WG make me understand

[Zathras_Grimm]

 

Literally what.

 

Most times when I get shafted as a main BB player is at the hands of CA's that out-DPM me. Torpedo avoidance without hydro granted you are not a complete moron at positioning (talking about angling and distance from torpedo-clad ships) is not that hard, but when I got an Atlanta or a Painscola shooting at me, without backup I get deleted. Japanese CAs are pretty much the same but with DD-tier torps to keep in mind that can delete you if you don't keep your eyes peeled, thanks to their range and damage.

 

Hey, I don't personally want BBs to be kings and the rest be scrubs to blow up, but edging in tinfoil hat territory isn't particularly helping your point. The rock-paper-scissor system still works, in one way or another.

 

Rock, paper, scissors? What does the DD beat? (I play Tier V).

 

If you say BBs then I would just like to remind you about spotter aircraft, fighter aircraft, CV aircraft, Radar, Hydro, soon to come RPF and ship aircraft that cover a wider area and are slower so the DDs stay in view longer. We have to fight through the DDs and CAs to get to the BBs lol (and when you consider all these no-go bubbles being formed most of the game is played just not getting spotted nowadays).

 

Torpedo speed nerfed, HE fire nerfed, Vigilance stacked with Hydro, torpedoes doing nowhere near the damage, torpedo armour belts on BBs.

 

 

There have been a 'few' changes to DDs and the environment they play in lately. Impossible to play, no. Although the RPF is just taking away the DD aspect IMHO - no late caps, no sneak through if a CV happens to leave itself open, no torping larger ships with it. We usually still have to contend with CV planes, now there a nice arrow above a ship where concealment is supposed to be the DDs balance for having low HP.

 

 

I think WG just intend to create a scenario where DDs and CAs fight it out whilst BBs fire away at a distance. Once the battle starts to swing one way those BBs can venture forth. They still have their HP, health button, RPF and the enemy DDs/CAs are fragged. Hope I'm wrong, but I have no idea what WG are doing at the moment.

[ghostbuster_]

 

 The concerns of BB players  are in fact just based on their selfish views of the way the game should be played i.e. there should be no threats to them except other battleships. They don't like being burned or being attacked  by ships they can't see. This is indeed an unreasonable position to take, hence some people are derogatory about those complaints.

 

The BB players knew what the game was like, or should have, before they embarked on it, and just want changes to be made to the game to suit them.

 

The concerns of DD layers are legitimate. As I described there has been a continuous progression of changes made to the gameplay clearly intended to reduce the ability of DDs to be effective.  DD players have invested as much time into the game as the BB players to get to the high tiers.  It is their game experience that is constantly being sacrificed in favour of the BB players.  So yes, legitimate.

 

You can't see the difference.  Too bad.

You can change your statement and say "the concern of DD players based on their selfish.... they just want to be able to torp without taking any risk."  And "the concern of BB players are legitimate..."

be objective. For me, there is no difference between BB or DD whiners. This game is developing and of course there are gonna be some changes. All we have to do is to adapt that changes. What i said is that there have been more whine threads from DD players in last months. We all know that this is true. 

(Back in open beta where CVs where insane, yes there were so many whine threads from BB players.)

[Hedgehog1963]

You can change your statement and say "the concern of DD players based on their selfish.... they just want to be able to torp without taking any risk." 

 

And you'd be entirely wrong.

[ghostbuster_]

 

And you'd be entirely wrong.

Well for me your statement is wrong.

[mtm78]

Its funny, because since months all i see on forums is DD players whining. They are the ones who cry the most. Call me liar and you will be wrong.

 

You're a liar. 

 

I won't even go to the trouble of digging up all the whines and cries about 'fires OP' 'HE spam op' 'carriers to stronk' 'smokescreen is total bullcrap' and the list goes on, you can do that perfectly fine yourself.

 

And what if DD players are complaining? They don't have right to do so? IJN DD players that is, USN should rejoice about the new wonderful RPF addition, I know that IF I won't quit in disgust I will switch to just never playing IJN DD's but hunt them down with my USN DD hunters / torpedo boat hybrids. 

[ghostbuster_]

 

You're a liar. 

 

I won't even go to the trouble of digging up all the whines and cries about 'fires OP' 'HE spam op' 'carriers to stronk' 'smokescreen is total bullcrap' and the list goes on, you can do that perfectly fine yourself.

 

And what if DD players are complaining? They don't have right to do so? IJN DD players that is, USN should rejoice about the new wonderful RPF addition, I know that IF I won't quit in disgust I will switch to just never playing IJN DD's but hunt them down with my USN DD hunters / torpedo boat hybrids. 

 

go check the threads. you are gonna see who was whining the most.  and im talking about last 5-6 even 7months.

[mtm78]

 

 

Why not really? I think a game like this need the people interested in the theme to survive, and I do not think those players will be to interested in a strange kind of combined arms naval warfare that really only occured once in real life. Off course I do not want a pure simulator, but the game also needs some similarity to the actual theme it depicts, and the use of CVs and the associated tactics have almost no similarity to real life whatsoever. In carrier battles the limited fuel was a huge importance, keeping the enemy spotted was a constant issue, the distances between fleets were much larger than anywhere near this game and you never ever had a battle with battle worthy CVs on both sides where the planes focused on the enemy BBs. 

 

Omg wanting 'realism' but not wanting CV's in game... you know why BB's went extinct after WWII right? Because WWII proved they were no longer viable. 

 

No CV vs surface fleet engagements? Really? None? Battle of the Sibuyan Sea ring a bell? 

 

 

 

go check the threads. you are gonna see who was whining the most.  and im talking about last 5-6 even 7months.

 

I already did, I was part of a lot of them ( well the one's trying to point out all this catering to the BBabies wasn't making the game any better, point in case is the current oversaturation of BB's ). And as indicated, the IJN DD's which now have 'a high skill cap' ( ) were shafted the most, so I kind of see where those complaints come from. 

[steviln]

So you think the people that are more versed in naval warfare history will be more attracted to the class of ship that had a 30 year period of existence from 1908 until the 1930's before being completely phased out by CVs, which are still today the ultimate source of strength and global power projection for a navy?

 

 

Off course they would be attracted to CVs also, if the CV gameplay had anything to do with actual CV gameplay. I have played both boardgames and earlier SSI style computer games depicting carrier battles, and the CV gameplay in this game have little if anything to do with the actual choices made by CV commanders in real battles. CVs are really so overpowered compared to battleships and cruisers, that in a battle with CVs players should really only play CVs and the BBs and CAs should be bots that gave close to no points in knocking out. Once the CV became dominant, battleships were really nothing but AA platforms that also protected carriers from marauding cruisers and destroyers and sometimes helping with shore bombardment during invasions. Combining surface actions and carrier warfare in a gamle like this was a mistake from the start, and I hope that WG correct this mistake some day. 

[steviln]

Battle of the Sibuyan Sea

 

Now, you are actually repeating things that I have answered several times already. I have in several of these threads, even in replies to you, mentioned this battle as an exception. It happened because the japanese were desperate and because the japanese navy did not have any effective carriers left. Therefore, that battle does not falsify my point because that was not a battle where both sides had effective CVs. The japanese just used theirs as a decoy since their airgroups were almost completely depleted. That was because no commander in their right mind would deploy ships into surface engagements in a situation where effetive CVs were around. I know a RN CV was also in one battle against the italians, but that happened because the RN planes were not very effective at that point. Again: An example of carriers aggressively attacking battleships in a battle where both sides had effective carriers does not exist. The carriers were so dangerous to each other that sinking the enemy CVs were the priority and sinking anything else was simply a "bonus" once all other enemy ship had been dispatched. 

[mtm78]

 

Now, you are actually repeating things that I have answered several times already. I have in several of these threads, even in replies to you, mentioned this battle as an exception. It happened because the japanese were desperate and because the japanese navy did not have any effective carriers left. Therefore, that battle does not falsify my point because that was not a battle where both sides had effective CVs. The japanese just used theirs as a decoy since their airgroups were almost completely depleted. That was because no commander in their right mind would deploy ships into surface engagements in a situation where effetive CVs were around. I know a RN CV was also in one battle against the italians, but that happened because the RN planes were not very effective at that point. Again: An example of carriers aggressively attacking battleships in a battle where both sides had effective carriers does not exist. The carriers were so dangerous to each other that sinking the enemy CVs were the priority and sinking anything else was simply a "bonus" once all other enemy ship had been dispatched. 

 

So it's not "never ever"

 

I will concede it was mostly about CV vs CV, since winning air superiority means winning the war since BB's were even during WWII already getting obsolete But no one wants these kinds of battles and it would make boring gameplay, all ships in formation around the CV's screening them and providing additional AAA. So yeah, BB's were the most iconic and it's understandable that they are 'wanted' by people. But this isn't World of Battleships ( well depends on if you google it and look at EU or NA search results ) and for this game to be fun for everyone you can't have overly prolific BB's in each match. Even WG has said this prior, but then they move on with making sure they will become even more problematic. 

[steviln]

 

So it's not "never ever"

 

I will concede it was mostly about CV vs CV, since winning air superiority means winning the war since BB's were even during WWII already getting obsolete But no one wants these kinds of battles and it would make boring gameplay, all ships in formation around the CV's screening them and providing additional AAA. So yeah, BB's were the most iconic and it's understandable that they are 'wanted' by people. But this isn't World of Battleships ( well depends on if you google it and look at EU or NA search results ) and for this game to be fun for everyone you can't have overly prolific BB's in each match. Even WG has said this prior, but then they move on with making sure they will become even more problematic. 

 

I think they rather should have made World of Battleships instead,and also made another game called World of Carriers. The problem is that if the classes have anything to do with real warships, playing anything else than a CV in battles where CVs are present(Except when you like got a single RN CV with swordfish bomber in a "tier 7" battle ) will not be fun for anyone else. Also, cruisers were employed when the task was not deemed important enough or to risky for deployment of battleships. In real battles one battleship would easily dispatch a cruiser and even a heavy cruiser like Graf Spee were able to hold off three light cruisers. So they have to do some strange things to make all the classes competitive. Earlier I rather thought that battleships felt articifially weak, when people could regulary charge and sink a lone BB in a cruiser with torpedoes or a DD quite regulary. For me the BB heavy meta feels more "thematic" in a sense. 

 

When it comes to what kind of battles player wants. Notice how nobody seem to mention the battle of Leyte but rather the surface engagements of the Kriegsmarine, some battle with the italian navy and so on? I also think that the people that play this game are to a large part adult men who want a game that is a bit calmer than other games. When you have combined actions with two CVs per side and all that the game becomes more "stressfull" like World of Tanks(That in itself propably is to calm for teenagers). 

[mtm78]

For me the BB heavy meta feels more "thematic" in a sense. 

 

Which is utter tosh as for every BB there were multiple cruisers and dozens of destroyers

[Exocet6951]

 

Off course they would be attracted to CVs also, if the CV gameplay had anything to do with actual CV gameplay. 

 

 

As if current BB gameplay had anything to do with actual BB behavior IRL.

 

BBs are probably the furthest from reality, and that's including infinite torpedo DDs that can become invisible.

[steviln]

 

Which is utter tosh as for every BB there were multiple cruisers and dozens of destroyers

 

I was rather referring to the increased BB strength that caused the BB heavy meta instead of the large number of BBs in themselves. And when playing a cruiser I actually prefer to face battleships than other cruisers. Really hate those pesky wolfpacks of cruisers that plagued the game when I first started playing it. 

[mtm78]

So you prefer getting lolpen citadeleted through the nose/but while having to stay around max range to ensure it's not a devastating strike? Meh ok, I don't mind it that much when it's one BB, at max range I can kite and dodge most of the damage from one BB shooting me. When it's more then one and they have brains, cruisers are just death meat. And with the BB heavy meta this is exactly what happens.

 

That's why even Flamu is not using range mods on all his cruisers and no more reload mod, since the meta due to BB abundance has become so static it's all about long range HE spamming as that is the only way to survive long enough to do meaningful damage over time. 

[steviln]

 

 

As if current BB gameplay had anything to do with actual BB behavior IRL.

 

BBs are probably the furthest from reality, and that's including infinite torpedo DDs that can become invisible.

 

At least it have more to do with reality than the CV gameplay. All I am saying that reality is not an argument for increasing the role of CVs in the game. 

[steviln]

So you prefer getting lolpen citadeleted through the nose/but while having to stay around max range to ensure it's not a devastating strike? Meh ok, I don't mind it that much when it's one BB, at max range I can kite and dodge most of the damage from one BB shooting me. When it's more then one and they have brains, cruisers are just death meat. And with the BB heavy meta this is exactly what happens.

 

That's why even Flamu is not using range mods on all his cruisers and no more reload mod, since the meta due to BB abundance has become so static it's all about long range HE spamming as that is the only way to survive long enough to do meaningful damage over time. 

 

I still do better against battleships than other cruisers. When I meet other cruisers it usually does not end well. Actually have higher survivability in the Minotaur thant the Montana. Simply feel that long range fire between cruisers are the most meaningsless part of the game altogether. 

[Exocet6951]

 

At least it have more to do with reality than the CV gameplay. All I am saying that reality is not an argument for increasing the role of CVs in the game. 

 

That's not at all what the conversation was about.

 

You claimed that naval buffs want to play WoWS because of how dominant BBs were IRL, which was the case for the lesser part of 30 years, and since the late 30s and until this day have given way to CVs as being the general public's and history buffs' idea of a dominant class of ships.

 

The only reason people flock to play BBs aren't necessarily because they're iconic, seeing as the most important and talked about class of ship today is the CV, but because they're simply so attractive looking in game.

They simply don't have any critical flaws compared to CA/CLs, and apart from the low tier IJN DDs, that class simply appears subpar at low tiers, really pigeonholing newer players into the "herp derp big ship is better" BB class.

[Spellfire40]

 

Ever since the start of closed beta the effectiveness of DDs have been nerfed and the abilities of the other classes have been relentlessly buffed.  Times were when you had situational awareness as a third row skill;  Now everyone gets it free.  Toprpedo ranges drastically cut; detection ranges increased; the detection ranges of torpedoes increased...  Then Hydro.  Then radar.  Now RDF.  All to protect BBs for who WASD is an inconvenience because they have so much to do and think about while firing twice a minute.

 

If they want us to stop playing DDs it would just be better they came out and said so.

 

​To be fair last stand at T4 WAS horible DDs were practical exp pinatras before tehy fixed that one to T2 as Long as you didnt had a good comander so ist not all doom in gloom but just like IJN CV profited from the new spread neither did the good Points of both that classes goes to the powercreep that seems to heavyly favors BBs. well to an extend with the skill rework even BBs have to Chose to either inrease damage Output or go for staying in game longer. sadly especally CVs got 0 upgrade in their ability to deal with them dicetly (+10 more AA Rating on BSF/AA builds for 2eddary builds posible for BBsat the cost of a bit of survivability on the neg side Aquisition hard to pick with all the usefull t3 skills 1m Fighter uptime nerf ) the so called "Options for CV"  lower dps or compensate for bad CV Players that die anyway when on fire soon.

[Hedgehog1963]

Well for me your statement is wrong.

 

That's because you can't tell the difference.  I already explained that to you as well.

[Hedgehog1963]

 

​To be fair last stand at T4 WAS horible DDs were practical exp pinatras before tehy fixed that one to T2 as Long as you didnt had a good comander so ist not all doom in gloom but just like IJN CV profited from the new spread neither did the good Points of both that classes goes to the powercreep that seems to heavyly favors BBs. well to an extend with the skill rework even BBs have to Chose to either inrease damage Output or go for staying in game longer. sadly especally CVs got 0 upgrade in their ability to deal with them dicetly (+10 more AA Rating on BSF/AA builds for 2eddary builds posible for BBsat the cost of a bit of survivability on the neg side Aquisition hard to pick with all the usefull t3 skills 1m Fighter uptime nerf ) the so called "Options for CV"  lower dps or compensate for bad CV Players that die anyway when on fire soon.

 

CVs were also the victims of the changes made based on demands made by the BB lobby.   This is what Ghostbuster fails to grasp:  Changes have been made to help the BBs almost from the get go.  Any resistance from players of other classes to these changes falls on deaf ears and the changes to the game continue relentlessly to favour BBs.

 

[warbds]

Any DD above tier 6 needs a big nerf the torpedo soup is to overpowered. I do a lot more damage in a tier 6 dd as in a tier 9 cruiser or BB no not a skilled dd driver just a guy who hates dd's in  this form! Close to killingg any dd in team with a not to be found alts not even on ip adres. Spoofing and vpns for the win.

 

Will not reply to this post or any answer again just watch your back DD captain

 

[mtm78]

Any DD above tier 6 needs a big nerf the torpedo soup is to overpowered. I do a lot more damage in a tier 6 dd as in a tier 9 cruiser or BB no not a skilled dd driver just a guy who hates dd's in  this form! Close to killingg any dd in team with a not to be found alts not even on ip adres. Spoofing and vpns for the win.

 

 

Will not reply to this post or any answer again just watch your back DD captain

 

 

Would that be your 13k dmg Farragut, your 8k Fubuki or your 15k pre split Mutsuki, compared with your 25k Baltimore or your 41k North Carolina ( by lack off actually owning a tier IX BB )?

 

Btw thank you for playing Gremyashchy, you're making sure it doesn't look to overpowered

 

 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

Any DD above tier 6 needs a big nerf the torpedo soup is to overpowered. I do a lot more damage in a tier 6 dd as in a tier 9 cruiser or BB no not a skilled dd driver just a guy who hates dd's in  this form! Close to killingg any dd in team with a not to be found alts not even on ip adres. Spoofing and vpns for the win.

 

 

Will not reply to this post or any answer again just watch your back DD captain

 

 

LOLs were give, Lots of them!

[Devantejah]

 

LOLs were give, Lots of them!

 

DD op, please nerf.