Why is Midway so extremely bad ?

[LongJohn_]

9 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Hi. Yes i have bouth t10 cvs. 

 

As many noobs i just rushed thrue tiers and did not learn a thing and my stats till t8 on other account are horrible. Some cvs are below 50% so I created account just to train CVS from start. 

 

Still on higher tiers I got allitle better and can say that difference between USA and ijn line pass t7 is hughe in IJN advantage. 

 

Ijn just have perfect tool for everything. In my opinion IJN should lose 1 fighter throu all tiers. It is just stoopid that ijn dominates in air, strike and scouting against USA in strike deck from t8. It is just stoopid that balanced is best deck for USA except t9 and y 8 where t8 is worst ship ever. 

 

Ok. Why the alter account? Its only stats. 

 

T8 Lex has its issues I admit. I fought it through with strike which has been useful later on. Single fighter in Essex strike has its service times and then I play it like strike Lex. 

 

IJN have their points but also bigger challenges. I run into trouble micromanaging squads at Hiryu and stopped that line there. At least for now. USN with fewer squads is easier to manage and you get more out from their potential. I believe IJN have higher potential but I guess I am too potato to get it out of them.

[LongJohn_]

12 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Reload is determined regards number of planes per squad and not squad number. So 12 planes in 3 squads loads faster than 7 planes in 1 squad. 

 

Sure since they service at the same time. Thats why I asked. Put strike Midways 1+3 6-7 plane strike squads hovering over carrier and the same situation to Haku 3+3 squads with 4-5 planes each. Click return to all, let them land one by one, service as they have landed and send them back air as they are serviced, also one by one. Which one is faster?

 

This as pure servicetime test. In actual battle squads arrive from strike different times and traffic at the deck is evened up - with both carriers. Depending on how player schedules his strikes, are squads destroyed etc.

[LongJohn_]

 

Little addition to things above... 

 

I'd say its all about landing and launching. Both carriers have serviced the first squad that landed after the last one has landed. Landing and launching takes it own time. I bet difference isnt that big.

 

And of the flexibility. No, Midway wont have Haku flexibility even sftet upcoming 2-2-2 loadout. Its still two squads short. I know the issue. I know how nice its to use for example Ryijo 1-2-2 loadouts squads and kill near dead enemies with single squad per ship. You cant do this with USN. In this respect playstyle is pretty different and I like that it is. It would be boring to have two nations with practically same ships. USN strenght in my mind is alpha and damage over time. Its not so flexible but it hurts. 

 

For example today bombed three enemy BBs to oblivion with same method. Essex strike loadout. TB+DB attack, pretty massive damage, flooding and fire, they repair, then strike 1-2 other DB squads for more damage and fires. Its not devide and conquer - its hit as it hurts. KG V was first, first blood, it had no chance. Bismarck the second and Iowa last. Easy vic. 

[veslingr]

20 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Ok. Why the alter account? Its only stats. 

 

T8 Lex has its issues I admit. I fought it through with strike which has been useful later on. Single fighter in Essex strike has its service times and then I play it like strike Lex. 

 

IJN have their points but also bigger challenges. I run into trouble micromanaging squads at Hiryu and stopped that line there. At least for now. USN with fewer squads is easier to manage and you get more out from their potential. I believe IJN have higher potential but I guess I am too potato to get it out of them.

i got 14 days premium cupon if opens new account so i opened it :).....and it become my cv training account

[veslingr]

17 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Sure since they service at the same time. Thats why I asked. Put strike Midways 1+3 6-7 plane strike squads hovering over carrier and the same situation to Haku 3+3 squads with 4-5 planes each. Click return to all, let them land one by one, service as they have landed and send them back air as they are serviced, also one by one. Which one is faster?

 

This as pure servicetime test. In actual battle squads arrive from strike different times and traffic at the deck is evened up - with both carriers. Depending on how player schedules his strikes, are squads destroyed etc.

never did that kind of test but i bet Midway wins with minimal margin......but than you have 1 squad in air with 7 planes and he has 3 squads with 12 :=)

it boils down that Haku in 20 minutes game gets 3-4 strikes more....and torpedo strikes which are less rng dependent and can crosdrop which means garant hit on cruiser and dd with a little practice.....nobody can protect 3 side torpedos

[LongJohn_]

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

never did that kind of test but i bet Midway wins with minimal margin......but than you have 1 squad in air with 7 planes and he has 3 squads with 12 :=)

it boils down that Haku in 20 minutes game gets 3-4 strikes more....and torpedo strikes which are less rng dependent and can crosdrop which means garant hit on cruiser and dd with a little practice.....nobody can protect 3 side torpedos

 

Nope. You have 6+7+7+7=27 planes in the air and ready to go, Haku has 3x4+3x5=27 planes in the air and ready to go. Its even. 

 

Of course multiple torp squads give flexibility, no doubt there. But that is not going to change. With upcoming 2-2-2 loadout you can send off 2x6+2x7=26 strikeplanes. Its still not as flexible as 6 individual squads. Even the AP bombs wont change that. IJN is and will remain more flexible option. But what USN has and will have is crazy alpha potential. 2x6 TBs and 2x7 1000 pound AP DB squads. What can you oneshot? Everything?

[veslingr]

10 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Nope. You have 6+7+7+7=27 planes in the air and ready to go, Haku has 3x4+3x5=27 planes in the air and ready to go. Its even. 

 

Of course multiple torp squads give flexibility, no doubt there. But that is not going to change. With upcoming 2-2-2 loadout you can send off 2x6+2x7=26 strikeplanes. Its still not as flexible as 6 individual squads. Even the AP bombs wont change that. IJN is and will remain more flexible option. But what USN has and will have is crazy alpha potential. 2x6 TBs and 2x7 1000 pound AP DB squads. What can you oneshot? Everything?

Problem with USN are lack of 2 tb for crosdrop and rng of bombs. Midway with t 8 will partialy solve this problem. And for first time you will have airsuperiority in main deck:)

[LongJohn_]

32 minutes ago, veslingr said:

Problem with USN are lack of 2 tb for crosdrop and rng of bombs. Midway with t 8 will partialy solve this problem. And for first time you will have airsuperiority in main deck:)

 

You could use stock 2-1-2 loadout for AS. But naturally this is one strike squad short from damage apartment. I notice the crossdrop issue but I've still managed to demolish some DDs with single squad but naturally they have to be a bit dumb to fall for it. USN torps are also in much tighter spread which is harded to dodge compared to IJN spreads. Same with bigger targets. Nice drop little from behind and you can score all 6 hits - even to smaller targets than Kurfurst.

 

Only issue I see with the T8 TBs is the speed. You can spice them up in health but speed is terrible compared to even T9 planes.

[veslingr]

19 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

You could use stock 2-1-2 loadout for AS. But naturally this is one strike squad short from damage apartment. I notice the crossdrop issue but I've still managed to demolish some DDs with single squad but naturally they have to be a bit dumb to fall for it. USN torps are also in much tighter spread which is harded to dodge compared to IJN spreads. Same with bigger targets. Nice drop little from behind and you can score all 6 hits - even to smaller targets than Kurfurst.

 

Only issue I see with the T8 TBs is the speed. You can spice them up in health but speed is terrible compared to even T9 planes.

Whole USA rework will depend on AP bomb and how they will make them. AP bombs will be main source of dmg and it seams USA cv will be more orientated to hunt big bad BBs……but……there is a catch…if they make AP ussles aka some ridiculous 3-6 second lag on drop that even Farazeleth can strike, or some weird penetration that will only pen 3 ships (german BBs t8,t9t,10) in game than we have big problem and line will become even more ussles..

 

If they made AP that hey can reliably strike strike BBs (not onesote but pen dmg) + TB that are weak (t8) to hunt dds and targets after 10 minutes of fight when RN BBs stips them out of AAA than we will have competitive carriers.

[LongJohn_]

1 hour ago, veslingr said:

Whole USA rework will depend on AP bomb and how they will make them. AP bombs will be main source of dmg and it seams USA cv will be more orientated to hunt big bad BBs……but……there is a catch…if they make AP ussles aka some ridiculous 3-6 second lag on drop that even Farazeleth can strike, or some weird penetration that will only pen 3 ships (german BBs t8,t9t,10) in game than we have big problem and line will become even more ussles..

 

If they made AP that hey can reliably strike strike BBs (not onesote but pen dmg) + TB that are weak (t8) to hunt dds and targets after 10 minutes of fight when RN BBs stips them out of AAA than we will have competitive carriers.

 

Yep but is that actually a good plan after all? Difference between T8 and T10 TBs is huge - mainly in speed. Sure you can crossdrop on DDs but if there is even modest cruiser around those planes are scredded before drop.

 

AP bombs are intresting. Havent tried them since they are only usable in couple premium ships... But in 2-2-2 static loadout there will be 2x7 1000 pound AP DBs in the air. Thats 2 more than Air Superiority skilled Enterprice has. But what if the loadout wouldn't change. What 3x7=21 1000 pound AP bombers do to a BB? When you know what 2x6 in Big E does...

[veslingr]

44 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Yep but is that actually a good plan after all? Difference between T8 and T10 TBs is huge - mainly in speed. Sure you can crossdrop on DDs but if there is even modest cruiser around those planes are scredded before drop.

 

AP bombs are intresting. Havent tried them since they are only usable in couple premium ships... But in 2-2-2 static loadout there will be 2x7 1000 pound AP DBs in the air. Thats 2 more than Air Superiority skilled Enterprice has. But what if the loadout wouldn't change. What 3x7=21 1000 pound AP bombers do to a BB? When you know what 2x6 in Big E does...

I have big E. And most of time you have 10 hits for 15k dmg. Except on bismarch and FG which you devastate. 

 

But soon we will have French BBs as fifth bbs line. And Big AP does crap to other nation. Also dmg on cruisers is low but once in a while you citadel them. 

 

USA to be competitive must change AP which are on Big E now. 

[LongJohn_]

48 minutes ago, veslingr said:

I have big E. And most of time you have 10 hits for 15k dmg. Except on bismarch and FG which you devastate. 

 

But soon we will have French BBs as fifth bbs line. And Big AP does crap to other nation. Also dmg on cruisers is low but once in a while you citadel them. 

 

USA to be competitive must change AP which are on Big E now. 

 

If it really is that unconsistent why do you demand AP bombs and at the same time beg for a second torp squad to be more versatile?

 

If your only DB bombload is AP and everyone knows its good only against certain targets what do you think enemy CV does with his fighters? Protect the light cruisers? I dont think so. With "certain BBs only" AP bombs you lose that flexibility. You can strike what ever you want but its useless against most of the targets.

[veslingr]

8 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

If it really is that unconsistent why do you demand AP bombs and at the same time beg for a second torp squad to be more versatile?

 

If your only DB bombload is AP and everyone knows its good only against certain targets what do you think enemy CV does with his fighters? Protect the light cruisers? I dont think so. With "certain BBs only" AP bombs you lose that flexibility. You can strike what ever you want but its useless against most of the targets.

Well you can choose betwean HE and AP but HE are ussles (on Big e) because they are t7 and don't get max HE bombs of USA line. 

 

 

[LongJohn_]

Just now, veslingr said:

Well you can choose betwean HE and AP but HE are ussles (on Big e) because they are t7 and don't get max HE bombs of USA line.

 

 

Yep but how about overall - if they implement same AP rules to high tier non-premiums. Including Essex and Midway DBs. Is that a good or bad thing? Was the AP option or mandatory? It gives theoretical alpha but also loses damage over time effects.

 

How about those Big E bombs, I've understood that HE bombs are 500 pounders and AP bombs 1000 pounders?

[veslingr]

1 hour ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Yep but how about overall - if they implement same AP rules to high tier non-premiums. Including Essex and Midway DBs. Is that a good or bad thing? Was the AP option or mandatory? It gives theoretical alpha but also loses damage over time effects.

 

How about those Big E bombs, I've understood that HE bombs are 500 pounders and AP bombs 1000 pounders?

Every USA ship will be able to choose from AP or HE bombs. 

 

But if you have week TB because of tier you need 2 DB to be strong with direct dmg and only AP fits here. 

Big E AP are very situational. I heard Zeppelin were much better regarding penetration but they had problem with "lag".

 

If they mix Zeppelin penetration and drop of Big E it will be good. But it can be week if they do something else......time will tell

[GeorgeT1012_gt]

In the next update[0.6.14] Midway will recieve a 2-2-2 loadout and the dive bombers can be equiped with HE or AP bombs. Long rearm times for squads are still a problem, but this can be improoved with the apropriate equipement and skills. The next update makes tier 7+ U.S. carriers much more versatile and enables the use of AP bombs by their bombers (tier 8+).

[LongJohn_]

It was before my time but do I remember correctly that the old "op" Midway loadout was the strike 1-2-2? 

 

Even with T8 TBs present might be even stronger. Two T10 fighters to rule the sky, two TBs and two DBs. Can crossdrop DDs, oneshot TBBs, damage over time or insane alpha with AP bombs... Sure those T8 TBs are weak and drop easily but there is also plenty of spares.

[El2aZeR]

9 hours ago, LongJohn_ said:

It was before my time but do I remember correctly that the old "op" Midway loadout was the strike 1-2-2? 

 

I think it was 0/2/3 actually. With the torps dealing as much damage as normal DD ones. On the other hand the bombs were utterly useless (as 1000lb bombs didn't exist yet).

Haku was still far more hilarious since she had 0/5/3.

[lycea]

Yes it was really fun back then, I remember getting my first tier X (yamato), took it out for a spin and 5 minutes later I was back in port :D 

[ollonborre]

19 minutes ago, El2aZeR said:

 

I think it was 0/2/3 actually. With the torps dealing as much damage as normal DD ones. On the other hand the bombs were utterly useless (as 1000lb bombs didn't exist yet).

Just watched some old Midway footage from ~2 years back, it was 1-2-2 that was the broken loadout with Banshee jets as fighters and torpbombers with 2.4k HP and 9800 torpdamage.

[El2aZeR]

Just now, ollonborre said:

Just watched some old Midway footage from ~2 years back, it was 1-2-2 that was the broken loadout with Banshee jets as fighters and torpbombers with 2.4k HP and 9800 torpdamage.

 

Ah, nevermind then.

[LongJohn_]

32 minutes ago, ollonborre said:

Just watched some old Midway footage from ~2 years back, it was 1-2-2 that was the broken loadout with Banshee jets as fighters and torpbombers with 2.4k HP and 9800 torpdamage.

 

Is it far off now? Fighters might be little worse but two squads. TBs are weaker but Midway has huge hangar. Check out latest replay from Flambass where he annihilates ships like Iowa on single TB swing.

[ollonborre]

3 minutes ago, LongJohn_ said:

 

Is it far off now? Fighters might be little worse but two squads. TBs are weaker but Midway has huge hangar. Check out latest replay from Flambass where he annihilates ships like Iowa on single TB swing.

The old Midway and Hakuryu were stronger, with jets as fighters, AA was not as powerful and the planes overall were all insane latewar designs so they were stupidly fast. Even if you saw the strike coming you had no chance to react.

 

So we are still a bit off from the CV dominance of older times.

[El2aZeR]

Not to mention fighters didn't have strafe (so they were utterly worthless against massed strikes) and DFAA didn't exist either.

[Verdius]