Maybe put a limit on amount on BBs in a match WG?

[steviln]

 

A game where BB outnumber cruisers and DD is far too unrealistic for me, each BB should be forced to face multiple CA plus a dozen DD, also BB AA is totally unrealistic CV should absolutely own any BB not covered by friendly fighters, and the games economy is totally wrong, a DD costs almost as much as a BB to but and repair in what world?  Put the repair cost for BB up to realistic levels, say 10,000,000 credits per game.

 

If you want to argue for realism then don't cherry pick the bits of reality that suit you.

 

My point is that aircraft were so effective during WW2, that a game that combine surface combat ships and carriers is not really a good idea. CVs should not have been included in the game in the first place. There should be seperate games on carrier battles and surface engagements. And if you look at the Battle of Jutland, which really is the only battle where the battleships fleets of two nations came out in force, the BBs including BCs actually outnumbered the cruisers! And when you look at the surface actions, battleships seemed to mostly be able to dodge the enemy torpedoes. The torpedoes actually had more success against destroyers and cruisers. 

[steviln]

 

True, but other changes could be made to make top tiers more cruiser friendly without even touching BBs (like introducing more cover/islands on high tier maps). A big part of the problem with BBs is that they don't have to maneuver at all due to their range and can just wait for something to get spotted. As a cruiser captain, my enjoyment of high-tier matches are admittedly more dependent on the map than on enemy team comp.

 

But at longe range, battleships will not hit very much. That is really the biggest issue with BB camping. It makes them stay at long range and really not do to much damage for much of the match. I do however agree about the islands. There should be more islands on high tier maps so it gets easier for the ships to get close to the enemy. 

[shadowwolf9705]

as a mostly cruiser and battleship captain i think a class cap for BBs and DDs would be the best soultion cause cruisers should be the most numberous ship in the game to increase the movement ingame as they are the most versatile class and can support everything and everybody and because games with huige numbers of the other classe end in the case of the DDs in a smoke campfest because every dd cap nowadays pops smoke when they only see their lamp going on while with huge numbers of BBs it depends if you have a bunch of aggressive BB captains or 4-5 bordercampers, you have the first the game becomes fun and mobile, the later bunch of guys is a thing that makes suiciding an intresting alternative to 15minutes sitting on a cap and losing (especialy bad in non domination games) and i am honest here my cruisers profit from offensive BBs the most as i can do my job easier and that is how it should be

 

now lets talk about nerfing BBs, there is the problem that nerfing BBs on their stats will kill of the BB players that go on the offensive in the most cases (the good and progame experience BB players) and will justify all kinds of camping, so lets see what we can do and what not:

 

nerf mobility: will end in BBs having to beg their teams to stay with them cause they can not react to the team anymore and well we know the teams in wows they well not help anybody cause it might go against their idea of how to play the game or even make them not be able to farm damage in their opinion (notable showcases: the DD that says spotting the other dds so it dies is not needed cause he rather spams torps to pad his oh so great stats and the Cruiser player that says: i should stay behind the BBs and give supporting fire nah i rather play island camping cause muh damage and mimimi i could get oneshoted when driving broadside which lets me ask how the [edited]do you get oneshoted if not for enoumous bad luck cause my CAs are rarely taken out by BBs in one salov when i move them properly and if they are i mostly get 10 flags)

 

nerf health armor etc: well another thing that will turn people into campers cause why should  i do my job on the frontline as breakthrough unit when i cant survive it bad for attackers a justification for camping so a no go for that

 

Firepower: another thing you cant really nerf as Bb firepower is already a slot machine that can make 20km sniping as effective as 10 km brawling (i had games were i was forced to 20km sniping and the amount of citadels i shot was laughable compared to 10-12 km engagements), what can be done of course is adjusting it, lower the firepower on 15km+ and increase it below with an small close quarter reward with ribbon thrown on top, so you get all that campers to the frontline cause they see its getting them something while long range camping is far less rewarding and it would cut down the issue of too long living BBs as mostly the campers are the ones that live extremely long

 

AA guns: well you cant nerf the basic AA on most BBs as unmododed they are just preventing a carrier from just circling the BB for eternity and waiting for the best drop (no a cv should not be able to cicle a BB 4-5 times until he can put 80% damage in it because he cant properly plan a BBs course ahead), solution is to scale down the effect of skill on BB AA guns or removing the AA firepower increasing modules in my opinion

 

and lastly if you really think that nerfing BBs will cut down there numbers you are wrong, cause they always will be the most popular class just ask somebody on the street for the best know WW2 warships 90% he will say names like: Bismark, Hood, Yamato, Scharnhorst, Prince of Wales, Arizona, Iowa, Missouri etc. and everybody wants to play something famous and such wording reminds me actually of people who thought that too in some RTS games like: Wehrmacht is op cause its more played then sowjets, Space Marines are op cause they are more played and a lot more of those stuff while they were wrong by a large margin it was just that people prefered other sides and some thought oh they dont like my side cause its UP even if their side properly played was extremely powerfull (especially considering the first scenario)

[steviln]

 

Clear Sky, in my opinion, is a medal that ruins lower tier carrier play and is one that is far more difficult if not nigh impossible to get without a carrier. It's a medal that encourages the higher tiered players to go down and use their superior experience and strategic awareness to bully newer players and chasing them away from the class. I think it should be something like "shoot down the equivalent number of planes as the total plane number of the enemy CV" which would both allow it to be received more often and allow surface ships to earn the medal.

 

If newer players are bullied about from carriers, that is excellent! And what is wrong with gameplay that make the players use their fighters for what they were built for rather than scoutplanes?

[IanH755]

 

The problem for us discussing this, is that we only have anecdotal evidence not hard stats. The devs have a target for the percentage of each class played in relation to each other. If the server stats indicate that these numbers are out of kilter, then they will make the appropriate changes. Obviously, it takes a lot of time before a pattern develops. The other issue is that the stats get skewed by the introduction of new lines. Obviously, when the DEBBs were introduced, the numbers of BBs shot up and I still think we are seeing the effect of that now.

 

I don't believe they will. It has been 6 months since the DE BB release made a dramatic change to the meta and all that has been changed is DD nerfs. Now maybe they're just reacting very slowly to events (i.e.maybe the current DD nerfs are legacy from the issues of torp spam from a year+ ago) so in another 6 months time we may see some form of similar action for BB's but I honestly don't see that WG even recognise that the current BB meta is bad for the game.

 

As i mentioned above, if nothing is done (and I don't believe it will be) the game will die out over the next 2-3 years.

[steviln]

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_off_Samar

 

There's also another battle where a pair of USN DDs sailed next to each other, and fooled Japanese radars on cruisers into thinking it was only one ship, which lead to the Japanese taking some hits then retreating.

 

Also, lovely as you happen to take literally the only time period and basically the only battle where dreadnoughts where dominant.

Now look at every other naval battle after WWI, and see that a big lumbering ship that's easily detectable with both radar, optics and planes is a ridiculous choice. 

 

BBs were nothing more than ground pounders and propaganda tools, hence why everyone was smart enough to scrap BBs being laid down in the early 40s in order to convert them in CVs.

In the game, they're overbuffed moron machines that break a LOT multiplayer gaming conventions, which are in place for good ****ing reasons.

 

As I have mentioned earlier, the battle of Leyte is special and does not prove your case, as I have explained earlier, only one of the sides had effective carriers. The japanese were desperate and deployed capital ships in a way they would never have deployed them under normal circumstances. Jutland were the only battleship engagement of size because in most other circumstances, the strengths of the fleets were to uneqal so the weaker party did not dare to deploy their surface fleets in an attempt to get a decisive engagement. And in the surface battles were battleships were present, they also dominated those battles. 

 

Off course carriers were superior, but they were so superior that a game that contains player controlled carriers should not include player controlled surface ships. 

 

And actually, what is wrong with one game breaking the standard MMO conventions? Especially when they include classes of ships that were not balanced in the first place. Cruisers and to a degree destroyers were buildt for tasks where a battleship would be overkill or where they felt like using ships that were somewhat more expendable. 

[steviln]

As i mentioned above, if nothing is done (and I don't believe it will be) the game will die out over the next 2-3 years.

 

But my impression is rather that the drop in number of players online were actually reversed when they introduced the german BBs! Maybe because most players are interested in surface battles rather than combined weapons battles?

[steviln]

I trink Stevlin is trolling tbh

 

I am not trolling, I am just presenting arguments you are not able to answer I do not have the actual statistics, but to me it seems that there have been steadily increasing number of player online on average after they introduced german BBs. It is also a tech tree people enjoy playing, rather than other new lines like british cruisers and german DDs. It seems the german BBs are the most popular new tech tree to be introduced into the game by far. 

[1MajorKoenig]

 

My point is that aircraft were so effective during WW2, that a game that combine surface combat ships and carriers is not really a good idea. CVs should not have been included in the game in the first place. There should be seperate games on carrier battles and surface engagements. And if you look at the Battle of Jutland, which really is the only battle where the battleships fleets of two nations came out in force, the BBs including BCs actually outnumbered the cruisers! And when you look at the surface actions, battleships seemed to mostly be able to dodge the enemy torpedoes. The torpedoes actually had more success against destroyers and cruisers. 

 

Nope! At Jutland there where roughly 40 British Capital ships versus  20 German + a couple of obsolete pre dreadnoughts. Meaning about 60 capital ships out of about 200. You might be right about cruisers as most of these were destroyers.

 

However Jutland was the only battleships clash with modern battleships.

 

In the WW2 pacific theatre this game is modelled after there were 2 (!). Not more.

 

However these are fruitless discussions. Either you make a game with multiple classes - then you need to make all classes equally viable or you do a game about a single class. In between stuff doesn't work.

[shadowwolf9705]

well thats cause we are in europe a large number of players were waiting for the german BBs the same will happen when we get Royal Navy BBs (cruisers are not so welcomed cause they are not what the people expected and they cant handle their playstyle would they be like the rest of the CAs they also would have been more popular) or italian and French ships they player numbers will rise, best example in the other direction are of course the russian CAs while they are very good the are the least played ships and as far as i know that includes the russian server were they are unpopular too despite beign rather powerfull

[dasCKD]

If newer players are bullied about from carriers, that is excellent! And what is wrong with gameplay that make the players use their fighters for what they were built for rather than scoutplanes?

 

It's wrong for the same reason as issuing seal clubbing ships is wrong. It prevents newer players from getting into the game.

[steviln]

 

It's wrong for the same reason as issuing seal clubbing ships is wrong. It prevents newer players from getting into the game.

 

But there is an exception for CV players, as we already have to many CV players. And since I am norwegian I have no problem clubbing seals. 

[dasCKD]

But there is an exception for CV players, as we already have to many CV players. 

 

No we do not. CVs, an entire game class for WG to model, balance, and market has percentages in the low single digits. This means that CV players are either too stupid to handle themselves and free XPed their way up the tree, or have stuck with the class for so long that they carry their team to victory in basically every single game they step into. The lack of average players, thanks to the stupid battleship buffs, are the primary factor contributing to the carrier performance gap in the present time. There is no exception, especially for a class that wields as large an influence as the carriers.

[shadowwolf9705]

well CV also have the problem that the general gameplay is not for everyone as it is more a low tech RTS and there is no tutorial, i just need to look at the amount autodropers in t8+ cvs (not that auto drop is bad but atleast dont drop from one direction too easy to evade)

[Capra76]

 

The problem for us discussing this, is that we only have anecdotal evidence not hard stats. The devs have a target for the percentage of each class played in relation to each other. If the server stats indicate that these numbers are out of kilter, then they will make the appropriate changes. 

 

We can see the stats on WarshipsToday, I can tell you that 9/10 of the most played ships over the last 2 weeks are BB (AGS sneaks in at 7), there are more KM BB games played per week than all 3 DD lines combined, BB do the most damage, get the most kills and live the longest.

 

You're surely not going to tell me that there's any kind of balance there or that those numbers are in line with any kind of target, and what are WG doing?  More nerfs for DD.

 

 

Obviously, when the DEBBs were introduced, the numbers of BBs shot up and I still think we are seeing the effect of that now.

 

RN CL were introduced more recently, where are they?  Why aren't they having the same effect on the game as KM BB?

 

Why are Nassau/Kaiser/Konig still top of the played list 6 months after they were introduced, surely the new line effect has worn off at least them by now?

 

 

 

[Capra76]

My point is that aircraft were so effective during WW2, that a game that combine surface combat ships and carriers is not really a good idea. CVs should not have been included in the game in the first place.

 

The same argument could be made for any class, CV too effective against BB, remove them: BB too effective against CA, remove them; CA too effective against DD, remove them; welcome to world of DD.

 

Ultimately this is a game and it needs to be balanced, if WG aren't going to do that they might as well remove every other class from the game and make BB handle like DD with rapid firing guns so that they're more fun to play.

 

Historical accuracy is not an argument that carries any weight in a game like this and using it selectively when it suits your agenda mikes it look like you want the game to become World of Bug-stomping for BB.

[El2aZeR]

My point is that aircraft were so effective during WW2, that a game that combine surface combat ships and carriers is not really a good idea. CVs should not have been included in the game in the first place.

 

Unlike in RL, there is only one, at most two CVs per side in a game, which have severe limitations imposed on them to keep them balanced. There's a reason why skilled players tell people complaining about CVs to l2p, even those who have never even touched CVs.

So that's my advice to you. L2p before making any uneducated statements about CVs or the balance of the game.

 

The lack of CVs is sorely felt in the current meta. There are far too many BBs & DDs with no CVs to keep them in check, which subsequently also leads to a decline in the cruiser population. It is the hilarious long string of crippling nerfs to CVs that have destroyed the overall balance between the classes in the first place.

 

And what is wrong with gameplay that make the players use their fighters for what they were built for rather than scoutplanes?

 

Nothing, really. Fighters in themselves, while being rather bland gameplay-wise, are okay, if not necessary. It's the AS setups that are just plain useless and should be removed.

[IanH755]

 

But my impression is rather that the drop in number of players online were actually reversed when they introduced the german BBs! Maybe because most players are interested in surface battles rather than combined weapons battles?

 

Maybe it's because the German BB's are the "easiest" ships to play in the game for a new player, good armour (virtually no citadels to worry about), good speed and great guns which get better the closer you get (and most low tier games end up very close). These new players then try other lines and find that, all the "bad" skills they learnt that weren't punished when playing German BB's (sailing broadside is OK etc), gets them killed very quickly in other ships. Well new players don't like that so they go back to good old German BB's again and the game dies.

 

In 2-3 years when there is ONLY BB's left, how "fun" will the game be then, because that seems to be the game you want - no DD, no CA & no CV - is that right?

[Hanszeehock]

 

RN CL were introduced more recently, where are they?  Why aren't they having the same effect on the game as KM BB?

 

Why are Nassau/Kaiser/Konig still top of the played list 6 months after they were introduced, surely the new line effect has worn off at least them by now?

 

 

 

 

The answer is obvious. The DEBBs are easier to play and BBs are the most popular class. They are much more new player friendly. 

 

On the other side the RNCLs below T6 are awful and it only tends to be experienced players who can grind through them successfully. 

[Venatacia]

To survive, every game needs some form of "balance" and WG originally had this to a certain degree which is why the game proved popular. Each class had positive and negatives which gave people as many different ways of playing the same game as possible, which keeps the game fresh for old players and entices new players. However, by accepting a "BB vs heavily nerfed DD only" meta which it currently is the game will stagnate and lose customers quickly. After all, no BB players want 12v12 BB games every match all the time, but thats the way it's heading!

 

Cruiser players are either swapping classes or leaving, CV players are doing the same and, once the DD nerf hits at 0.6.0, the DD's will start moving too, all of which just leaves 90% of people playing BB's and a dead game.

 

Is that really what the BB players want? All BB's matches with no other ships in the game? If that happens what will they start nerfing next - BB AP damage is too much, needs nerfing? BB Secondaries cause too many fires, please nerf? BB accuracy at 20+km is too bad, please buff?

 

A game of 10+ BB's vs 10+ BB's is a game that will die so something NEEDS to be done to keep the game alive, and that is bring the "balance" back which means BB numbers HAVE to be reduced by either limiting their numbers in MM (bad choice but works instantly) or by making them less fun to play whilst making other classes more fun to play (better choice but takes too long to have an effect). However I don't think WG have the ability to fix this problem. I really don't see this game still being around in 2-3 years time like WoT will be. If you look at WoT it's not 10+ Heavies in every match (which is where WoWS is heading) and that game is massively popular because it still has some balance and I think the WoWS Dev teams need to take a lot of advice from the WoT Dev teams immediately!

 

​The WoW dev team knew what they were doing back in CBT but after a number of updates something changed and it seemed like the dev team had been taken over by the WoT dev team which wasn't good and now in my opinion the game has been heading this way ever since, which is why WoW isn't looking too great these days.

[Exocet6951]

 

As I have mentioned earlier, the battle of Leyte is special and does not prove your case,

 

Except that it's hardly the only example, is it?

 

For every large battle, there are ten small skirmishes fought between DDEs, DDs and CLs.

The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that a large ship with primitive radar, incapable of pinpointing the bearing and speed of a small ship could be forced to retreat in order to prevent taking unnecessary is not only foolish, but wrong from a historical stand point.

 

BBs were an idiotic, doomed class from the opening days of WWII, and only kept because big guns = coastal bombardment (a role that DDs ultimately managed to grab too, with rocket batteries), and because of the massive propaganda ability you get from it.

 

 

 

The fact that you basically want this game to be a 12v12 BB brawl fest is dumb, and you're ruining the game for the rest of us.

[steviln]

For every large battle, there are ten small skirmishes fought between DDEs, DDs and CLs.

The fact that you don't want to acknowledge that a large ship with primitive radar, incapable of pinpointing the bearing and speed of a small ship could be forced to retreat in order to prevent taking unnecessary is not only foolish, but wrong from a historical stand point.

 

Actually, I have never complained about torpedoes. I actually want the japanese torpedoes "denerfed" exactly because the long lance had such a huge impact on several surface engagement. What I do not like is making the battleships artificially weak with having useless secondaries, to much dispersion compared to cruisers and so on. I have no trouble with effective torpedoes both because it does not destroy the enjoyment of playing the game and because it was such an important factor in real battles. 

[steviln]

 

Maybe it's because the German BB's are the "easiest" ships to play in the game for a new player, good armour (virtually no citadels to worry about), good speed and great guns which get better the closer you get (and most low tier games end up very close). These new players then try other lines and find that, all the "bad" skills they learnt that weren't punished when playing German BB's (sailing broadside is OK etc), gets them killed very quickly in other ships. Well new players don't like that so they go back to good old German BB's again and the game dies.

 

In 2-3 years when there is ONLY BB's left, how "fun" will the game be then, because that seems to be the game you want - no DD, no CA & no CV - is that right?

 

I like both CAs and DDs but hate CVs that I think should be removed from the game. I oppose the measures people want to get more cruisers in the game. Quite a few player do play cruisers today and will continue with it in the future. 

[steviln]

 

The lack of CVs is sorely felt in the current meta. There are far too many BBs & DDs with no CVs to keep them in check, which subsequently also leads to a decline in the cruiser population. It is the hilarious long string of crippling nerfs to CVs that have destroyed the overall balance between the classes in the first place.

 

 

That is exactly why I want fewer cruisers in the game. Because their captains want more CVs in the game. I think they should wait until those people leave the game, and then give the cruisers some buffs like repair parties at lower tiers and so on. 

[SovietFury43]

well thats cause we are in europe a large number of players were waiting for the german BBs the same will happen when we get Royal Navy BBs (cruisers are not so welcomed cause they are not what the people expected and they cant handle their playstyle would they be like the rest of the CAs they also would have been more popular) or italian and French ships they player numbers will rise, best example in the other direction are of course the russian CAs while they are very good the are the least played ships and as far as i know that includes the russian server were they are unpopular too despite beign rather powerfull

 

It has been 6 months since the release of German BBs. Far to long for it to be just excitement over a line people wanted to play. Coincidently the German BBs also happen to outperform the US and Japanese ones in 9 out of 10 tiers. 

 

The truth staring us in the face is that the German BBs are played so much because they are easy to play, and they are easy to play because they are OP. The sooner that is admitted the sooner something can be done about it.