British Battleship line for 2017?

[SeaMonsterUK]

Sorry to burst your bubble Tano (and others) but the 1920s designs are extremely unlikely to fill the T10 slot. The BBs would be painfully slow at that tier, and the return to old designs would be jarring. Every other T10 BB is either a WWII ship, an almost WWII ship or a WWII era project. We'll see a mostly fictional sort-of-based-on-Lion... "thing", to suit whatever flavour WG cook up for the line, I can almost guarantee it.

 

Heard of fictional refits for ships? Same will happen to these 1920's design Battleships and Battlecruisers as they best fit those lines at that high tier.

[VC381]

8:    I've said before and I'll say again, KGV belongs at tier 8:

Yes it only has 14" guns , but they were very good.

 

Separate to the discussion about what tier it should be at, this is incorrect. The guns themselves are... OK. Really nothing special for a 14" gun. The USN 14"/50s with the modern shells that saw service in the refitted New Mexico and Tennessee classes are arguably better guns for the caliber. There is absolutely nothing special about the KGVs 14" guns that would allow them to punch above their size in the way that e.g. Scharnhorst and Dunkerque do.

[SeaMonsterUK]

If you look at how the German BB line went, T8 was their best ship that actually sailed. T9 was a proposal and T10 was total fantasy, feels like it would make sense for RN to follow a similar pattern unless they buffed something up to T9.

 

Unlike Germany, Britain does not need to go down that route.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Separate to the discussion about what tier it should be at, this is incorrect. The guns themselves are... OK. Really nothing special for a 14" gun. The USN 14"/50s with the modern shells that saw service in the refitted New Mexico and Tennessee classes are arguably better guns for the caliber. There is absolutely nothing special about the KGVs 14" guns that would allow them to punch above their size in the way that e.g. Scharnhorst and Dunkerque do.

 

Correct! Have a like. Seriously, the 14" Mk VII is not nearly as good as what people say it is, but in comparison to the British 14" and newer American 14" guns, the US had better overall penetration but British shells were heavier.

[Hans_the_Hawk]

No to the Battlecruisers from me.

 

 

 

Battlecruisers were a flawed concept, and shown to fail horribly when up against proper battleships. The last thing the RN needs is another line of fragile ships.

 

Battlecruisers were not a flawed concept, because in the concept they were not supposed to be used in Line of Battle against BBs.

They proved themselves at the Battle of the Falklands , doing exactly what Fisher had had them designed for.

 

As it was all 3 that blew up were hit by other battlecruisers at Jutland NOT Battleships, also they were not fragile but mismanaged.

If managed properly as in the case of HMS Lion when "Q" turret was hit , the ship survived

[RUSSIANBlAS]

 

Unlike Germany, Britain does not need to go down that route.

 

True, it has a whole plethora of ships for the lower and mid tiers. I still think T9 should be Lion and T10 should be fantasy. Vanguard used 15" guns to get her into service faster and wouldn't cut at T9 as they were essentially WW1 era guns even if improved with better ammo. Maybe if they were ultra accurate with really fast turret rotation, like a Warspite on steroids 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

True, it has a whole plethora of ships for the lower and mid tiers. I still think T9 should be Lion and T10 should be fantasy. Vanguard used 15" guns to get her into service faster and wouldn't cut at T9 as they were essentially WW1 era guns even if improved with better ammo. Maybe if they were ultra accurate with really fast turret rotation, like a Warspite on steroids 

 

Vanguard is tier 8 through and through and likely to be premium, were KGV barely fits tier 7 but miles away from being an effective Tier 8 due to those guns it has.

 

Plus: Lion-class fit's in at Tier 8, 9 and 10 through 4 separate designs, each larger than the last.

[Hans_the_Hawk]

 

• 14" Mk VII isn't capable of working at tier 8
• The only way the KGV will be at tier 8 realistically is with either the 15" or 16" guns it was also planned on being equipped with
• All the ships it faces have more firepower than the KGV with exception to the Bismarck class
• Bismarck and North Carolina classes are for the most part immune to the 14" shells at medium range, and long range for the NC
• The only other battleship at that tier it can do any real damage to is the Amagi, but Battlecruisers usually aren't well armoured
• Other tier 8 candidates, such as Litterio and Richelieu, are both superior to the KGV class

Clear enough for you or do I need to dumb it down to Kindergarten levels for you?

 

WOW , you are getting a little personal are you not?

 

"Clear enough for you or do I need to dumb it down to Kindergarten levels for you?"

 

I'll be more grown up and refrain from insulting you

 

 

Littorio (correct spelling) and Richlieu were not superior to KGV , where do you get this info?

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

Littorio (correct spelling) and Richlieu were not superior to KGV , where do you get this info?

 

Gun performance (penetration, weight of the shell) and armour levels (both deck and belt).

[RUSSIANBlAS]

 

Vanguard is tier 8 through and through and likely to be premium, were KGV barely fits tier 7 but miles away from being an effective Tier 8 due to those guns it has.

 

Plus: Lion-class fit's in at Tier 8, 9 and 10 through 4 separate designs, each larger than the last.

 

A T10 Lion with 4x3 16" maybe very Monty like atleast in it's gun configuration. I'd rather something more fantastical but who knows.

 

Wasn't KGV some sort of Treaty BB and chose 14" for the reduction they wanted everyone else to follow but didn't? Maybe it can work at T8 with tweaked penetration characteristics as the guns did destroy a lot of German steel, although those were fairly unfair fights. 

 

Aslong as they're competitive in game I'll be happy. I'd much rather that than historical accuracy.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

A T10 Lion with 4x3 16" maybe very Monty like atleast in it's gun configuration. I'd rather something more fantastical but who knows.

 

Wasn't KGV some sort of Treaty BB and chose 14" for the reduction they wanted everyone else to follow but didn't? Maybe it can work at T8 with tweaked penetration characteristics as the guns did destroy a lot of German steel, although those were fairly unfair fights. 

 

Aslong as they're competitive in game I'll be happy. I'd much rather that than historical accuracy.

 

You'd have to buff the guns completely to Martian Heat Ray levels, fitting them with 3 triple 15" guns would be more doable, and in any case not everyone will not be fans of either one or both.

 

There is another Lion with 3x3 16" Mark IV's and Mark III turrets, supposedly RoF would have been 3 rounds per minute and the shell's were heavier.

[Hans_the_Hawk]

Gun performance (penetration, weight of the shell) and armour levels (both deck and belt).

 

Richlieu Belt          max 13.6"

KGV      Belt          max 15"

 

Richlieu      Deck      1.6 to 6.7"

KGV           Deck       6"  thoughout

 

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Richlieu Belt          max 13.6"

KGV      Belt          max 15"

 

Richlieu      Deck      1.6 to 6.7"

KGV           Deck       6"  thoughout

 

 

 

KGV was 6" around magazine and 5" around machinery, so recheck your numbers. And max armour belt on KGV was 14.7" not 15".

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I think the main question is how much do you trust Russia not to g!mp the Royal Navy BBs when implemented?

 

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

I think the main question is how much do you trust Russia not to g!mp the Royal Navy BBs when implemented?

 

 

 

Looking at the Light Cruiser debacle, not alot.

[Hans_the_Hawk]

 

KGV was 6" around magazine and 5" around machinery, so recheck your numbers. And max armour belt on KGV was 14.7" not 15".

Well I'm using one of the most highly regarded reference books in existance , and even should that be wrong, 14.7 is still superior to 13.6 is it not (I maintain 15" however)

 

Also Littorio had less belt and less turret and barbette armour than KGV

 

Still no apology from you for insulting me earlier either , even though you've had many chances

[BuccaneerBill]

Warspites 15" guns work fine at tier 8 so I'm sure KGVs 14" will be fine. Raw vertical penetration is just one stat out of many, its not that important. I'd rather have tight dispersion and 2.1 sigma over pure vertical penetration. I think it'll work well and be fun to play. Plus KGVs are a solid design with good secondaries, armour, speed... Plenty to play around with...including radar/smoke!

[SeaMonsterUK]

Well I'm using one of the most highly regarded reference books in existance , and even should that be wrong, 14.7 is still superior to 13.6 is it not (I maintain 15" however)

 

Also Littorio had less belt and less turret and barbette armour than KGV

 

Still no apology from you for insulting me earlier either , even though you've had many chances

 

I have no need nor any desire to apologise.

 

But, let's look at the gun performance shall we? You'll find that despite the less armour, the French and Italian Battleships are superior at medium range to long ranges:

 

KGV:

0 yards (0 m)	26.9" (668 mm)	---
10,000 yards (9,144 m)	15.6" (396 mm)	1.15" (29 mm)
15,000 yards (13,716 m)	13.2" (335 mm)	1.95" (50 mm)
20,000 yards (18,288 m)	11.2" (285 mm)	2.85" (73 mm)
25,000 yards (22,860 m)	9.5" (241 mm)	4.00" (102 mm)
28,000 yards (25,603 m)	---	4.75" (121 mm)

 

Littorio:

0 yards (0 m)	32.07" (814 mm)	---
19,685 yards (18,000 m)	20.06" (510 mm)	2.86" (73 mm)
30,621 yards (28,000 m)	14.93" (380 mm)	5.11" (130 mm)

 

and

20,780 yards (19,000 m)	16.4" (416 mm)	2.6" (67 mm)
21,870 yards (20,000 m)	15.8" (402 mm)	2.9" (74 mm)
26,250 yards (24,000 m)	13.7" (348 mm)	4.1" (105 mm)
28,430 yards (26,000 m)	12.8" (325 mm)	4.9" (124 mm)

 

Richelieu:

0 yards (0 m)	29.43" (748 mm)	---	---
24,060 yards (22,000 m)	15.49" (393 mm)	4.15" (105 mm)	19.3
29,528 yards (27,000 m)	13.12" (331 mm)	5.44" (138 mm)	26.8
38,280 yards (35,000 m)	11.02" (280 mm)	8.31" (211 mm)	40.4
41,560 yards (38,000 m)	9.8" (249 mm)	10.62" (270 mm)	43.8

 

 

Weight of the shell/salvo:

KGV: 1590lbs/15900lbs

Littorio: 1951lbs/17559lbs

Richelieu: 1949lbs/15592lbs

[SeaMonsterUK]

Warspites 15" guns work fine at tier 8 so I'm sure KGVs 14" will be fine. Raw vertical penetration is just one stat out of many, its not that important. I'd rather have tight dispersion and 2.1 sigma over pure vertical penetration. I think it'll work well and be fun to play. Plus KGVs are a solid design with good secondaries, armour, speed... Plenty to play around with...including radar/smoke!

 

Warspites 15" guns have better penetration.

[BuccaneerBill]

[sharpie65]

Warspites 15" guns work fine at tier 8 so I'm sure KGVs 14" will be fine. Raw vertical penetration is just one stat out of many, its not that important. I'd rather have tight dispersion and 2.1 sigma over pure vertical penetration. I think it'll work well and be fun to play. Plus KGVs are a solid design with good secondaries, armour, speed... Plenty to play around with...including radar/smoke!

 

It's useless trying to argue with Tano about this topic, there's been many a headbutting between us both regarding KGV's gun calibre and the appropriate tier. Even agreeing to disagree results in a "last word" post from one of us.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

It's useless trying to argue with Tano about this topic, there's been many a headbutting between us both regarding KGV's gun calibre and the appropriate tier. Even agreeing to disagree results in a "last word" post from one of us.

 

Essentially it's best avoiding the topic as no one can agree despite the facts being clear.

[sharpie65]

 

Essentially it's best avoiding the topic as no one can agree despite the facts being clear.

 

For once we agree on something.

[Hans_the_Hawk]

Not only have I proved you wrong on many points, but you have shown yourself to be rude and arrogant. Calling me Dumb and stating I belong in Kindergarden. You make the point extremely well as to which of us belongs there with further comments such as:

 

"I have no need nor any desire to apologise."

 

I really feel that getting all your facts and figures from Wikipedia does you no credit and I suggest you go and do some real research rather than sprouting opinions based on quick and easy WEB findings.

 

I have not questioned your figures on Gun penetration at any point , but just proved all your facts about armour are incorrect.

[BuccaneerBill]

 

I have no need nor any desire to apologise.

 

But, let's look at the gun performance shall we? You'll find that despite the less armour, the French and Italian Battleships are superior at medium range to long ranges:

 

KGV:

0 yards (0 m)	26.9" (668 mm)	---
10,000 yards (9,144 m)	15.6" (396 mm)	1.15" (29 mm)
15,000 yards (13,716 m)	13.2" (335 mm)	1.95" (50 mm)
20,000 yards (18,288 m)	11.2" (285 mm)	2.85" (73 mm)
25,000 yards (22,860 m)	9.5" (241 mm)	4.00" (102 mm)
28,000 yards (25,603 m)	---	4.75" (121 mm)

 

Littorio:

0 yards (0 m)	32.07" (814 mm)	---
19,685 yards (18,000 m)	20.06" (510 mm)	2.86" (73 mm)
30,621 yards (28,000 m)	14.93" (380 mm)	5.11" (130 mm)

 

and

20,780 yards (19,000 m)	16.4" (416 mm)	2.6" (67 mm)
21,870 yards (20,000 m)	15.8" (402 mm)	2.9" (74 mm)
26,250 yards (24,000 m)	13.7" (348 mm)	4.1" (105 mm)
28,430 yards (26,000 m)	12.8" (325 mm)	4.9" (124 mm)

 

Richelieu:

0 yards (0 m)	29.43" (748 mm)	---	---
24,060 yards (22,000 m)	15.49" (393 mm)	4.15" (105 mm)	19.3
29,528 yards (27,000 m)	13.12" (331 mm)	5.44" (138 mm)	26.8
38,280 yards (35,000 m)	11.02" (280 mm)	8.31" (211 mm)	40.4
41,560 yards (38,000 m)	9.8" (249 mm)	10.62" (270 mm)	43.8

 

 

Weight of the shell/salvo:

KGV: 1590lbs/15900lbs

Littorio: 1951lbs/17559lbs

Richelieu: 1949lbs/15592lbs

 

Once again pure vertical penetration is not everything. Littorios guns rapidly died (life of 80-100 rounds?) and were very inaccurate. Richelieu was also inaccurate iirc.  I wonder how that'll work out in game...

KGVs guns were accurate and could fire hundreds before needed to be replaced. Therefore high sigma and accuracy should be expected.