share of enemy attention, they also tend to be the first to exploit opportunities such as an unaware ship broadsiding that an ally just slightly down the line might not have an angle on.

 

It's all just a means of juggling your survivability vs your lethalty. If you die early, you do little damage. If you hang back too much, you do little damage. Finding the balance between what your ship can take and how much you can dish out in return is what should dictate your actions.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Mid Teir

 

I can understand Russian DDs staying a little back, but with my Japanese DDs I need to break the other teams DD concealment and allow the CA/CL, BBS and DD gunboats to take them out.  A few lucky torpedo shots at the enemy cruisers or battleships is nice too.

 

US DDs I like to move forward and bully any DDs that want to contest the cap.  Throw down a gauntlet.

 

Note: this works fairly well as long as your team moves up and attacks the enemy ships. If they don't, thing can get bad fairly quickly.  ;)

[Thracen]

Problem with being the tail end is you only get to pick on seconds.

 

I don't think that's overly true, I find picking up more damage behind firing second, most players will take a salvo then open up to get their rear guns firing. When they swing out after the leads fire is when I take my shots, more pens, more damage. I'm not talking about camping the corners, I'm talking about running just a tad behind a front man.

 

Culiacan makes a good points, by the time you take the lead in most ships your fate is sealed by your allies deciding to follow, or well not. Fast ships leave ships behind easily and slower ships can't make the turn when they realise they've no friends. Another argument, and a strong one for going second.

[Fizzy_Odin]

I always fall into that trap, even if I wait and go after first 2 min i will get myself in "lets go mates" and than after I'am focused by at lest 5 ships and kill 1-2 or dam most of them and trust I will have support until i repair myself a bit - I turn behind just to see all BBs run away as fast as they can, if only players would see opportunity in that I take all focus on me and ny being tenk giving them chance to  shoot at someone on broadside ( because turing to shoot at me ) but no, they will run and don't look back  That just make me sad..  

 

I found that only DD will see opportunity to try to torp someone or even once in 10/15 battles will try to protect me with smoke cloud, but BB player are most pussy players of them all and I can't by the love of God understand why - ok maybe if you are IJN BB I will understand but when KM BB run away, man ufffff.

 

Being KM you will most benefit in under 10/12km range and that is why some players "rush" and ofc there is adrenalin and i found that adrenalin is most fun game will give you so I don't know why players run for cover ( especially BBs, and cruiser if you are in DD need a support to cap ) 

 

Also I found taht game is more rewarding to players that will be more min in game, they can do nothing to help team, just sailing and saty alive to the end or just die among last game will give them more xp - I have seen that hundredths of time 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

 

...Fast ships leave ships behind easily and slower ships can't make the turn when they realise they've no friends...

Also, low concealment ships like Japanese DDs can often times recover their concealment, and then re-position themselves to a better tactical location.  With BBs, it is a lot harder to... in some cases impossible. 

 

 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

... DD ... will try to protect me with smoke cloud...

This is a tough one.  Dropping smoke for a BB that is in dire need (defensive smoke) is fairly obvious, if you can get there in time.  It is also satisfying to watch a BB on the verge of destruction, put out fires, heal up, and then return to the battle.  The enemy team can not be happy.  Rarely does a BB  not take advantage of this.

 

 

Offensive smoke is entirely different.  When it works it is so very powerful, but more often than not the BB ignores the smoke because they have other plans.  

[Thracen]

Most of the time when I ask a wounded BB to slow so I can smoke them they plough on oblivious, some of the time I catch up anyway and smoke them and they continue on straight through at fulls speed to their deaths. It's so painful wasting a smoke on nothing. . 

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Most of the time when I ask a wounded BB to slow so I can smoke them they plough on oblivious, some of the time I catch up anyway and smoke them and they continue on straight through at fulls speed to their deaths. It's so painful wasting a smoke on nothing. . 

 

Since this is the EU, I am not sure all players on my team can read English.  Plus, in the heat of battle I think some of the BBs I drop smoke for just don't see it.  Multiple fires, shells raining from many directions, damage control on cool down, and trying to aim and fire your guns to eliminate some of these threats... it can be overwhelming. 

 

Over course, some may never have played a DD (or only a limited amount) and don't understand the value of smoke.  I can't see anyone consciously turning down defensive smoke when in desperate need. 

 

Note: wasting smoke sucks.

[Thracen]

It is an oversight that there is not shortcut for deploying consumables, that would eliminate the language barrier as they are auto translated I assume?

[eliastion]

Stealthy DDs are better off going first IF they can count on support (or handle themselves in particular match-up). Spot while unspotted, let your support engage (preferably support means gunboats, don't count on cruisers too much as they are further back AND don't draw attention so much) - only then you open fire to dispatch enemy DDs quicker.

[Venatacia]

Wonder how much of an impact this new rpf skill will have because once people start realising they will be spotted first and even by how many ships with the other new skill are spotting them, this is going to be a huge camp fest. May even see people pushing people out from behind islands. You go first - no - you go first because there guns will already be aiming at me.

[Aotearas]

 

I don't think that's overly true, I find picking up more damage behind firing second, most players will take a salvo then open up to get their rear guns firing. When they swing out after the leads fire is when I take my shots, more pens, more damage. I'm not talking about camping the corners, I'm talking about running just a tad behind a front man.

 

Culiacan makes a good points, by the time you take the lead in most ships your fate is sealed by your allies deciding to follow, or well not. Fast ships leave ships behind easily and slower ships can't make the turn when they realise they've no friends. Another argument, and a strong one for going second.

 

The truthfulness of my point varies from situation to situation.

 

Anyhow the crux of my argument is that there is no such thing as going first or not. There's only going into something you can't handle or not. A BB can push aggressively against 2+ cruisers, but a cruiser can't push aggressively into 2+ BBs. Knowing your limits and your potential is what's important, not whether you have a meatshield in front of you or not.

 

And reluctancy to be the first one in is something that can very easily spiral out of control when no one wants to be the first guy, ending in games where one team hardly ever leaves their spawn zone and just lets the enemy team control the entire map, which more often than not is giving away a major advantage.

[waxx25]

I can't think of a situation where you aren't better off being 1 to 2 km behind someone else. So put very simply why go first?

 

I do it because it's fun and I hope to lead a team on to points, but I know I earn more credits and exp following others, waiting for ships to trade off, thinning the battlefield allowing a more skilled player room to maneuver without giving broadside.

 

I know that spotting credits and exp was introduced, but of course I have haven't noticed it since it was purposely tuned for aggressive players to get no extra benefit but to punish campers into changing tac. 

 

So why do you go first? When are the best opportunities to go forward? How do you go about breaking down that big initial ball of ships? I look forward to some interesting thoughts and maybe the odd brief entertaining tale or two.

 

i do it because im not a [edited],

[GulvkluderGuld]

DDs are my main class and I absolutely hate going in first even though I'm fairly good at it.

 

Going in to cap first is another wholly different animal. Never do that without more backup than the enemy team can muster.

In this game I learned that engaging decisively is a very good way to die and lose. And getting spotted first has a tedency to get you decisively engaged.

 

Sailing wolfpacks (especially with a CA) can be very powerful though - especially if you can smoke it up before the bad guys see it.

 

My best example was back in ranked S3 around rank 7. Spawned south on Fault Line where the team traditionally take B.

Me and the Atlanta on the team decided to challenge the enemy team for A.

So right at the corner around the island inside A i pop smoke, go full evasive while dropping torps.

The result? Sunk a DD with guns + 1 torp and a myoko 100-0 with torps before going down.

Meanwhile the atlanta wrecked another DD and damaged one more heavily before retreating.

The two of us won that game in 1 minute flat.

 

I bet the next time I try anything like it, we will both die horribly.

And that is the crux of going in first - it is a high risk - high reward play.

Most of the time it is also the most fun!

 

I would always go first in my Japanese or American DDs, as this allowed me to spot and screen for CA/CL and BBs.  

 

My opinion: some Cruisers and Battleships are reluctant to move forward because of the uncertainly of what the will face in the way of opposition.  Battleships in particular, while able to take considerable damage, are unable to extract themselves from a bad situation easily.   If I scout out a flank and the BBs can see they face limited amount of enemy forces they will often adopt a more aggressive stance, which will increase the likelihood of winning.  

 

Note: it doesn't always work, as some players are too risk adverse. 

 

Well said sir

 

From Randoms

[Kuningas_Arthur]

I play DDs and Jap BBs, so I'm either the first in line or the very last. Cruisers never really motored my boat so I've mostly ignored them, the only CL line I've taken to play is the RN one, because it's closer to DD gameplay than any of the other lines.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

Wonder how much of an impact this new rpf skill will have because once people start realising they will be spotted first and even by how many ships with the other new skill are spotting them, this is going to be a huge camp fest. May even see people pushing people out from behind islands. You go first - no - you go first because there guns will already be aiming at me.

RPF might be an issue, because when I tried it out on the Test Serve, I found it eliminated Japanese DD stealth.

 

In a normal game, I can take a tier 6 Japanese DD into a cap and defeat a Kiev 9 out of 10 times.  All I need to do is break his concealment and let the ships on my team destroy him or drive him away.  The Kiev while significantly faster has no idea in what direction I am and will find it difficult to close.  The same can be done against American DDs, but since the differences in concealment are much closer, it is much harder.  But with RDF, the other DDs will know where you are, and where to charge.

 

I belief RDF will effect the ability of Japanese DDs to contest caps.  

[jure_eruj]

I always go to caps when I am playing Jap DDs, I guess that will change now. I will let some other poor schmuck to go for caps and get rekt. With stealth taken out of the game, this is a logical consequence.

 

The game will be so much better now because we will all camp and snipe from distance (in case of BBs) or invisifire. I gave BBs players a week before snowflakes start crying again about something being OP (BTW, everything that scratches their precious ships is obviously OP).

[kfa]

I usually go in and brawl for a cap point in my BB IF we are certeanly going to lose otherwise, especially if i have a division mate with me. It usually triggers the whole team, and we tend to win (although i almost always end up dieing in the progress).

Otherwise its the DDs job they should always be in the front line.

[Zathras_Grimm]

Play IJN DD, go forward scout, pop smoke, harass.

 

However, RPF included, there has been a string of nerfs to the ship class I play. Spotter aircraft (now x2 and slower (more spot time)), Fighter aircraft, CV aircraft, Hydro (Hydro and Vigilance), Radar, more gunship DDs, nerfs to torpedoes, torpedo armour belts. This is on top of those good players out there that can actually play the ship they choose.

 

In the end my ship class and nation uses stealth, I use 7km torpedoes (yes and my guns if situation arises), but I have begun to dread every patch update as all it does is add another negative to the stealth style of gameplay. My DD has lowest HP as I am supposed to stay hidden, that used to be a possibility if you played well. Now there are just too many anti-stealth elements in game - caps? Don't make me laugh, to even consider going into a cap I have to know I will have CV planes fly over, enemy gunship DDs pushing in, a Belfast hiding behind an island. I will be seen, I will take fire; if this has now become a certainty and I have the lowest HP, why would I bother WG? So the stealth ship now stays back as it is too costly to scout, its 7km range is too short, and there are just too many things that spot torpedoes and once spotted they remain spotted.

 

I'll have a few games more, then take a break when the patch rolls out. Hopefully the game will stay strong.

[ColonelPete]

Winning is always better. If everyone in your team obeyed that rule, you would always lose domination matches.