Hr. Ms. Tromp

[Onsterfelijke]

IN the WII era the Dutch played not a major profile but they did an super support role in the britsh naval command in Europe. The submarines did an real number on the axis west and east. The merchant fleet (not in game i know) delivered large amount of goods, troops if they weren't there the war would be different (1940-1943). The surface ships did take part in several battles while didn't went well so with no new ships be build hat part was over after 1942.

 

So cruiser premium ships but a DD line should be no problem at all after a few years.

 

Btw the Dutch spend a lot of money in games i think WG knows this.

 

So Yes Dutch ships but not in any hurray just RN BB/CA French/Italian lines first.

 

[scharnhorst43]

Eventually (..) we will get the Ruyter, Tromp, Jacob van Heemskerck, Java, Admiralen class dds (Kortenaer/Piet Heyn/Van Galen/Witte de with/Evertsen), Gerard Callenburgh class dds and maybe even project 1047 batllecruiser. All you need is a lot(!) of patience.

As much much as I'd like to see these ships as soon as possible in the game we have to be realistic: we'll have to adjust to WG pacing of bringing out new ships/ tech trees.

It's a Russian game where they obviously want to give priority to Russian ships/playerbase (see fictional Russian cruiser line, revamping Russian dds and we still dont have the paper Russian bb line..). This is the reason why we still dont have RN BBs CAs and dds, no French navy and no Italian navy yet.

The Dutch will be implemented after all these forementioned (..) so the wait will be a few years unfortunately to see them ingame. Maybe if we are lucky a few/one of these ships will be added as premium along the road.

[CaptainThunderWalker]

Well, I heard the Italian blueprints are quite hard to obtain, if Wargaming even has them at this point. That is part of why we get the Frenchies first.

If the Italians are very, very persistent in not giving their blueprints, it might be the Dutch come before the Italians.

 

This is also why we get Russian ships first; easy access to blueprints so it isn't too hard to find them.

[mtm78]

Well, I heard the Italian blueprints are quite hard to obtain, if Wargaming even has them at this point. That is part of why we get the Frenchies first.

If the Italians are very, very persistent in not giving their blueprints, it might be the Dutch come before the Italians.

 

This is also why we get Russian ships first; easy access to blueprints so it isn't too hard to find them.

 

Roma is coming, I doubt they would be able to without blueprints.

 

But yes I heard a couple of times how Ansaldo is pretty tough to work with. 

[CaptainThunderWalker]

 

Roma is coming, I doubt they would be able to without blueprints.

 

But yes I heard a couple of times how Ansaldo is pretty tough to work with. 

True but it might be Wargaming already started working on the Dutch before retrieving blueprints from Ansaldo, since the Dutch line is mostly low-hanging fruit right now (AA guns have already been modeled for the British, main guns already for the Germans, blueprints available online)...

I wouldn't be suprised to see the Dutchies earlier than anyone expects, or very quickly after the Italian line (Christmas?).

[mtm78]

I am sceptical, I would hope they would ofc, but I don't want others to become enthusiastic on my behalf and then find out it will be years before we get any ships in the game.

[Historynerd]

Roma is coming, I doubt they would be able to without blueprints.

 

But yes I heard a couple of times how Ansaldo is pretty tough to work with. 

 

That's true. However, in my opinion, it was yet one more reason to get cracking and start doing the dirty work, pounding on their doors until they gave in. Since it sounds to me a bit irritating to hear "Sorry, but we've not started on them yet because the archives are hard to access."

Had I used this line with my professors when I was in college, would they have said "Ah, ok.", or would they have failed me for not doing my job?

 

However, since the *Roma* might be coming (I'll wait some more official confirmation before popping out the champagne), I guess they've done that.

[CaptainThunderWalker]

I am sceptical, I would hope they would ofc, but I don't want others to become enthusiastic on my behalf and then find out it will be years before we get any ships in the game.

 

So am I, actually, because Wargaming has access to low-hanging fruit anyway.

 

Namely more Russian ships .

[mtm78]

You think they will add VMF carriers first huh

 

 

[Robber_Baron]

I can give you an example as to why it's justified to included postwar Russian cruisers (or others vessels) in the game: how about the Russo-Japanese war (1904-1905), which had a significant influence on naval warfare ? This alone justifies the presence of those Russian ships. Now tell me, what significant role did the Dutch navy play in the last two centuries that warrants THEIR presence in the game ?

Frankly I don't see the connection between that war and the post-war Russian cruisers. And even then: how about the Battle of the Java Sea, at the time the greatest naval battle since Jutland? Yes, 'we' lost, but so did the Russians. And to be honest I think the Russians did less in the development of warships, including finishing pre-war designs as designed, while the post-war HNLMS De Ruyter and Zeven Provinciën were completely redesigned with the hard lessons of WW2 in mind.

 

After the Battle of the Java Sea, Dutch ships were involved in the Battle of Cape Bon, and a minor naval engagement in the 1960s around Indonesia. I dare to say they saw more naval action during and after WW2 than the Russians.

 

[Historynerd]

how about the Battle of the Java Sea, at the time the greatest naval battle since Jutland?

 

I don't wish to detract anything, but this is wrong.

One year and a half earlier, the Battle of Punta Stilo (off Calabria) was fought between the Regia Marina and the Royal Navy, involving some 70 ships, including five battleships and an aircraft carrier. The Battle of the Java Sea involved a total of 32 warships, the largest of which were heavy cruisers.

[mtm78]

 

I don't wish to detract anything, but this is wrong.

One year and a half earlier, the Battle of Punta Stilo (off Calabria) was fought between the Regia Marina and the Royal Navy, involving some 70 ships, including five battleships and an aircraft carrier. The Battle of the Java Sea involved a total of 32 warships, the largest of which were heavy cruisers.

 

Wikipedia man, wikipedia!!!1111oneoneeleven!!

[Historynerd]

Wikipedia man, wikipedia!!!1111oneoneeleven!!

 

Wikipedia, Wackypedia.

It's just a tool; you have to use it right.

 

Of course, it doesn't help if an academic, supposedly expert of WWII and Germany, makes a mistake that reeks of inattention, and it gets quoted in the above-mentioned tool... 

[mtm78]

Well.. just saying, someone should go make an annotation there, preferably someone with some actual knowledge on the subject 

 

[Charaid]

 

I don't wish to detract anything, but this is wrong.

One year and a half earlier, the Battle of Punta Stilo (off Calabria) was fought between the Regia Marina and the Royal Navy, involving some 70 ships, including five battleships and an aircraft carrier. The Battle of the Java Sea involved a total of 32 warships, the largest of which were heavy cruisers.

 

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8466

[Historynerd]

http://www.worldnavalships.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8466

 

Um... what do you want to say, by posting this link? I don't understand...

[Charaid]

It's just a little information on the battle you mentioned.......nothing sinister.

[Historynerd]

It's just a little information on the battle you mentioned.......nothing sinister.

 

Oh, sorry. I didn't understand if you were telling me I was myself wrong or something else...

Sorry again. I guess this forum makes me a little paranoid! 

[CaptainThunderWalker]

However, the statement that the Dutch navy saw more action than the Russian navy during WW 2 is probably correct.

 

[Robber_Baron]

Fair point. Never heard of that battle and Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. I've found multiple sites mentioning it, however chances are they got their info from Wikipedia as well. However: I found this, with some pre-internet sources: http://m.ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=23

I don't know then how they came up with 'Java Sea' being the greatest one since Jutland then however.

Gotta look up that battle you (Historynerd) mentioned in my WW2 encyclopedia this weekend, sounds interesting.

[mtm78]

Fair point. Never heard of that battle and Wikipedia isn't a reliable source. I've found multiple sites mentioning it, however chances are they got their info from Wikipedia as well. However: I found this, with some pre-internet sources: http://m.ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=23

I don't know then how they came up with 'Java Sea' being the greatest one since Jutland then however.

Gotta look up that battle you (Historynerd) mentioned in my WW2 encyclopedia this weekend, sounds interesting.

 

Thinking about I remember the discussion about it was that the encounter of the RM was not ONE engagement but several which would make the Battle of the Java sea the biggest singular engagement. That was said as reason somewhere iirc. 

[Historynerd]

Thinking about I remember the discussion about it was that the encounter of the RM was not ONE engagement but several which would make the Battle of the Java sea the biggest singular engagement. That was said as reason somewhere iirc. 

 

I don't want to seem stubborn or anything, but this doesn't seem very logical.

Although the action off Calabria had various phases, it was still an engagement between two fleets that were controlled throughout by their respective admirals. Also, the action lasted at most two hours.

The Battle of the Java Sea began at 16:00 and was over around midnight, including withdrawals and then re-engagements.

 

Besides, it's not like at Jutland all 250 warships present engaged all together at some point, right?

[mtm78]

That is all true, I just remember reading that statement somewhere, that they counted the engagements separately instead of as one. Also, I don't think the Battle of Punta Stilo had any ships actually sunk? 

 

Anyway, I didn't want to start a yes/no debate in this thread and I frankly don't have enough knowledge about naval history on what would constitute a singular engagement and what would constitute as a series off individual engagements.

 

I do think the Battle of the Java sea was the biggest decisive engagement since Jutland ( where Jutland's decisive outcome would be that the fleet never really left port after it ). Or was Battle of Punta Stilo in the same way decisive, did the RM never leave port after it?

[Historynerd]

That is all true, I just remember reading that statement somewhere, that they counted the engagements separately instead of as one. Also, I don't think the Battle of Punta Stilo had any ships actually sunk? 

 

Anyway, I didn't want to start a yes/no debate in this thread and I frankly don't have enough knowledge about naval history on what would constitute a singular engagement and what would constitute as a series off individual engagements.

 

I do think the Battle of the Java sea was the biggest decisive engagement since Jutland ( where Jutland's decisive outcome would be that the fleet never really left port after it ). Or was Battle of Punta Stilo in the same way decisive, did the RM never leave port after it?

 

No, Punta Stilo was not in any way decisive, and I believe I mentioned that. Nor were any ships sunk.

And it was just the first time when the main body of the Regia Marina would sail to meet the enemy.

 

However, allow me to point out that, although no further major engagements were fought, the German fleet did sail three more times.

Also, I'll just observe that it's up to debate the degree of decisivness of Jutland, since the Germans failed to correct the odds in their favour and therefore were still under blockade, but at the same time they survived as a fleet in being, and the British had failed to score a decisive victory. But this is OT.

[TSD_87]

How about this one? Seems more competitive....

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Zeven_Provinci%C3%ABn-class_cruiser