Implementation of RDF

[mtm78]

 

tactical concealment is still going to be perfectly viable. Just because you know what direction nearest enemy is doesn't mean you know what it is, or which way it is heading. How you act upon that information is up to the player. There will still need to be some educated guess work where the DD is or might be heading. Is the RDF tracking a stealth Atago or is it tracking a DD?

 

Say if i had RDF on my Edinburgh, and RDF is tracking something i cannot see. Is it the enemy Kagero which i should be able to take care of, or is it the Zao which hasnt been spotted for a while?

 

Do i turn in to the indicator, fire up the hydro, go balls out and prey its the DD? Do i choose to ignore it and let the stealth ship go on its merry way?

 

Is it start of a game near a cap => DD, If not, the DD isn't doing it's job -> leads to more static play. 

[Spellfire40]

2 to 36 at the moment. Considering the outburst and rage even from high profile youtubers and all over the forums, if RDF goes live as is, it's final and inexcusable proof that the devs simply don't care about public opinion at all.

If its fits their Vision its not always good to bow to popular demand. Not that i not totally diagree with the skill because its the antithesis of skill and map awareness. 

[mikelight1805]

But with situational awareness i know there is a DD near the cap when i am detected and cant see anything approaching a cap.

 

I still don't know what is following that DD unless it shoots at me and gives away its position. The same way that i do not open fire on the first target i see. i wait, maintain concealment and asses the situation before opening fire and compromising myself out of position,

 

Even with RDF there is still the cat and mouse, who blinks first scenario.

[Spellfire40]

But with situational awareness i know there is a DD near the cap when i am detected and cant see anything approaching a cap.

 

I still don't know what is following that DD unless it shoots at me and gives away its position. The same way that i do not open fire on the first target i see. i wait, maintain concealment and asses the situation before opening fire and compromising myself out of position,

 

Even with RDF there is still the cat and mouse, who blinks first scenario.

 

Your agist a kagaro in a Benson? Point bow in that directon activate engine boost and there's nothing he can do to get away from you on its own.

[mtm78]

 

Your agist a kagaro in a Benson? Point bow in that directon activate engine boost and there's nothing he can do to get away from you on its own.

 

^^ USN DD's will be a blast to play, very easy to be effective and influential each and every match. 

[Spellfire40]

 

^^ USN DD's will be a blast to play, very easy to be effective and influential each and every match. 

 

well same aplys to ogny Kiew Leningrad Blyska. A lot of stealth relying Torp boats are slower than gunboats especally If they come at you bow on at 40 plus kn and you lose a lot of speed on top while angeling away while they only have to do a beeline on you. They get one chance to torp you after that you rip them a new one unless you have the not often seen case someone others than a DD moved in the 1st few minutes more than 800m

[Capra76]

 

^^ USN DD's will be a blast to play, very easy to be effective and influential each and every match. 

 

I'm not sure about RPF as a USN DD skill, I think I'm tempted more by CE + 3 of DE/SI/Vig/SE.

 

I just think it's going to be too situational in those ships, only of benefit later in the game if you have enough health remaining to exploit it, don't have any capture points to go for, don't have friendly ships with the same skill nearby and find yourself against an un-escorted IJN DD, I think I'd rather just have a better ship all of the time. 

[mtm78]

 

well same aplys to ogny Kiew Leningrad Blyska. A lot of stealth relying Torp boats are slower than gunboats especally If they come at you bow on at 40 plus kn and you lose a lot of speed on top while angeling away while they only have to do a beeline on you. They get one chance to torp you after that you rip them a new one unless you have the not often seen case someone others than a DD moved in the 1st few minutes more than 800m

 

With the exception of Leni those ships have quite bad concealment meaning even with RDF they will not immediately able to hunt for the enemy IJN's. That is why I specifically mention USN. 

 

 

I'm not sure about RPF as a USN DD skill, I think I'm tempted more by CE + 3 of DE/SI/Vig/SE.

 

I just think it's going to be too situational in those ships, only of benefit later in the game if you have enough health remaining to exploit it, don't have any capture points to go for, don't have friendly ships with the same skill nearby and find yourself against an un-escorted IJN DD, I think I'd rather just have a better ship all of the time. 

 

So you tried it on PT and you seen how 'not worth taking' it is? Since I did that to, but came to a completely different conclusion. You don't need AFT, you got enough points for both RDF and CE. 

[Procrastes]

Some people argue that RPF will not be so damaging to the game, because many players will probably choose other skills instead of it. Leaving aside the inherent fallacy of basing an evaluation on an unknown factor - namely, that we do not know in advance which skills will be most popular - I do not consider this to be a valid argument.

It might be relevant, if other skills had been added, that by themselves created an unbalance that would be fixed by also adding RPF. This is not the case.

[mikelight1805]

I am not sure who has asked for RPF, even though i have spoken out in defence of it. I certainly didn't ask for it, as i feel it takes a skill out of the game

 

i am not sure how it can be a justified skill unless it is the trade off for making CE easier to obtain?

[Procrastes]

 

I hear you.

 

At this point, I think it would be a good thing for Wargaming to come out and make a statement regarding RPF, addressing the concerns expressed by us - their playerbase.

It is their game, they can take its development in whatever direction they want - but it would be a nice and sensible thing to do, from a goodwill point of view.

 

[mikelight1805]

I wasn't unhappy with the current set of skills personally. Yes 15 point captains are hard to get but that is the point isn't it?

 

i would be very interested to hear the thoughts behind RPF though

[Capra76]

So you tried it on PT and you seen how 'not worth taking' it is? Since I did that to, but came to a completely different conclusion. You don't need AFT, you got enough points for both RDF and CE. 

 

I don't want AFT, but vigilance, survival and superintendent looks a very tasty combination.

 

I'll try it on PT, maybe I'll change my mind.

[mtm78]

 

I don't want AFT, but vigilance, survival and superintendent looks a very tasty combination.

 

I'll try it on PT, maybe I'll change my mind.

 

I will ofc concede there are other builds which are viable, but if you want to ruin enemy IJN dd's the RDF + CE built is quite capable of that. Even if it makes pretty heavy compromises in other aspects.

 

The thing is: do USN DD's need a buff in hunting IJN DD's? I don't think they do. 

[Spellfire40]

 

I will ofc concede there are other builds which are viable, but if you want to ruin enemy IJN dd's the RDF + CE built is quite capable of that. Even if it makes pretty heavy compromises in other aspects.

 

The thing is: do USN DD's need a buff in hunting IJN DD's? I don't think they do. 

 

Well bad german dd ,-)):

 

[daki]

The thing is: do USN DD's need a buff in hunting IJN DD's? I don't think they do. 

 

I agree there fully.

Hence to play the devil's advocate, the question is: Do you then actually need RDF in a USN DD build?

They are already more than capable DD hunters so the benefit imho is rather marginal.

Of course, choosing skills has a strong personal playstyle & preference component so I would not argue the benefit for anyone choosing it.

Nevertheless based on the testing I have done in case of USN DDs I would rather spend the 4 points as 3+1. 

 

So far the only ship I am maybe considering putting the RDF on is the Fiji & Minotaur (since I play aggressively for the caps with them).

 

Speaking of RDF there was plenty of whine already about it "reducing skill" and whatnot.

The more I think of it, the more I have that nagging feeling that in fact it will just increase the skill gap between average players and skilled players.

Lets be honest, average Joe might be able to use like 20% of this skill potential (i.e. only in very limited number of situations) while skilled players will be able to use its full potential.

A lot of complaints against RDF use as argument the full potential of this skill and disregard the actual fact that most players still cannot grasp radar, hydro (or generally spotting for that matter), and a lot of other mechanics. So it is unrealistic to expect that those players will all of a sudden understand how to use RDF properly.

In other words, bluntly put, I have no worries whatsoever about encountering potatoes running this skill, however dealing with a skilled player properly using it will be much more difficult.

 

Hence after additional testing these last few days, my main gripe with this skill still remains about the possible effect on competitive matches & play.

[Spellfire40]

Sorry to say it diont widen the gap look at Greys vid of teh garde vs Fubuki. the Buuki did everthing right even to the Point that he let the clev Gneisenau take the lead teh 2ed he even tryed to asist he Team it was game over. The only Option were he wouldnt have died was if teh clevland would have fokused on the Garde. Even a trained monkey can deduct that much by an allways on ability with that Impact. A skilled Player might have been carefull but would have no way in hell to deduct that were was a DD expecally when it didnt caped before the BB/CL and was never spoted without that skill.

[daki]

Sorry to say it diont widen the gap look at Greys vid of teh garde vs Fubuki. the Buuki did everthing right even to the Point that he let the clev Gneisenau take the lead teh 2ed he even tryed to asist he Team it was game over. The only Option were he wouldnt have died was if teh clevland would have fokused on the Garde. Even a trained monkey can deduct that much by an allways on ability with that Impact. A skilled Player might have been carefull but would have no way in hell to deduct that were was a DD expecally when it didnt caped before the BB/CL and was never spoted without that skill.

 

I just watched the clip and imho it rather proves my point:

1. Grey is not a potato

2. Fubuki did everything right? Popping smoke the moment he was fired upon and stopping in that smoke while clearly seeing the enemy rushing him - its a potato play in my books.

[mtm78]

In other words, bluntly put, I have no worries whatsoever about encountering potatoes running this skill, however dealing with a skilled player properly using it will be much more difficult.

 

But isn't this what you actually balance a game on? People who know what they are doing? And not joe average potato?

 

If you don't balance around the good people, you will make them overperform even more.

[Spellfire40]

 

I just watched the clip and imho it rather proves my point:

1. Grey is not a potato

2. Fubuki did everything right? Popping smoke the moment he was fired upon and stopping in that smoke while clearly seeing the enemy rushing him - its a potato play in my books.

 

​Well of you have a fast firing CLon your flank and a DD Pops his now spoted from 15km guns you hope it gives the dd somthing others to look after instead racing after a BB do you? ,-) Teamwork is sadly not allways there.

[daki]

 

But isn't this what you actually balance a game on? People who know what they are doing? And not joe average potato?

 

If you don't balance around the good people, you will make them overperform even more.

 

Not in the WG universe

 

And yes, I expect that the new skill system overall will benefit the skilled players more than the average ones.

[NyronGT]

I'll say it, even though many have probably said the same before - RPF. Kills. Stealth. Why would anyone spec into CE when knowing that any flanking/sneaking up attepts will be instantly relayed to the closest opponent? cruisers and/or battleships will know where pesky DDs are and from which direction they should expect torps, rendering the 'surprise' factor irrelevant. Same rule applies to other stealth-reliant vessels (NO, Atago/Takao as examples).

[von_Boeg]

I am not sure who has asked for RPF, even though i have spoken out in defence of it. I certainly didn't ask for it, as i feel it takes a skill out of the game

 

i am not sure how it can be a justified skill unless it is the trade off for making CE easier to obtain?

 

I hear you.

 

This is my concern as well, WHY do the developers want this skill so badly? What kind of situation does it help?

 

The sad thing is that they are NEVER telling us anything, they are never discussing with us. Why not say "we want to take the game in this direction because of this and that" instead of stonewalling everything. 

[Capra76]

 

I will ofc concede there are other builds which are viable, but if you want to ruin enemy IJN dd's the RDF + CE built is quite capable of that. Even if it makes pretty heavy compromises in other aspects.

 

The thing is: do USN DD's need a buff in hunting IJN DD's? I don't think they do. 

 

Testing results

 

Mahan, Shards, capped A, shot up enemy DD in the process, game ended very quickly, no real use;

Benson, 3 cap domination, capping B, learned that Akizuki with inertia fuse shreds Bensons, no real use;

Akizuki, standard battle, Akizuki + inertia fuse also shreds cruisers, not running RPF at expense of this, might even be worth dropping concealment expert for;

Akizuki, Bastion, Akizuki + inertia fuse also shreads Yamatos, WTF?  Also learnt that Bastion is every bit as retarded as everyone says.

 

Not sure what this tells us, other than more testing is required and Akizuki is an absolute monster with inertia fuse.

[mtm78]

Yeah my amount of games was also low but each time RDF was helpful in either killing enemy DD or to deny him cap zone's or flanking opportunities. What I did not meet though is divisions of enemy DD's working together, nor did I really test it in division ( I played some division games with Takeda in Akizuki's but that was more bantering around with strange builds ( well for me ) ).

 

I will be on PTS later tonight when the kids are in bed, if you're in game let's division up