The French Cruiser's Thing

[dasCKD]

i would say go for anti-BB, currently only JPN cruisers are effective against BB. ofc the drawback is that the frenchies will have hard competition, takao can ridicule Yamatos, while myoko can brawl with most BB she meets 

 

I don't think most people would mind, they are way too many battleships in the game right now after all.

[mtm78]

i would say go for anti-BB, currently only JPN cruisers are effective against BB. ofc the drawback is that the frenchies will have hard competition, takao can ridicule Yamatos, while myoko can brawl with most BB she meets 

 

High tier VMF cruisers ( Chappy / Donskoi / Moskva ) are excellent barbeque material as well. Even Shchors is a decent BB burner.  

[dasCKD]

High tier VMF cruisers ( Chappy / Donskoi / Moskva ) are excellent barbeque material as well. Even Shchors is a decent BB burner.  

 

My experiences with them on the test server haven't been too positive unfortunately (except for the Moskva where I just fire AP at battleships for easy citadels )  I find that their guns are fall too small to do consistent damage or set consistent fires.

[mtm78]

I only played those during testing ( not pts ) but I seen how a great player can utilize them ( Flamu for instance ). I won't be able to fully duplicate it but I am really looking forward for my Donskoi ( I don't think I will reach CE on my captain though before that so I won't be as effective anyway ). 

[Exocet6951]

 

That would be an unfortunate possibility, yes. The British cruisers might be extremely hard to handle, but at least they are unique and potentially very powerful. I don't know if the French cruisers really could have the same effect or will they be a waste of both out and WG's time.

 

The idea of AP shells with some fire chance intrigued me, so I started digging.

 

After a little hop on navweaps.com and some googling about different types of explosives,( which may or may not have landed me on a government watchlist for suspicious bahavior  ), I did find that as far as 203mm guns go, French AP shells had an 8kg bursting charge (picric acid) compared to the USN's 2.3kg of explosive D bursting charge on their super heavy shell.

 

The French 155mm gun follows the same trend compared to the German 155mm and American 152mm, but I'm relunctant to draw any conclusions as the only AP shell listed for the French 155 is a SAP shell. That really could mean just about anything, especially considering the French's tendency to not follow conventions.

 

 

Now, I know that there are some major difference between the explosive used, but I somehow doubt that explosive D is four times more powerful than picric acid, so we're looking at a much bigger boom upon impact. In fact, almost as much as an HE shell. I having no idea exacty how they managed that, but it's more than reasonable to consider that it happened at the expense of penetration.

 

 

 

That could be the French niche, a lower penetration AP shell but with guaranteed (and low) HE damage and slight fire chance (following normal HE mechanics rule) and a regular HE shell on the side, although interestingly not as powerful as similar sized HE shells in other branches.

Add that to reasonably maneuverable ships, average to above average ballistics, maybe a repair party to help out the very fragile lower tiers, decent AA very reminiscent of USN and RN AA, though without a doubt worse long range performance than the USN 127mm DPAA,and you got yourself a branch of ships that's worth exploring. At the very least concept testing it.

[dasCKD]

That could be the French niche, a lower penetration AP shell but with guaranteed (and low) HE damage and slight fire chance (following normal HE mechanics rule) and a regular HE shell on the side, although interestingly not as powerful as similar sized HE shells in other branches.

 

It would be an interesting thing for cruisers to have, though if normal shell rules follows then the new AP type will struggle against battleship armor. Having a shell type with guaranteed damage is something that probably needs careful testing however to stop it from breaking the game.

Add that to reasonably maneuverable ships, average to above average ballistics, maybe a repair party to help out the very fragile lower tiers, decent AA very reminiscent of USN and RN AA, though without a doubt worse long range performance than the USN 127mm DPAA,and you got yourself a branch of ships that's worth exploring. At the very least concept testing it.

 

Well, having the heals alone on what could be considered an average cruiser branch is probably something a lot of players would think as worth pursuing, especially with WG's push to make it so that there would be fewer premium ships in ranked and competitive battles.

[Exocet6951]

 

It would be an interesting thing for cruisers to have, though if normal shell rules follows then the new AP type will struggle against battleship armor. Having a shell type with guaranteed damage is something that probably needs careful testing however to stop it from breaking the game.

 

Well, having the heals alone on what could be considered an average cruiser branch is probably something a lot of players would think as worth pursuing, especially with WG's push to make it so that there would be fewer premium ships in ranked and competitive battles.

 

It would still be guaranteed HE damage, following the normal HE rules. If you hit the main belt of a BB, you wouldn't do any HE damage.

But indeed, very careful testing would be needed, from a gameplay, design and technical point of view.

 

 

As far as the heals go, I think it will be an absolutely required for low to mid tier French CLs, seeing as like the British, they are extremely poorly armored. So it's either make them bullet sponges or be able to repair some damage, or else they'll be way too glassy to be of use, no matter what additional flavor they have.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

It would still be guaranteed HE damage, following the normal HE rules. If you hit the main belt of a BB, you wouldn't do any HE damage.

But indeed, very careful testing would be needed, from a gameplay, design and technical point of view.

 

 

As far as the heals go, I think it will be an absolutely required for low to mid tier French CLs, seeing as like the British, they are extremely poorly armored. So it's either make them bullet sponges or be able to repair some damage, or else they'll be way too glassy to be of use, no matter what additional flavor they have.

 

The British wouldn't need it if it wasn't for their absolutely appalingly crap armament till you reach T6. We shouldn't make that a habbit for every cruiser now.

[dasCKD]

The British wouldn't need it if it wasn't for their absolutely appalingly crap armament till you reach T6. We shouldn't make that a habbit for every cruiser now.

 

I think that every cruiser from tiers 6-8 should have cruiser level heals extended to them. As they are currently, they are simply too punishing even for seasoned players.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

So I have a preliminary tech tree for French Cruisers that I made up quickly, I also left room for DD's, BB's and their couple of CV's later. 

Main issue is I'm missing designs for tiers 1 and 4, as no French ships were built that fit either of these as far as I can find out, though I'm sure a design for both exists somewhere.

 

 

Edgar Quinet is waaaaaay overpowered at T3, scrap that. Duquesne is fine at T5 maybe.

Emil Bértin is also too weak for T6, put Gallisionere there and get Suffren on T7, as Suffren is too weak for T8 anyway. Same for Algerie, too weak to be a T9, so let it replace Suffren at T8.

T9 will be Saint Louis, T10 the follow up design I can't be bothered to find right now, maybe later if you are really interested.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

I think that every cruiser from tiers 6-8 should have cruiser level heals extended to them. As they are currently, they are simply too punishing even for seasoned players.

 

Be very careful what you wish for. Even without heals, these ships perform just fine. They don't need a heal.

[Exocet6951]

 

The British wouldn't need it if it wasn't for their absolutely appalingly crap armament till you reach T6. We shouldn't make that a habbit for every cruiser now.

 

Yes but imagine that French cruiser armor would be at the very very best average at some tiers, and downright laughable at others.

 

The current contender for tier7 has 60mm of belt armor, and the one for tier3 has 30mm of belt armor.

That's citpen territory for 203mm HE.

 

Something has to be done to accomodate for that, other else the grind to the first cruiser with a 100m belt armor will be painful. Emerald painful.

[dasCKD]

Be very careful what you wish for. Even without heals, these ships perform just fine. They don't need a heal.

 

Cruisers are almost absent from those tiers. Most of the ships that I have seen recently have been Spees, Atagos, and Kuzutovs. Almost anything else I meet are battleships. I think that the fact that cruisers, despite being both the universal class offering the most diverse types of ships and representing the largest numbers of lines, are used far less than battleships represents a fundamental problem with game balance.

[aboomination]

A Myoko with heal would be loltastic! But since cruisers get one-shoted through the bow all the time, this surely wouldn't change a thing 

 

[dasCKD]

A Myoko with heal would be loltastic! But since cruisers get one-shoted through the bow all the time, this surely wouldn't change a thing 

 

Well she is significantly tougher than the average cruiser at that tier. A heal would help her perform far better.

[Kazomir]

 

Be very careful what you wish for. Even without heals, these ships perform just fine. They don't need a heal.

 

*looks at ranked* 

 

Nope, no cruisers there....

 

 

Well there are some but they either roll the Atago which has a heal and bbq guns, or Kutuzov (smoke and bbq) Or chapayev (radar, bbq battleships)

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

Yes but imagine that French cruiser armor would be at the very very best average at some tiers, and downright laughable at others.

 

The current contender for tier7 has 60mm of belt armor, and the one for tier3 has 30mm of belt armor.

That's citpen territory for 203mm HE.

 

Something has to be done to accomodate for that, other else the grind to the first cruiser with a 100m belt armor will be painful. Emerald painful.

 

That depends on your T3 candidate. I'm rather sure we will see something like the St. Louis again (no, not Edgar Quinet, which probably could compete at T4 or even T5).

These ships, with HE and AP, will be fine at T3 to T7. Certainly.

 

 

Cruisers are almost absent from those tiers. Most of the ships that I have seen recently have been Spees, Atagos, and Kuzutovs. Almost anything else I meet are battleships. I think that the fact that cruisers, despite being both the universal class offering the most diverse types of ships and representing the largest numbers of lines, are used far less than battleships represents a fundamental problem with game balance.

 

*Quick look at the stats* 

Right now, out of the 5 ships most played on EU the last two weeks on T6, 4 are cruisers.

Out of the top 10 it's 5. 

T7: 4/10 (Not even a premium here!)

T8: Obvious spot where things are a bit more difficult as there are a LOT of popular BB's at that tier, but still: 4 out of 10.

So, sorry these ships are far from dead.

The MM just doesn't distribute them very well, so a wrong perception emerges.

 

[mtm78]

The MM just doesn't distribute them very well, so a wrong perception emerges.

 

Buff MM! 

[ApesTogetherStronK]

 

Edgar Quinet is waaaaaay overpowered at T3, scrap that. Duquesne is fine at T5 maybe.

Emil Bértin is also too weak for T6, put Gallisionere there and get Suffren on T7, as Suffren is too weak for T8 anyway. Same for Algerie, too weak to be a T9, so let it replace Suffren at T8.

T9 will be Saint Louis, T10 the follow up design I can't be bothered to find right now, maybe later if you are really interested.

 

I read Quinet's main battery caliber as 154mm, not 194 for some rreason. Oops! She could certainly contend at tier 4 though, sort of a super St Louis, also fills that gap nicely. 

Bertin seems fine for tier 6 to me She is essentially a Budyonny with an all overpen armor scheme; but better torps and AA. She also reached 40 knots in trials. 40! I seriously think it would be quite accurate of WG to give French Cruisers speed boost for their flavor right now. Gallisionere's armor is more than enough at tier 7 also. 

 

The main issue of placement revolves around their armor either being too bad or too good for the tier. Algerie has much more armor than a Hipper, and guns that on paper fired faster (and WG uses the paper stats for rpm usually,) while also having better AA, a higher FCS, giving more range, and was widely considered the best CA in Europe. She outperforms her closest contemporary on the tier too much to be considered the same tier. If at tier 9, she would also get access to the tier 9 upgrade slot, making her more than competitive for the tier.

[anonym_XGuN6pHmfiJ9]

 

Be very careful what you wish for. Even without heals, these ships perform just fine. They don't need a heal.

 

OMg...if cruisers could get heals those poor BB's would need 3 salvos to sink a cruiser instead of 2 salvos. What would they do?

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

OMg...if cruisers could get heals those poor BB's would need 3 salvos to sink a cruiser instead of 2 salvos. What would they do?

 

Not the problem and, as usual, a very shortsighted take at balance.

 

 

I read Quinet's main battery caliber as 154mm, not 194 for some rreason. Oops! She could certainly contend at tier 4 though, sort of a super St Louis, also fills that gap nicely. 

Bertin seems fine for tier 6 to me She is essentially a Budyonny with an all overpen armor scheme; but better torps and AA. She also reached 40 knots in trials. 40! I seriously think it would be quite accurate of WG to give French Cruisers speed boost for their flavor right now. Gallisionere's armor is more than enough at tier 7 also. 

 

The main issue of placement revolves around their armor either being too bad or too good for the tier. Algerie has much more armor than a Hipper, and guns that on paper fired faster (and WG uses the paper stats for rpm usually,) while also having better AA, a higher FCS, giving more range, and was widely considered the best CA in Europe. She outperforms her closest contemporary on the tier too much to be considered the same tier. If at tier 9, she would also get access to the tier 9 upgrade slot, making her more than competitive for the tier.

 

Speed trials are irrlevant, as no ship makes those on full load. Most if not all warships of the period exceeded their operational top speed in trials by quite a margin.

The problem you have with Bertin at T6 is the DD's she meets, which would easily be able to penetrate her. At any ranges, sometimes even with HE. It's not competetive.

Gallisionere though is essentially a Cleveland with a turret less and less AA, but torps. At T7, her armament just wouldn't cut it.

 

Basically, you have set wrong preconditions. You are forcing some ships in tiers where they might be able to compete when buffed beyond IRL performance while not thinking about how to maybe better group them without doing that.

Suffren is a prime example, what do you want to give her to compete with the other cruisers at T8? Worst guns, worst armour, not particularly good speed, not a very large displacement (so not a lot of HP). Why force her into T8 to have Gallisionere at T7, while you have a seriously subpar ship at T6 already?

 

Also, while Algerie is decently armoured, it's not far above the competitors. Yes, it has been one of the best treaty cruiser designs, but a treaty cruiser nonetheless. At T9, there are no treaty cruisers anymore. It's guns did not fire faster than other cruisers at T8 (there is a difference between paper values and plannes values during construction: it never reached the 6rpm it was supposed to do during the design stage) with 12 to 15 seconds. Only 8 guns with that kind of RPM at T9? No thanks. Again, you COULD buff her ahistorically to somehow get her to compete, but why should you when there is a better solution available?

Another problem is the penetration: at 820m/s, it has a lower velocity than any other 203mm gun in the game, while firing a shell that is very much comparable in shellweight (about the same as the German 20.3cm/60 SK/C 34 of Hipper, fired at 920m/s; and only slighty above the 8" Mk. 9-14 used on the New Orleans class, firing at 853 m/s). We are looking at a very subpar gun here, which absolutely balances out her advantages in armour.

 

[Affeks]

BB main here, not to whine though. I feel fire is almost too weak tbh, with dmg con that has quite short cooldowns, mods and captain skills to reduce fire time and repairs that heal all damage from fires I think its time for another HE line tbh. USN, RN and KM cruiser lines aren't really a major threat if you're angeled, as a BB main I want more HE threats to create more interesting tactical situations in game.

 

Idea for SAP or HE/AP

Better pen values (maybe something like 1/3 instead of 1/6), able to start fires like normal HE (but maybe lower than normal), but it cant do citadel damage.... This ofcourse would have to be the only ammunition like RN CLs and the perfect anti BB weapons as you wouldn't citadel a BB almost ever anyways.

 

I'm also tempted by the thought of having a type of ammunition that uses the HE pen mechanics, but has no firechance at all. I played the IJN cruiser line, and most of my damage came from HE damage with fire dmg on close second. I think that would be more fun as it just takes away the biggest RNG factor when playing.  

Just some ideas, I really want more HE ships though as I think dealing with fires is too easy if you know what you're doing.

[rudeflounder4]

maybe WG should not add minor nations who did nothing in ww2 like france maybe add some royal navy BB or DD

[Earl_of_Northesk]

maybe WG should not add minor nations who did nothing in ww2 like france maybe add some royal navy BB or DD

 

And we hand the golden Krasny Krim for the whiniest post of January 2017 too.....rudeflounder4! 

Congratulations 

[Exocet6951]

maybe WG should not add minor nations who did nothing in ww2 like france maybe add some royal navy BB or DD

 

Yes, do tell how the HMS Dreadnought and the RN N3 class were instrumental in WWII.

 

Because in a game where ships range from 1902 all the way up to the 1950s, with some of the most widely used ships having been designed in the late 30's,  it's a 6 year period in the 1940s that determines the importance of a nation's naval strength in the 20th century.

 

 

RN fanboys, always present, always the same.