does WG want to make the game more campy?

[Ataxia]

If you want to see more cruisers reduce BB damage simple

 

I have no problems with a BB hitting me...it is the fact that they delete me in 1 or 2 hits that is the problem. so reduce the amount of damage those salvos do to a cruiser.

There is nothing worse than being spotted at the begining of a match by a DD and 10 seconds later you have 3k hp left., and yes that was angled and it happens a lot. With only 3k hp left there's only so much more you can contribute and it just leaves you feeling frustrated.

If people aren't getting deleted so quickly they are more likely to play more.

 

it should be more like the damage relationship between a cruiser and a destroyer. Cruiser doesn't do anywhere near as high consistent damage to a Destroyer, as a Battleship does to a cruiser.

 

[SovietFury43]

 

I don't think so.  I haven't played in a few hours.

 

Must have been somebody else wih Mexico in his name then.

[lezantas26]

imo they should make shell penetration dropping in far distances more the higher the caliber. so if a CA is good at 10km, then BB should offer a similar "devastating fire" range. make it so BB cant get lucky lolpens at 20km. i play BB, its my second most played class, and such occurences are rare-ish and quite funny, but they are trully stupid and rng dependant. i had times that i missed, but 2 shells got wide and double citadel a ship that i failed to hit, leaving him with couple hundred hp, basicaly ending the game for him

 

BUT if you are going to do such changes, then something should be done about CA potency to harass non stop BB. CA is my most played class, and even now i have no problem burning BB to death by staying at distance and wiggle, so you can imagine how bad the situation would be if CA would simply stay at 15km and fire away without the risk of a citadel (most of BB damage currently)

 

i like the overpens as they are now. yes, they are frustrating when a BB salvo does weak damage and CA just torp you to death, but on the other hand you cant make BB deleting everything at short distances. most of the time, a CA that offers a broadside it goes down, the chances for overpens only are small enough that imo dont warrant a change

[SovietFury43]

imo they should make shell penetration dropping in far distances more the higher the caliber. so if a CA is good at 10km, then BB should offer a similar "devastating fire" range. make it so BB cant get lucky lolpens at 20km. i play BB, its my second most played class, and such occurences are rare-ish and quite funny, but they are trully stupid and rng dependant. i had times that i missed, but 2 shells got wide and double citadel a ship that i failed to hit, leaving him with couple hundred hp, basicaly ending the game for him

 

BUT if you are going to do such changes, then something should be done about CA potency to harass non stop BB. CA is my most played class, and even now i have no problem burning BB to death by staying at distance and wiggle, so you can imagine how bad the situation would be if CA would simply stay at 15km and fire away without the risk of a citadel (most of BB damage currently)

 

i like the overpens as they are now. yes, they are frustrating when a BB salvo does weak damage and CA just torp you to death, but on the other hand you cant make BB deleting everything at short distances. most of the time, a CA that offers a broadside it goes down, the chances for overpens only are small enough that imo dont warrant a change

 

"then something should be done about CA potency to harass non stop BB." Isn't the new Fire Prevention skill exactly that?

[lezantas26]

 

"then something should be done about CA potency to harass non stop BB." Isn't the new Fire Prevention skill exactly that?

 

dunno, have not tested it. but imo skill trees should offer choises, not clear picks. i would much prefer buff BB fire resistance or limit fires to 3, and remove the skill for something more classes can benefit from (a cv one maybe? ;))

[Date_A_Bullet]

 There is no way around it, the BB meta is the root of all those problems.

 Nope, seen quite a lot matches with only 2 BBs each team or even less (in the middle of the night it can happen), and guess what:

 

The cruisers still camp.

 

Try to play games at these times by yourself if you can and watch it with you own eyes.

 

 When a cruiser dies, in the most cases you just have to look at the minimap and see how the evil RNG striked the poor cruiser mate:

A black cruiser icon at the open; showing broadside to serval enemy battleships.

 

---

 

What Wargaming really need to change is:

Stop nerfing the god damn stealth gameplay.

 

- Situational Awareness for everyone
- YOLO radar that goes tru islands and has 0 counterplay besides the cooldown
- BBs being effective DD hunters with Hydro and strong secondaries (instead of giving them the historical strong torpedo protection - noooo, give them Hydro, which can be used as offensie skill too)

- broken AA-balance that makes DDs the most attactive target for carriers

- and now: radio position finding (since all the previous stealth-counters cleeeeaaaarly made the game more dynamic, another stealth-counter is needed!)

 

That are the reasons more and more people camp, and not just the Camper-Kevin who camps anyway:

Even decent players are forced to play more passive, thanks to so much stealth-counters in the game.

 

Oh and btw:

Nerfs to the stealth-DDs means indirect buffs for the non-stealth-DDs.

Oh surprise, that mean the russian ones - that use speed instead of stealth as protection.

 

Sneaky way to secretly buff the stronk russian navy - well played Wargaming, well played.

 

[CleverViking]

Im genuinly really worried about what some bad cruiser and destroyer players want.. I keep reiterating this point, if you are getting deleted in a cruiser its your own fault. Battleships find it super hard to hit a decent cruiser player. While they are firing at you they are wasting potential damage they could be doing as you dodge it. I play Belfast and its one of the slowest ships to turn for a cruiser but hell, if i get wiped in that its my own fault. 

I've taken the liberty of bolding some key parts due to a lot of people in this thread have the tendency to just gloss over parts they don't like.

 

No offense m8, I know you have played this game more than me, but when you haven't even played the tiers where these problems crop up you can't really discuss it. T7 cruisers have an ok time and often are top tier, it's at T8 problems start. BBs aren't nearly as much as an issue on mid or low tiers, most people are talking about top tiers when they want BBs adjusted. When your highest played tier is T7 then you can' really talk about this with any authority.

 

If you've never played T8+ then ofc you rarely experience hits from 18km, ofc you think cruiser gameplay is fine. Let me just sum up some changes that happen at T8+ 

 

- in T8 most of your matches will be T10 matches, which means ships with ranges of 22km. Imagine sailing in a Mogami with 15.6km range and no repair

- Maps generally have much less cover in top tiers, this results in maps becoming shooting galleries, getting spotted in a CA will result in 3-4 BBs shooting at you (due to their range you're pretty much always in range)

- T8+ BBs have such high caliber guns that they will overmatch your armor at almost any angle, the dispersion that BBs like to defend themselves with only makes it harder to avoid the whole salvo. Keep in mind that when getting hit by a Yamato even 1 shell can take of a significant amount of health.

- Btw, Belfast is quite snappy and maneuverable, CAs have turning radiuses that almost rival BBs, the only difference is that 1 hit can damage you so much that you can't play normaly. Belfast has a typical 680m turning radius of CLs, Mogami has 750m. Rudder shift might be a bit high but it's a cruiser and it has smoke, hardly a good example.

- BBs often dominate high tier MM, avoiding a single BB is quite easy, even with the CAs with worse turning radiuses, it's another story when you have 4 or 5 in a row just waiting for you to turn. You can avoid 1 or 2, but when 4 are firing at you and you can get citted even when angled? The dispersion just makes dodging all of them even worse, as mentioned above. Losing 80% of your health due to randomly being spotted by an unexpected DD isn't uncommon even when angled.

 

A lot of this could actually be solved with making high tier maps have more concealment/islands and getting rid of the overhead view of spotter planes as this would force BBs to actually close in. The problem with that is that more islands would be a buff to DDs and you mileage may vary if that would be worth it. Another is to simply put a limit on BBs for top tiers, gameplay would be more dynamic if cruiser could move a bit more freely without "the hunt" being started.

 

Before angry pitchfork mobs point out I haven't played T8+ BBs, yes, that's true. But I've been on the receiving end of them a lot and you can't have played top tiers without feeling that BBs "take up too much space". 

[KaraMon]

 

This so much this. If BBs couldn't defend against CV attack personally, they wouldn't snipe, cause they'd die, CVs would be farming kills on them. They'd have to travel with cruisers, for their AA firepower, and that would mean getting in closer.

 

It was a year ago  , snipers were deleted by cariers .

 

Did BBabies try to stay with cruisers did they try to use AA skills and modules? No they cried enough so WG nerfed cariers into oblivion

[cro_pwr]

 

 

 

 

Baltimore, Des Moines, Hindeburg, Moskva and Zao would like to have a word with you.

 

 

 

As someone who owns Amagi, Yamato and Des Moines (sold Baltimore) I would like to have a word with that Amagi that took out 20k hp in a single salvo trough my Des Moines bow 2 days ago.

Also I would like to have a word with that Moskva that my Yamato citadeled trough the bow. Also I would like to have a word with god knows how much cruisers I've citadeled / took out half of their HP trough their deck from 20km away, trough their bows, trough their whatever from whatever distance

The ones that you mentioned are indeed a tanky cruisers (Moskva especially). But tanky =/= immune. They will survive a bit longer, untill RNG flips you a middle finger and you ask yourself what the heck did you do wrong...

[lezantas26]

 

As someone who owns Amagi, Yamato and Des Moines (sold Baltimore) I would like to have a word with that Amagi that took out 20k hp in a single salvo trough my Des Moines bow 2 days ago.

Also I would like to have a word with that Moskva that my Yamato citadeled trough the bow. Also I would like to have a word with god knows how much cruisers I've citadeled / took out half of their HP trough their deck from 20km away, trough their bows, trough their whatever from whatever distance

The ones that you mentioned are indeed a tanky cruisers (Moskva especially). But tanky =/= immune. They will survive a bit longer, untill RNG flips you a middle finger and you ask yourself what the heck did you do wrong...

 

at what range? around 10km is quite dangerous zone to be in, even in BB you get hit for over 10k damage while bow on. problem is with big range deletes in non broadside targets (if you offer a broadside you should still get punished)

[Dominico]

I can discuss it. I play I tier 9 matches. I play Battleships. I play cruisers.

 

If you are getting targeted by 4 or 5 Battleships in your cruiser in ANY TIER you are out of position. If you are getting hit regularly and citadelled you are not manouvering. The Belfast has bad turning (the turn is the rudder tjme it's pretty slow)

 

You have to be engaging enemies already engages by others not getting yourself so far out of place you become a target to the whole enemy team.

 

"I get killed all the time at long ranges the game is broken i blow up lots I have problems can we make it easier?"

 

"Maybe your positioning is bad? Or you lack awareness or just are not ready for high tier play? Others seem to cope. Could it be you?"

 

"Arggg don't tell me how to play I'm amazing I know all I don't listen to you."

 

"So as I was saying can we make it a bit easier I can't cope..."

 

Doesn't really make much sense...

[Dominico]

I don't want to be rude, but you don't know what you are talking about.

I don't know what I'm talking about when I say destroyers are the most maneuverable survivable ship... allrighty then. No..no you are right they aren't are they... ok I'll leave you guys to your own little world. Lmao

[cro_pwr]

 

at what range? around 10km is quite dangerous zone to be in, even in BB you get hit for over 10k damage while bow on. problem is with big range deletes in non broadside targets (if you offer a broadside you should still get punished)

 

The problem is that range does not matter, angle does not matter, time of day does not matter.

The way this game currently works is on a flip of a coin. If RNG hates you, you will eat a random citadel from 20km away even when angled (plunging fire, or god knows what), and then in next game you will point your bow on 5km away from enemy BB and delete him as a cruiser in a straight 1v1 fight bouncing 90% of his shells.

Thats the biggest issue, you never know will you get 0 damage, or citadel hit, and that works for both playing BBs and cruisers alike.

Few days ago I had a game when I brawled Des Moines and Hindenburg in my Yamato.

Fired 2 front gun on DM 5 km away from him, hit him with 4 shells for 0 damage (they penned, didn't bounce), then fired my back turret into Hindenburg that was just slightly angled (almost gave me full broadside) and he bounced all 3 of my Yamato shells from like 6 km away. And then they sank me... So yea, if RNGesus was with me, that would be 5 citadels in 10 seconds and 2 dead cruisers...

 

[SovietFury43]

I can discuss it. I play I tier 9 matches. I play Battleships. I play cruisers.

 

If you are getting targeted by 4 or 5 Battleships in your cruiser in ANY TIER you are out of position. If you are getting hit regularly and citadelled you are not manouvering. The Belfast has bad turning (the turn is the rudder tjme it's pretty slow)

 

You have to be engaging enemies already engages by others not getting yourself so far out of place you become a target to the whole enemy team.

 

"I get killed all the time at long ranges the game is broken i blow up lots I have problems can we make it easier?"

 

"Maybe your positioning is bad? Or you lack awareness or just are not ready for high tier play? Others seem to cope. Could it be you?"

 

"Arggg don't tell me how to play I'm amazing I know all I don't listen to you."

 

"So as I was saying can we make it a bit easier I can't cope..."

 

Doesn't really make much sense...

 

Aha... You are out of position against BBs that have 22km range and can shoot you pretty much anywhere on the map...

 

So tell us then pro (since you think you are good enough to teach everybody on here how to play) where are Cruisers supposed to be? The corner of the map at A1? So BBs with 22km range can't shoot them?

[Culiacan_Mexico]

I don't know what I'm talking about when I say destroyers are the most maneuverable survivable ship... allrighty then. No..no you are right they aren't are they... ok I'll leave you guys to your own little world. Lmao

 

Tier 6
Last two weeks

The highest survival rate of any DD (non-premium) 29%
The lowest survival rate of any DD (non-premium) 23%
The highest survival rate of any BB (non-premium) 43%
The lowest survival rate of any BB (non-premium) 41%

[cro_pwr]

 

Aha... You are out of position against BBs that have 22km range and can shoot you pretty much anywhere on the map...

 

So tell us then pro (since you think you are good enough to teach everybody on here how to play) where are Cruisers supposed to be? The corner of the map at A1? So BBs with 22km range can't shoot them?

 

22km? Oh boy, welcome to high tiers where you score double citadel from 25 km in Yamato

[Fizzy_Odin]

 

As someone who owns Amagi, Yamato and Des Moines (sold Baltimore) I would like to have a word with that Amagi that took out 20k hp in a single salvo trough my Des Moines bow 2 days ago.

Also I would like to have a word with that Moskva that my Yamato citadeled trough the bow. Also I would like to have a word with god knows how much cruisers I've citadeled / took out half of their HP trough their deck from 20km away, trough their bows, trough their whatever from whatever distance

The ones that you mentioned are indeed a tanky cruisers (Moskva especially). But tanky =/= immune. They will survive a bit longer, untill RNG flips you a middle finger and you ask yourself what the heck did you do wrong...

 

Cruiser on T8 are so broken that I decide i will not play them anymore until WG fix this, i will be in my BB or in DD -- in a CA you will get random citadel in any angle at any time from any distance and nothing will help you ( maybe a smoke but just for 2min or so and only RN and Kutuzov have smoke ).., in every battle i died from 2-3 shot in total, you will dodge some but than you will get 5k,15k,25k one cannonball not salvo

 

ATM  CA aka cruiser = RCS  = random citdaled ship

[ISDdriver]

 

I fully agree with the topic, see this problem myself a couple of days ago but had no response in the german part of the forums. However if it comes worse we could have a “camping bb, smoke meta”. Whoever comes out first to attack, is then focused down and die with low Ep. Not a thing most of us would enjoy.

 

The balance/ meta is not that bad right now.* I guess a changed matchmaker, able to wait some seconds more for a decent match, (with no hardcaps) would solve some of our current “BB problems”. Right now as a main BB player I see half the time a BB spam match and half the time a DD spam match. I don’t see the problem to “mix” those games into decent and more enjoyable games for players of each class, cause to less spam of one single class of ships.

 

* My personal wish would be a rework of the citadel mechanics. Something like less direct damage and more module damage would be nice. Right now a BB does to much or to less damage on a cruiser per slavo. The “ok salvos” are rare. You know rng, overpens or overkill. Something in between could be less frustrating for both sides.

 

[SovietFury43]

I fully agree with the topic, see this problem myself a couple of days ago but had no response in the german part of the forums. However if it comes worse we could have a “camping bb, smoke meta”. Whoever comes out first to attack, is then focused down and die with low Ep. Not a thing most of us would enjoy.

 

The balance/ meta is not that bad right now.* I guess a changed matchmaker, able to wait some seconds more for a decent match, (with no hardcaps) would solve some of our current “BB problems”. Right now as a main BB player I see half the time a BB spam match and half the time a DD spam match. I don’t see the problem to “mix” those games into decent and more enjoyable games for players of each class, cause to less spam of one single class of ships.

 

* My personal wish would be a rework of the citadel mechanics. Something like less direct damage and more module damage would be nice. Right now a BB does to much or to less damage on a cruiser per slavo. The “ok salvos” are rare. You know rng, overpens or overkill. Something in between could be less frustrating for both sides.

 

The reason matches look like that is because Carriers are not played any more, and because the Cruiser population is in decline.

 

BBs and DDs are the most played ships, and out of those German BBs (alone) are played almost twice more then all the three DD lines combined! When you let that sink in you realize how bad things really are. And with the next patch and its indirect BB buffs its going to be even worse. 

 

I don't know what Wargaming is thinking. Do they not see those numbers? Do they just not care?  

[Elenortirion]

 

well, if the CA is properly angled, the BB has a hard time to erase the CA.

 

 

unless wild overmatching/plunging fire appears to wreck your day...

 

I find it funny that in every thread I see that BB can erase cruisers in one slavo,yet I have never seen it. Yes,if a stupid cruiser goes straight and on constant speed,he will get citadel. So do not go in a straight line

 

it's funny that because of me observign what is going on the map I see it in like every second battle

and not in all cases it was "stupid cruiser going straight on constant speed" in many cases we was actually maneuvering and angling as much as he could

 

 Nope, seen quite a lot matches with only 2 BBs each team or even less (in the middle of the night it can happen), and guess what:

 

The cruisers still camp.

 

 

welp since I've bought yuubari I have had ample oportunity to play recently few t4 battles, and there was one thing that was just awesome there

 

there were consistently matches with 1-2BBs per side and guess what? looking at team movements these were the most active and agressive battles I have seen in quite a while, but then in higher tiers you don't meet these as often because when going up the tiers in cruiser line you are quickly taught that there is alot of BB who given a slightest opportunity will either outright erase you from the battle or will damage you so heavilly that they could just as well erase you from the battle

 

so here ya have the answer for you problem with high tier camping cruisers - with current meta in average match they must stay at borders of their ranges to even hope to survive and that one od match with only 1 or 2 BB does not happen often enought for anyone to really notice that it did happened.

 

but if those matches happened consistently instead of once in a lifetime in the midnight, then overtime cruiser would start to test out how much they can allow themselves for taking a risks...

 

 

random probably stupid idea: lets make battleships able to erase each other just as easy as they can erase cruisers and see what happens

 

 

The reason matches look like that is because Carriers are not played any more, and because the Cruiser population is in decline.

 

BBs and DDs are the most played ships, and out of those German BBs (alone) are played almost twice more then all the three DD lines combined! When you let that sink in you realize how bad things really are. And with the next patch and its indirect BB buffs its going to be even worse. 

 

I don't know what Wargaming is thinking. Do they not see those numbers? Do they just not care?  

 

they look at those numbers but because of no gameplay background for this numbers they misidentify causes and symptoms :/

[Date_A_Bullet]

 welp since I've bought yuubari I have had ample oportunity to play recently few t4 battles, and there was one thing that was just awesome there

 

Tier 4 is more dynamic in general no matter how much BBs are there.

When playing my Scharnhorst get getting matched in a T5-match with the obligatory 5BBs each team the battles are also more dynamic.

 

Conclusion: The number of BBs is not the root of camping.

 

 so here ya have the answer for you problem with high tier camping cruisers

 

Nope, i play all high-tier cruisers aggresive and iam quite successful with it.

Using cover with Des Moines, Smoke with Neptune/Minotaur and angling with the Hindenburg.

Especially since you dont get Full T10-BBs all the time, T8's are so often a filler in High-Tier matches - and no T8 BB has a chance against a skilled T10 cruiser player.

 

I wish i would have played the Hindenburg earlier with that tactic, it will take a while to pimp my earlier stats with her when i played her more campy.

Awful average results.

 

 ith current meta in average match they must stay at borders of their ranges to even hope to survive and that one od match with only 1 or 2 BB does not happen often enought for anyone to really notice that it did happened.

 

This is just wrong like ive said:

 

Go play high-tier battles at night, 1-2 BBs each side: camping cruisers everywhere.

Do it! Watch it by yourself if you dont believe me.

 

Iam quite a bit tired of cruisers using the mighty BBs (with theit 5 seconds main gun reload and their shells that fly with the speed of light and are sooo impossible to dodge from 15km and above) as an excuse for their cowardice. Its not like you can use cover, dodge/angle in time as cruiser or even go easy mode with the brits and smoke yourself up.

 

Thats why the most dead black cruiser icons on the minimap mostly look the same:

Open water, no cover, broadside to enemy BBs.

 

 

[SovietFury43]

 

Cruisers can't really camp at all, that's just stupid.

 

Cruisers don't have the range to sit back behind the battle and snipe, if they try they are not doing any damage.

 

[cro_pwr]

Cruisers can't really camp at all, that's just stupid.

 

Cruisers don't have the range to sit back behind the battle and snipe, if they try they are not doing any damage.

 

What cruisers?

t5-6 don't, at t7-8 some of them allready have huge range and ability to stealth fire, at t10 all of them can shoot from 18 km. (didn't check for all the numbers, but I think I'm not mistaken here)

The main problem is that t10 BBs also have a boost to range, and as I said, hitting something from 20km away isn't all that hard in a t10 BB.  So as soon as you get to lets say 16 km away from 1 BB and get detected, you can easily assume you are in a firing range of at least 3 more enemy BBs, and you probably won't even see 2 of them, or their shells going your way.

[celephais]

The Meta seems to be very heavy BB and not just that, but i also see in many occasions less and less CV and DD play. From mid tier up at least. Implementing RPF will be, i think, the death of those 2, the final nail in the coffin. I am baffled by this decision. They do not see the Meta? Their Meta.

 

And btw, if WG is supporting Teamplay, then they should also reconsider their mission objectives.....Think harder, think clearly, think deeper WG. GL.

[shadowwolf9705]

well i still see a good amount of DD players, and CVs well the biggest issue with CVs is that they are boring to play and are the only class in the game which is in dire need of a tutorial cause they are too diffrent from the other classe, you play a DD CA or BB well WASD for movement, you have guns for point and click with time you will learn how to aim on CVs on the other hand hello and welcome to an lowtech RTS were we do not even tell you the most controll keys to correctly use your planes and and how you position your carrier etc etc etc.