British Battleship line for 2017?

[1MajorKoenig]

 

I never said at any point that this was a realistic simulation.

 

What we are trying to tell you is that tweaking stats here and there doesn't matter as the game is super unrealistic anyway. And if only some stupid and artificial game mechanics are blocking the use of KGV's guns there is no harm in removing these blocks as long as the overall depiction of the ship is sound. And that is what can create immersion.

[lup3s]

 

Only one has radar, their AA is average per tier, their guns are mixed per tier 15>16>14>16>18 and the t10 has only 8 of those 18's. The heal might be good but it depends on circumstance. Insane mobility? It takes more then a decent rudder shift to make a ship insane, the turning circles and speed are purely average.

 

There is still a lot of testing to do so it's a bit early to be calling a line that hasn't even made it to contributor testing 'OP'.

 

But why would a Battleship need radar?

It's already stupid we have one BB with radar.. Not more BBs should get it.

 

This will just make Cruisers obsolete.

 

> BBs with Hydro? check

> BB(s) with Radar? check

> BBs with insane AAA? check

 

Not to forget some BBs can be stealthier than some CAs...

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

What we are trying to tell you is that tweaking stats here and there doesn't matter as the game is super unrealistic anyway. And if only some stupid and artificial game mechanics are blocking the use of KGV's guns there is no harm in removing these blocks as long as the overall depiction of the ship is sound. And that is what can create immersion.

 

The game still has realism, realism is still required to be able to create an immersive environment, this being an arcade game means some of the realism, such as speed, range of guns etc. are upscaled or downscaled but ship designs remain 100% realistic, that should also remain to the King George V, having 15" guns dressed as 14" guns breaks that realism, which breaks the immersion. Keeping that immersion doesn't mean keeping to 100% historical accuracy.

[VC381]

 

I never said at any point that this was a realistic simulation.

 

You did not indeed, but you're saying it needs to be realistic in a very specific way. I don't see how you can logically hold that position when any realism gained from what you're so keen on proposing is a) at the expense of realism elsewhere (not your personal definition of it) and b) completely wasted in the context of other unrealistic elements.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

You did not indeed, but you're saying it needs to be realistic in a very specific way. I don't see how you can logically hold that position when any realism gained from what you're so keen on proposing is a) at the expense of realism elsewhere (not your personal definition of it) and b) completely wasted in the context of other unrealistic elements.

 

a. Adding 15"/45 Mk II guns in 3x3 turrets isn't removing realism from the ship, yes it won't historically accurate, but the ship will remain realistic, and more so than adding 15" guns dressed as 14" guns.

b. Not completely wasted at all, it still remains more realistic in terms of dressing something up as one thing when it is something entirely different.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

The game still has realism, realism is still required to be able to create an immersive environment, this being an arcade game means some of the realism, such as speed, range of guns etc. are upscaled or downscaled but ship designs remain 100% realistic, that should also remain to the King George V, having 15" guns dressed as 14" guns breaks that realism, which breaks the immersion. Keeping that immersion doesn't mean keeping to 100% historical accuracy.

 

Wow I have the feeling you don't want to understand what we try to explain here.

 

Have fun with your 38cm fantasy fleet and say hello to the rest of the "historical" ships such as Myogi, all German Lowtier BBs, Zao, Roon, the entire Russian tree and so on (the list is endless) along with the historical accurate game mechanics including your reverse paddlers, 70kn fast Bottlesheep and so on. Sarcasm aside the only "historical" element is the relatively accurate 3D models of the ships. Which is also only partially true as WG loves to pull fantasy stuff out of their rear like the absolutely stupid thingies they call Kaiser, König, etc. for some reason.

 

Cheers 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Wow I have the feeling you don't want to understand what we try to explain here.

 

Have fun with your 38cm fantasy fleet and say hello to the rest of the "historical" ships such as Myogi, all German Lowtier BBs, Zao, Roon, the entire Russian tree and so on (the list is endless) along with the historical accurate game mechanics including your reverse paddlers, 70kn fast Bottlesheep and so on. Sarcasm aside the only "historical" element is the relatively accurate 3D models of the ships. Which is also only partially true as WG loves to pull fantasy stuff out of their rear like the absolutely stupid thingies they call Kaiser, König, etc. for some reason.

 

Cheers 

 

Obviously you are confusing what is historical accuracy and what is realism.

• Historical accuracy is reproducing the ships as accurately as possible
• Realism is producing realistic physics or dimensions within the game, in world of warships some realistic parts of the game have either been upscaled, such as the speed of the ships in order to keep the game fun, or downscaled like range to keep things realistically within the boundaries of the map.

Sometimes you have to sacrifice historical accuracy in order to maintain a certain level of realism.

[VC381]

Dictionary definition of realism:

 

"The quality or fact of representing a person or thing in a way that is accurate and true to life."

 

So historical accuracy is an intrinsic component of realism, the split is in your mind only. The immersion comes from ships looking and feeling like they did in real life. You simply cannot split appearance and performance and call them different things to suit your agenda. Realism is the whole package and "historical accuracy" is a synonym. What you define separately as "realism" is just historical accuracy of gun behaviour.

 

Furthermore, the game is a mathematical model, the realism we should be looking for is in the final result. Can KGV in game effectively fight what it was designed to, and on occasion did, in real life? Realism is a "yes" to that question regardless of what unrealistic coding hoops you have to jump through to get there.

[SeaMonsterUK]

Dictionary definition of realism:

 

"The quality or fact of representing a person or thing in a way that is accurate and true to life."

 

So historical accuracy is an intrinsic component of realism, the split is in your mind only. The immersion comes from ships looking and feeling like they did in real life. You simply cannot split appearance and performance and call them different things to suit your agenda. Realism is the whole package and "historical accuracy" is a synonym. What you define separately as "realism" is just historical accuracy of gun behaviour.

 

Furthermore, the game is a mathematical model, the realism we should be looking for is in the final result. Can KGV in game effectively fight what it was designed to, and on occasion did, in real life? Realism is a "yes" to that question regardless of what unrealistic coding hoops you have to jump through to get there.

 

Depends which definition you used, going by number 2, yes but this is not something that comes into the physics of the game, such as speed or whether a gun will fit into a specific turret, going by number 1: Having or showing a sensible and practical idea of what can be achieved or expected. - This can be used in terms of developing a Battleship in game with a different set of guns than the ones they used, such as the 15" guns.

[VC381]

There is no physics inside the game, it's all an abstraction. The 15" label is just that, they could call it a 333km Mk.XYZ, it's just a number to trick the game into making the shell behave as it should. Your realism argument is based on the assumption that both 14" and 15" shells as defined in game are inherently realistic and that calling one the other breaks the laws of physics. That's not the case. It just so happens that the game armour and damage model is so simplistic and unrealistic that the easiest way to make a 14" shell behave realistically is to call it 15" behind the scenes for the purpose of some of the calculations. Note "some", namely overmatch, I expect the actual broadside armour penetration to be correct to the 14"/45 spec. If that's the case, what's the problem?

[SeaMonsterUK]

VC381, on 15 June 2017 - 01:46 PM, said:

There is no physics inside the game, it's all an abstraction. The 15" label is just that, they could call it a 333km Mk.XYZ, it's just a number to trick the game into making the shell behave as it should. Your realism argument is based on the assumption that both 14" and 15" shells as defined in game are inherently realistic and that calling one the other breaks the laws of physics. That's not the case. It just so happens that the game armour and damage model is so simplistic and unrealistic that the easiest way to make a 14" shell behave realistically is to call it 15" behind the scenes for the purpose of some of the calculations. Note "some", namely overmatch, I expect the actual broadside armour penetration to be correct to the 14"/45 spec. If that's the case, what's the problem?

 

All games I know, from World of Tanks, World of Warships, War Thunder, Armoured Warfare, all have physics, also known as Game Physics, in game Physics does not have to fully representative of real world Physics, but there are still physics involved.

 

And my realism argument is based on, well, realism, you still need a certain amount of realism, there is a reason Wargaming.net hasn't included monstrosities like H-44, The tier X is a realistic representation of what Wargaming believe a German Battleship of that type would look using real life ships as an example to model such ships. It's one of the things WG need to take into account, when modeling ships accurately whether it be Fictional, Blueprint or Historical  this also includes the armament of a ship, is how they work,

 

And by the way, it literally is a 15" gun dressed as a 14" gun, this is based on the weight of the shell, muzzle velocity of shell and shell damage, it is an unrealistic representation. The problem, is, that the ship, doesn't matter how much sugar you coat it with, doesn't matter whether you want to deny the fact that there are physics or realism in the game, it is still not, and will always not be, a realistic representation. Giving 3x3 15" guns would be a realistic representation, may not be Historically Accurate but it would still be a Realistic representation. Realism is still important in any game.

Also if you don't think there are any physics in game, then you haven't been on or driven a boat, best I've done is a speed boat and that was in my last few days of school and I can pretty much tell you that the physics in game have been done well, you might also want to try observing ship movements in real life or better yet join the Navy.
 

[VC381]

It's only a 15" gun according to what that means in game. Realism is about how it compares to real life. What we want is for the 14" gun in game to behave as the 14" gun did historically. If the game code doesn't make that happen naturally and you need to model it as 15" gun get a realistic end result, so be it.

[SeaMonsterUK]

It's only a 15" gun according to what that means in game. Realism is about how it compares to real life. What we want is for the 14" gun in game to behave as the 14" gun did historically. If the game code doesn't make that happen naturally and you need to model it as 15" gun get a realistic end result, so be it.

 

And we won't get those 14" guns unless KGV is tier 7, unfortunately people would complain about that so best can be done is HMS Prince of Wales. As for realism, yes it is how it compares to real life, that is why it is called realism, but it is also about how it is represented as well. 3x3 15" or even 16" guns shouldn't even be something that we need a damned argument about, should be pretty obvious the 14" guns won't work at that high tier and obviously WG agrees with their 15" in 14" costumes.

[VC381]

Literally the only reason the 14" guns "won't work" at high tier is due to forced game mechanics. There is no realism based argument for why KGV should be incapable of facing the opponents it would face as a T8 ship. So, in order for the ship to be realistic i.e. perform as well as it would in real life and not be gimped due to arbitrary and unrealistic game mechanics, WG need to trick their own game and dress up the guns. It's not elegant but it's the correct solution.

[SeaMonsterUK]

Literally the only reason the 14" guns "won't work" at high tier is due to forced game mechanics. There is no realism based argument for why KGV should be incapable of facing the opponents it would face as a T8 ship. So, in order for the ship to be realistic i.e. perform as well as it would in real life and not be gimped due to arbitrary and unrealistic game mechanics, WG need to trick their own game and dress up the guns. It's not elegant but it's the correct solution.

 

Incorrect solution, even if they used real world physics and Ballistics the 14" guns would be inadequate at that tier, same would be for North Carolina if she had been built with her original 14" Mk 7 in Quad Turrets. The only thing that really stops KGV from being a proper tier 7 is the AA capacity, same would be for NC as well, so the proper solution is to use a more realistic gun set up, that being 3x3 15" guns for KGV, maybe unpopular but it is the only realistic way of keeping the ship remotely accurate since it won't be by historical standards.

[1MajorKoenig]

While I am complaining about WG sometimes I am glad Chipmunk is not their game designer ;-)

 

Boy this discussion is hilarious and he doesn't get it.

 

Maybe some different topic? Is there any indication how Orion and Iron Duke will be modelled? I mean historically accurate or some Star Trek again?

[SeaMonsterUK]

I do not have a special view, unless of course you mean that I actually want the game to be balanced and have a more realistic outlook on ships rather than giving a ship 15" guns in quad turrets which are too big for it to begin with because of recoil then dressing them as 14" guns, that is neither realistic or historically accurate.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

I do not have a special view, unless of course you mean that I actually want the game to be balanced and have a more realistic outlook on ships rather than giving a ship 15" guns in quad turrets which are too big for it to begin with because of recoil then dressing them as 14" guns, that is neither realistic or historically accurate.

 

This might be a harsh surprise... But there aren't any guns in the game.... Just properties assigned to labels like 38cm gun, 22cm gun and what not. And these properties are used in pretty simple calculations to resolve combat between players. And guess what - the properties are chosen by WG employees to make the players feel like they are on ship with guns. 

 

And sorry: being on a speed boat is not being on a ship or boat by any means. If you have the chance try the helm on a big ship - you'll see what I mean :-)

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

This might be a harsh surprise... But there aren't any guns in the game.... Just properties assigned to labels like 38cm gun, 22cm gun and what not. And these properties are used in pretty simple calculations to resolve combat between players. And guess what - the properties are chosen by WG employees to make the players feel like they are on ship with guns. 

 

And sorry: being on a speed boat is not being on a ship or boat by any means. If you have the chance try the helm on a big ship - you'll see what I mean :-)

 

The Harsh surprise here is how stupid your statement sounds. A gun is still a gun, doesn't matter if is real or inside a virtual game, it is still categorically a gun. They may have properties attached to them yes, but they are at the end of the day, still guns.

 

And yes, using a speed boat is still being on a boat, seriously a speed boat is still a boat though I'm sure you can find some flawed explanation and say otherwise, but it gives the basic idea of the physics involved with being on a craft that travels across water, one of these is water resistance.

[G01ngToxicCommand0]

Also if you don't think there are any physics in game, then you haven't been on or driven a boat, best I've done is a speed boat and that was in my last few days of school and I can pretty much tell you that the physics in game have been done well, you might also want to try observing ship movements in real life or better yet join the Navy.

 

WoWS is nothing more than World of tanks on blue grass and ship skins.

The ships don't roll, yaw or pitch in the sea and the only sea state is dead calm thus there is nothing that affects the naval artillery,  torpedos or aircrafts which, unlike real life, can always be brought to bear on the target. World of warships is very far from real life naval conditions and the physics are very rudimentary compared to games like the SIlent Hunter series.

Still a fun game though.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

WoWS is nothing more than World of tanks on blue grass and ship skins.

The ships don't roll, yaw or pitch in the sea and the only sea state is dead calm thus there is nothing that affects the naval artillery,  torpedos or aircrafts which, unlike real life, can always be brought to bear on the target. World of warships is very far from real life naval conditions and the physics are very rudimentary compared to games like the SIlent Hunter series.

Still a fun game though.

 

True, basic physics is enough though in terms of Arcade games, though I can see Wargamings reasons not to include rough seas though it would be nice if they did.

[VC381]

Maybe some different topic? Is there any indication how Orion and Iron Duke will be modelled? I mean historically accurate or some Star Trek again?

 

Refit for sure on Iron Duke at least, but if they copy-paste Warspite it will at least be believable. My objection to the German BB refits was not that they shouldn't have been done, but that they are badly executed and make no sense. If WG follow standard RN pattern for refits based on the ships that did get them, I will say that's acceptable.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Refit for sure on Iron Duke at least, but if they copy-paste Warspite it will at least be believable. My objection to the German BB refits was not that they shouldn't have been done, but that they are badly executed and make no sense. If WG follow standard RN pattern for refits based on the ships that did get them, I will say that's acceptable.

Iron Duke with 2-Pdr Pom Poms would be fun.

[VC381]

Here we go. Plausible and I dare say quite attractive:

 

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

Here we go. Plausible and I dare say quite attractive:

 

 

​Thats not what I would call unatractive, is it. Plus, considering how the Warspite was re-fitted, not exactly unrealistic in interpratation either.