British Battleship line for 2017?

[Earl_of_Northesk]

It's seems you believe that I'm getting involved one this subject again. I'm not. 

it's all been covered before and we will soon see what the outcome is when the ships turn up. It does seem however that you feel the need to have an answer for everything. Can you not just except that others have different views and simply wait to see what WG does? 

 

He has answer, they are just either misleading or wrong.

 

I never I didn't like being made fun of, just that your sarcasm is just bad. And it's 349.25mm not 350mm. And I'm not using anything to further my agenda in anyway, but don't blame me when the KGV is the worst ship of Tier 8 (which it undoubtedly will if they put it there, that I'm over 100% certain of).

 

Over 100? Why not over 9000!!

[SeaMonsterUK]

It's seems you believe that I'm getting involved one this subject again. I'm not. 

it's all been covered before and we will soon see what the outcome is when the ships turn up. It does seem however that you feel the need to have an answer for everything. Can you not just except that others have different views and simply wait to see what WG does? 

 

Don't worry, I wasn't going on any assumption as to whether what side you were on. But as you say we will see where WG will put it, but I can't wait to see that I am right where ever it is placed in the tree. 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

He has answer, they are just either misleading or wrong.

 

Over 100? Why not over 9000!!

I think over 100% will do fine. 

[mr3awsome]

As has been mentioned previous, WG use 40lb = 1" not 40.8lb, so the armour sections will be round values. 

e.g. the weakest section of KGVs belt will be 14", etc. 

 

Repulse has a pretty mediocre AA battery. She never even got 4" twins, so she's left with 6 x 1 QF 4"/45 Mk V. 

Which won't do a lot (namely 16.8dps @ 3.5km). 

Combined with the generally mediocre secondaries, larger size and few main battery guns, she's a fair candidate for tier V, given the appropriate stats. 

 

F3 was the battlecruiser alternative to Nelson, to a predecessor. 

 

What we really need to talk about though is possible premium British Battleships that can appear in game.

I've got a piece on a tier VII slow battleship due later this month.

Plenty of paper options available. 

[Earl_of_Northesk]

As has been mentioned previous, WG use 40lb = 1" not 40.8lb, so the armour sections will be round values. 

e.g. the weakest section of KGVs belt will be 14", etc. 

 

Repulse has a pretty mediocre AA battery. She never even got 4" twins, so she's left with 6 x 1 QF 4"/45 Mk V. 

Which won't do a lot (namely 16.8dps @ 3.5km). 

Combined with the generally mediocre secondaries, larger size and few main battery guns, she's a fair candidate for tier V, given the appropriate stats. 

 

F3 was the battlecruiser alternative to Nelson, to a predecessor. 

 

I've got a piece on a tier VII slow battleship due later this month.

Plenty of paper options available. 

 

Well the talk was about the Renown class, since a certain someone never said he wanted the ship as a premium. Repulse, of course, had no AA to speak off, but that wasn't the point.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Well the talk was about the Renown class, since a certain someone never said he wanted the ship as a premium. Repulse, of course, had no AA to speak off, but that wasn't the point.

 

It was Repulse I wanted as a premium if you go back several pages, and before she was sunk, she did have 2 Octuple 2-Pounder Pom Poms fitted

[SeaMonsterUK]

As has been mentioned previous, WG use 40lb = 1" not 40.8lb, so the armour sections will be round values. 

e.g. the weakest section of KGVs belt will be 14", etc. 

Well it was something like that, even then it's the same amount of armour both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau have.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

Well it was something like that, even then it's the same amount of armour both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau have.

 

Which are the by far best armoured ships at their tier, KGV still has a thicker belt, and Gneisenau and Scharnhorst are only at T7 because they have either less or smaller guns.

You're glorious.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Which are the by far best armoured ships at their tier, KGV still has a thicker belt, and Gneisenau and Scharnhorst are only at T7 because they have either less or smaller guns.

You're glorious.

 

And KGV had 14" guns, were Gneisenau has 15" guns + Torpedoes. I'll bet you flat out, £100 when the tree is released that the KGV won't be competitive with other Tier 8's due to those 14" guns.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

And KGV had 14" guns, were Gneisenau has 15" guns + Torpedoes. I'll bet you flat out, £100 when the tree is released that the KGV won't be competitive with other Tier 8's due to those 14" guns.

 

That's a bet I'm very interested in. But we both know you will never stand to your word.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

That's a bet I'm very interested in. But we both know you will never stand to your word.

 

My word is my honour.

[Exocet6951]

 

That's a bet I'm very interested in. But we both know you will never stand to your word.

 

[looks at the Minotaur and Neptune, then at Hood's teaser which hints at special AP]

 

So, how do you think you'll spend your new found fortune?

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

[looks at the Minotaur and Neptune, then at Hood's teaser which hints at special AP]

 

So, how do you think you'll spend your new found fortune?

 

Considering I have a habit of being right about this kind of thing, I was right about HMS Hood being a premium for one, then I think you'll find he won't be getting a fortune, that I am confident about.

[Exocet6951]

 

Considering I have a habit of being right about this kind of thing, I was right about HMS Hood being a premium for one, then I think you'll find he won't be getting a fortune, that I am confident about.

 

 

 I have a habit of being right about this kind of thing

 

 

*clears throat*

 

Best use of British Cruisers: Target Practice, because those Mortars..... I mean guns, are useless and the AP is dreadfully inadequate, damage is inconsistent. Flatter trajectory would be understandable for an only AP armament.

[...]

No HE would be fine, but AP needs better pen, more damage and flatter trajectory to make them competitive. 

[...]

Game balance for the overly exaggerated arc from these British mortars guns? I don't see how we can call that balance. As a Brit I can definitely say Wargaming hasn't done the Royal Navy cruisers any justice at all.

 

I beg to differ.

Turns out you were wrong.

 

 

So yeah, still wondering what goodies our dear Earl will buy.

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

 

 

*clears throat*
 

I beg to differ.

Turns out you were wrong.


So yeah, still wondering what goodies our dear Earl will buy.
 

 

AP on British Light Cruisers were inadequate then and still are, a lot of the damage I've managed to do on ships like Battleships is with HE, not AP rounds which is only useful really when engaging other cruisers of similar tier or lower. And I'm still confident Earl won't be buying anything.

[EUmofton]

Just so I'm clear on KGV armor comparison - 

 

349.25 or 350mm at it's thinnest depending on level of pedantry?

381mm at it's thickest - if WG model it as a variable thickness.

 

Comparatively at it's thinnest then that's identical to Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. At it's thickest it's 8.9% thicker.

Comparatively at its thinnest it's 2% thicker than Colorado's whole belt. At it's thickest it's 11.1% thicker. 

 

 

2-10% more belt thickness compared to the other T7 battleships doesn't seem a huge boon, certainly nothing to offset the guns as they are currently. 2% belt thickness may not even be noticeable - there are plenty of times where <350mm will bounce shells, or where a shell will equally penetrate 381 or 343 mm of belt. Battleships don't just take belt damage, but fore/aft end penetrations, superstructure penetrations, above-belt penetrations, fires, dive bombers, torpedoes and flooding. 

 

A narrow advantage in belt armor doesn't seem like a great leap in survivability overall. How often will a 16in shell go through 355mm or 344mm but not 381mm? Probably not very often. At 14,000m North Carolina's 16in gun is going through >500mm of armor on paper (minus angling etc.) so result both KGV and Scharn get penned, but turtleback saves the citadel?

[mr3awsome]

349.25 or 350mm at it's thinnest depending on level of pedantry?

356mm. 350mm is the Terrible Twins. 

[SeaMonsterUK]

356mm. 350mm is the Terrible Twins. 

 

It's 13.75" on the KGV at the thinnest part of it's belt.

[Trainspite]

 

Our Earl... Yes it is another option compared to the widely accepted QE+R on T6. Difference between the classes is that Rs are smaller cheaper and slower. And almost entirely unrebuilt in WW2. So the Rs are more like a worse stock Bayern than a Warspite in some ways. And yes, like a Mutsu downtiered is one option and not "doesn't make ANY (caps) sense".

 

The other option is a highly idiotic fantasy refit to slap her on T6. 

 

Or ignore these slow hulks altogether and bring Ramilles as premium for some extra $$$

 

Note to self. Dig up a topic from a few pages ago.

Revenge doesn't need a fictional refit for tier 6.

 

Revenge is the only ship that can have a historical claim to use the 15" supercharge, which increases  her firepower over QE significantly for the purposes of the game. Less AA & secondaries while being slower, but better firepower while being tougher and more compact. 

 

A WW1 condition stock R might make it at tier 5, with nerfed soft stats, but the view on those type of ships are extremely unfavourable. 

 

I'm pretty sure KGV will be confirmed as the tier 8, given there are too many factors that stack up against it being at tier 7, outside of her being a fit for tier 8. At this point I am more interested how similar the line will be to what the tech tree proposal. (Dreadnought or Billy Ruffian, Colossus or Orion, names for the tier 9 and 10 Lions). 

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

I'm pretty sure KGV will be confirmed as the tier 8, given there are too many factors that stack up against it being at tier 7, outside of her being a fit for tier 8. At this point I am more interested how similar the line will be to what the tech tree proposal. (Dreadnought or Billy Ruffian, Colossus or Orion, names for the tier 9 and 10 Lions). 

 

If KGV ever get's tier 8, it will need 15" guns to even be remotely competitive as the 14" guns simply isn't going to be able to compete against ships at that tier, so it should be in my opinion tier 7 if it receives the 14" guns.

 

As for names for the the tier 9 and 10 lions, the Lion-class had 4 names lined up, Lion (more than likely the tier 4 British Battlecruiser), Temeraire, Thunderer and Conqueror, there is also a fictional name I'd love to give it, Thunderchild, but that depends if WG actually gives a damn about the British Tech tree.

[Trainspite]

If KGV ever get's tier 8, it will need 15" guns to even be remotely competitive as the 14" guns otherwise it simply isn't going to be able to compete against ships at that tier, so it should be in my opinion tier 7 if it receives the 14" guns.

 

As for names for the the tier 9 and 10 lions, the Lion-class had 4 names lined up, Lion (more than likely the tier 4 British Battlecruiser), Temeraire, Thunderer and Conqueror, there is also a fictional name I'd love to give it, Thunderchild, but that depends if WG actually gives a damn about the British Tech tree.

 

Bait taken, hook, line and sinker. 

I even cut back what I was going to say, and moved onto other topics. You don't need to repeat yourself on KGV, I am tired of it. You know my opinions on the matter anyway.

 

I personally think Temeraire & Thunderer will be used for Lion 1942/4 at tier 9 and Lion 1945 at tier 10 respectively. But WG may differ, given they have Emden, Scharn/Gneis, Roon/Yorck blocking out other classes, so they could do the same for Lion (Even if I doubt it, WG can be unpredictable). 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Bait taken, hook, line and sinker. 

I even cut back what I was going to say, and moved onto other topics. You don't need to repeat yourself on KGV, I am tired of it. You know my opinions on the matter anyway.

 

I personally think Temeraire & Thunderer will be used for Lion 1942/4 at tier 9 and Lion 1945 at tier 10 respectively. But WG may differ, given they have Emden, Scharn/Gneis, Roon/Yorck blocking out other classes, so they could do the same for Lion (Even if I doubt it, WG can be unpredictable). 

 

Yeah, because you like many others overestimate the capabilities of the KGV class. With it's primary armament of 14" guns, it simply isn't Tier 8 material.

 

Conqueror would be a better suited name for the Lion 1945 considering it's secondary armament of 12 twin 114mm RP 41 Mk VII guns.

[Trainspite]

 

Yeah, because you like many others overestimate the capabilities of the KGV class. With it's primary armament of 14" guns, it simply isn't Tier 8 material.

 

Conqueror would be a better suited name for the Lion 1945 considering it's secondary armament of 12 twin 114mm RP 41 Mk VII guns.

 

And you like a few others, underestimate the capabilities of the KGV class, and how they fit into the game as whole. Lack of the bigger picture. It's easily tier 8 material if you look it at it differently, but you are stuck in a mindset and won't let go (something I am guilty of at times). But at least I consider the possibility of it being tier 7, or a nerfed PoW premium that could complement Rodney. You never considered it at any other tier, lacking flexibility in thinking. 

 

Name is WGs preference. Personally I prefer Thunderer as you will not find that name elsewhere in this game, and others (WoT, looking at you).

[Exocet6951]

 

 

AP on British Light Cruisers were inadequate then and still are, a lot of the damage I've managed to do on ships like Battleships is with HE, not AP rounds which is only useful really when engaging other cruisers of similar tier or lower. And I'm still confident Earl won't be buying anything.

 

What a load of bull.

RN CLs past tier5 are some of the best performing ships in the game.

Even the non-premium ones without HE. The Fiji for example is one of the finest ships I have played.

 

And considering the Hood is also getting difference, less ricochet prone AP shells if I understand correctly, there's absolutely no reason to think that the overall smaller British guns will not perform just fine. 

The main reason I think you're still blocking so much on the 14" thing is you still to your core don't think it possible in any way for lower than average caliber AP can perform.

That if it's not big enough, it won't have enough penetration and overmatching to be of any use, period.

RN CLs are living proof that you're wrong. 

Same for USN CAs dealing devastating AP volleys to BBs foolish enough to give anything ressembling broadside.

 

Once you realize that caliber doesn't define a ship's worth, maybe you'll understand why it's perfectly ok to have 14" guns at tier8, and even 15" guns at tier10.

Something which oddly enough you aren't very vocal about, despite 15" AP having the same issue as regular 14" AP when used against tier 10s, a lot of which start getting +27mm deck armor and even reinforced bows.

Which is a shame because the same solution could be applied to both calibers, and would be a hell of a lot more elegant than trying to scrounge up some odd 18" or more gun for a paper tier10.

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

And you like a few others, underestimate the capabilities of the KGV class, and how they fit into the game as whole. Lack of the bigger picture. It's easily tier 8 material if you look it at it differently, but you are stuck in a mindset and won't let go (something I am guilty of at times). But at least I consider the possibility of it being tier 7, or a nerfed PoW premium that could complement Rodney. You never considered it at any other tier, lacking flexibility in thinking. 

 

Name is WGs preference. Personally I prefer Thunderer as you will not find that name elsewhere in this game, and others (WoT, looking at you).

 

I don't lack any flexibility in thinking nor do I underestimate the damned ship! The only way that the KGV would be suitable for Tier 8 is the use of 15" guns, with 14" guns it simply will not be competitive in comparison to the other ships it'll be facing at that tier with the exception of the Japanese Battlecruiser Amagi, and as newer lines come out, with the Battleships Littorio and Richelieu it will become even more uncompetitive at that tier simply because it is not fit for Tier 8, and that is down to it's main armament of 14" guns, and it certainly wouldn't be overpowered at Tier 7 like many claim, the armour amidships for one, is only 13.75" thick, in comparison to 14" of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and in terms of firepower, it is close the Gneisenau which is faster, has larger guns (3x2 15") and Torpedos (something KGV lacks). In all, it is not a tier 8 ship.

 

Conqueror will not clash with any other ship in game, and don't see the problem with it sharing the name of a heavy tank.