MrConway

Public Test 0.6.0 - Changes for Test 2

321 posts in this topic

I really like the changes in fighter lifetime. They use to stay alive even after the ship died, this can be pretty annoying. Everyone will be able to get a second fighter for only one point so the sky would be full of planes. If they really decided to keep fire prevention the way it was in first test, it is now even more overpowered. Only one fire in the mid section is too much (or too less) in my opinion. Just limit the amount of fires in total to three or even two, without changing the potential areas of fire. BFT is also too expensive, if you ask me.


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I am not a great player (hoping to get there), but have played this game for a while. I would like to add my concern about RDF. I have played it in public test both as a BB and a  DD. 

 

It destroys the element of surprise, which is the key for a DD play. Mere fact that if I know where to point guns on BB can save up to 25 sec.

 

WG, please take it out OR as someone proposed earlier, allow for some kind of radio silence that a player can choose, which will reduce amount of info on minimap. If enabled, it will prevent you from being detected. If you choose to enable it and update minimap, it should have a cooldown and during that time, you will be visible to RDF ships.

 

This game should allow for variety of gaming styles, not just BB shooting from far...

 

 

 

Edited by Zen71_sniper

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Give me a skill that reduces (disrecarding all the other implications) my bloom duration so that I can get back to stealth more quickly when zooming to the front to kill that DD.

 

WG seems to like simple game decissions... The bloom of your hunter is a minor factor on the outcome of a "RPF bot run". What dictates the fate are primarily factors OUTSIDE both combatant hands:

 

1) Speed difference... The most important factor.

 

2) Surface detection radius.

 

3) Effective Firepower of Torpboat backup.

 

There are player minor factors like:

 

4) Individual gunnery skills

 

5) Torpboat bearing control at initial contact. Basically if, when initially encountering the Gunboat, the relative bearing is close to 0º or, if the Torpboat captain is careful in keeping the potential enemy as close as 180º as possible.

 

That's the simplicity and predictibility WG wants to add... 1) and 2) are predictable due to the relations between stealth and speed... Gunboats WILL ALWAYS be visible 1st but, at the same time, Torpboat cannot escape a RPF assisted Gunboat. So the critical factor on the whole encounter is how much HP the Gunboat losses during the time it takes for it to reach detectability range of the Torpboat... I repeat, a Simple recipe even a bot can repeat at 100% efficiency.

 

The bloom of a Gunboat is only relevant AFTER the Torpboat has been sank and, not even that, due to the fact Smoke will be relegated as cover so your friendlies can perform invisifire, a Gunboat commander could reserve it instead to cover himself after the Torpboat has been sank, in those rare cases were there is Backup Firepower still present but, due to their inneficiency, wasn't enough to take down the Gunboat before it sank the Torpboat.

Edited by shulzidar

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== you are still rolling dices who will be the poor guy who is going to post and will get most of the fire? :)

 

I volunteered in this case, in hindsight... :hiding:

 

I can see that there are many valid concerns being brought in this thread, with a majority coming from players who I know are better at the game than me and probably have a better understanding of how changes will impact the meta.

 

We will be providing this feedback to the developers to help them make a final decision for 0.6.0, but I would like you to remember that we are still testing the build and that anything can still change before it hits the live server.


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I must say, using USN DD's on PTS is a blast. Poor IJN DD's don't stand a chance, and because I don't need AFT I can take CE and RPF so good luck killing me before I spot you and good luck trying to get any kind of ambush off on my team as I will be hunting you down relentlessly :hiding:

 

 


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I must say, using USN DD's on PTS is a blast. Poor IJN DD's don't stand a chance, and because I don't need AFT I can take CE and RPF so good luck killing me before I spot you and good luck trying to get any kind of ambush off on my team as I will be hunting you down relentlessly

 

Fletchers are going to become the dominant DD after 0.6.0... They can "clean up" enemy RPF DD users and then can still perform Torpedo launches and Cap Points after enemy RPFs are suppressed.

 

...On the receiving end, Yugumos and Kageros will be effectively removed from the game. Shimas will be relegated, again, to the "absolute boredom" role of the long range torpedo wall spammer.

 

What we will see on the Meta is packs of Gunboats travelling together "cleaning up" cap points in sequence... So instead of the common "a+b issued by a BB player"... We wil see "Starting at A issued by the Gunboat Commander with RPF skill on". Gunboat coordinated Divisions, ofc, will mean insta-afk for enemy DDs...

 

...As I said, WG seems to like predictable recipes to win.

Edited by shulzidar

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I must say, using USN DD's on PTS is a blast. Poor IJN DD's don't stand a chance, and because I don't need AFT I can take CE and RPF so good luck killing me before I spot you and good luck trying to get any kind of ambush off on my team as I will be hunting you down relentlessly :hiding:

 

That is exactly my concern. IJN DD need to spend most of the game evading instead of contributing in a meaningful way, if RPF is around. Here I realized, that USN DD do not need to be that afraid if they hunt actively, while they are still able to launch some spreads of torps in between, because they can dictate the flow of the DD encounters.

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As for competitive play, the skill will definitely open up more options for "Recon" ships and some sneaky strategies, both using the skill and maybe abusing the fact that the enemy team is relying on the skill. In general we think that more options here are better for the game.

 

Dear MrConway,

 

I can think of many games where one or two players is left on the winning team, and will win on points if not killed, against a team with more players.

How can this skill be good in those situations?

 

I see a lot of reasons, but most importantly REAL examples on why to not implement this skill.

 

So I´d like to ask,

Could you(devs) give us real game examples on why it is a good skill, and so good that it outweighs all the bad things about this skill?


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I haven't tested it on PTS,  but shouldn't for Des Moines RPF be instapic after CE?

I mean what do you lose if you pick it? AFT? 


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The answers to the feedback survey...

1.  Make the game better or worst..::  -10 (far away worst)

2. You suggest the game to your friends..::  NEVER AGAIN   (if this sh@t skill remain)

.........


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I volunteered in this case, in hindsight... :hiding:

 

I can see that there are many valid concerns being brought in this thread, with a majority coming from players who I know are better at the game than me and probably have a better understanding of how changes will impact the meta.

 

We will be providing this feedback to the developers to help them make a final decision for 0.6.0, but I would like you to remember that we are still testing the build and that anything can still change before it hits the live server.

 

MrConway, I admire your willingness to "take one for the team." In your position I would have made sure I was as far away from this train-wreak as possible!

 

However, as yet no valid case for RPF has been made. So far the limited response made to defend it is that gunboat DDs & cruisers need help hunting torpedo DDs. Let me assure you if I'm in, say, my Bliska or even Ognevoi I do not need any help to deal with an IJN DD, one on one I will murder the poor thing. I hardly play cruisers so can't speak from experience there but many others who can have stated here that's not the issue. The problem is if you pursue it you are likely to get deleted by it's support. This will not change as a result of RPF. So what we appear to have here is a sledgehammer to deal with a nonexistent problem.

 

Sadly, neither you nor your colleagues have refuted any of the many, many problems I and others have stated RPF will bring to the game so I have to suspect WG can't do so and consider the effects on game-play acceptable. Obviously, the stealthier the ship, the worse it will be effected by RPF but the game-play impacts go far beyond IJN DDs IMO.

 

I once again extend an invitation to WG to explain how and why the points I & others raised earlier are wrong...

 


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What would really help a lot especially at this time during testing would be the devs telling us exactly the reason RPF exists and explaining how they assume it will fulfill the intended purpose. Both of these are very important and currently the "discussion" is in a fruitless loop, because people can't separate feedback between evaluating the original intent and whether or not the RPF skill actually works towards that goal or not and what the undesirable (as we don't know what is considered desirable!) side effects might be. 

Edited by AndyHill

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We put a lot of thought into this change and we don't expect it to be overpowered in ranked as Ranked Battles tend to have more close quarter combat, where spotting is more frequent anyway.

 

This doesn't sound like the ranked meta I whitnessed so far. Quite the opposite actually.

Also, this skill gets more powerful the longer the guy having it survives, naturally, so especially in the hands of good players this will be decisive.

 

As for competitive play, the skill will definitely open up more options for "Recon" ships and some sneaky strategies, both using the skill and maybe abusing the fact that the enemy team is relying on the skill. In general we think that more options here are better for the game.

 

Having talking with quite a few of the competitive orientated people, I have yet to hear from one of them that RPF will "open up" anything for them or that this skill is not a totally horrible idea. Unsurprisingly, they assume that it will result in the opposite, that gameplay will slow down, smoke meta will be more prevalent and flanking attacks will be a lot less common. The issue here is, that the skill tells you where the next enemy is and you usually have two or even three groups. Hence you spread out your RPF among the team and communicate, so you can notice such flanking maneuvers very very early. Those teams will never rely 100% on this skill, but instead will use other information as well, for example CV planes.

 

Contrary to ranked battles, RPF is extremely useful in competitive in the opening stages, when you want to get those caps and want to see where the enemy is going. Once one team loses a ship or two, the whole thing gets exponentially worse for the lagging team while the leading team will be able to use RPF a lot less, since they're leading anyway.


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Evasive action

 

This skill has been changed but it still isn't useful for CVs in my opinion. While it lessens the issue of running out of planes to a degree, it still means a lot less damange for the CV in question, because the planes will take that much longer to return to the carrier. Even if someone usually runs out of planes in a battle, I would not recommend taking this skill because he should be able to adress this by changing his target priority and because the lack of speed, which means they'll be a lot more suspceptible to AA, floatplanes and fighter interdiction. Also, some DBs can current outrun fighters of the same tier, those would lose this advantage.

 

 

Expert Rear Gunner

2 points for the same effect? It's not even worth one skillpoint...

 

 

Firey landing

Not worth it for anybody, especially not when you have to pay 3 points for it while your planes take twice as long to get ready again. If you're in that kind of situation, this perk will not save you. Too expensive, too little effect, drawback outweighs usefulness when it really is needed.

 


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For those complaining about the Akizuki HE pen nerf from 19mm to 17mm. To pen with HE you require pentration power greater than the thickness of the amour, the 180mm Russian guns with 30mm of HE pen cannot pen the Zaos 30mm armour plates. So the 19mm of pen does not allow Akizuki to damage armour >18mm, and there are no amour plates with a thickness between 16mm and 19mm.


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For those complaining about the Akizuki HE pen nerf from 19mm to 17mm. To pen with HE you require pentration power greater than the thickness of the amour, the 180mm Russian guns with 30mm of HE pen cannot pen the Zaos 30mm armour plates. So the 19mm of pen does not allow Akizuki to damage armour >18mm, and there are no amour plates with a thickness between 16mm and 19mm.

 

But wouldn't 19mm + 30% be better then 17mm + 30% or are there no armor plates off relevant thickness?

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Having talking with quite a few of the competitive orientated people, I have yet to hear from one of them that RPF will "open up" anything for them or that this skill is not a totally horrible idea. Unsurprisingly, they assume that it will result in the opposite, that gameplay will slow down, smoke meta will be more prevalent and flanking attacks will be a lot less common.

 

Contrary to ranked battles, RPF is extremely useful in competitive in the opening stages, when you want to get those caps and want to see where the enemy is going. Once one team loses a ship or two, the whole thing gets exponentially worse for the lagging team while the leading team will be able to use RPF a lot less, since they're leading anyway.

I'm not exactly a brilliant player and I tend to avoid the competitive modes, but even I know this is exactly what's going to happen. The game will degenerate into direct confrontations between groups since surprise and tactical maneuvering is completely out of the equation, which also means that the team with the early advantage simply wins. The same goes for random battles (the good ones where there are a few good players left at the end of the game), the stronger team can always force a confrontation on their terms when surprise is taken out of the equation.

 

A useful thought experiment for evaluating this skill is to imagine what it would be like if every ship would be visible on the map at all times.

 

In my view this would lead to a total camp off as the first ship trying to make any kind of a move would be instantly focused by everyone on the enemy team because they would know the move is coming a long time before it happens. It would also make it easy to avoid unfavorable engagements, there wouldn't even be any need to risk anything to get information. Of course RPF isn't quite this powerful, but I would really, really like the devs to tell us exactly why they want to go into this direction.


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 Consider to remove IJN DDs please.

 

 

 

Hell no, this would mean I lose 90% of my ships as dedicated IJN DD Captain and I can start all over again from scratch. And I know many IJN DD Captains have this line as specialization. There are enough mechanics in-game to counter us in a fun and engaging way already that makes for interesting "chess play" between IJN and the other nations already which is fun for BOTH instead of "free kills" for the Sovjets, Germans and USN

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But wouldn't 19mm + 30% be better then 17mm + 30% or are there no armor plates off relevant thickness?

 

That was what zombie just said

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Mr. Cornway, as 99% of the other ones posting (the ones THAT TRULY UNDERSTAND HOW THIS GAME IS PLAYED) allready mentioned, RPF is just broken (AND I PLAYED IN BOTH TEST SERVERS ENOUGH GAMES TO BE SURE ABOUT WHAT I SAY!) Simply because:

  • skilled players will abuse it (it was NOT funny to sealclub the poor poor other players with RPF and i am NOT a f***g star player)
  • Game will become even more passive and lemmingtrained because nobody will want to risk beeing front line anymore
  • DD and CA population will drop because of the negation of flanking and this will lead to a even more massive population of BB-s .. I thought you said you wanted the opposite.. strange.. 
  • new players will not understand it and will be disapointed by a game RULLED BY "HAKERS" and so they will QUIT !!!!!!! New customer retention will DROP INTO OBLIVION!
  • ambushes and mind-games are going to become pathetic so YOU WILL FACE LOYAL CUSTOMERS LOSS 
  • late game will become a nightmare for those that are beeing outnumbered. You can just remove the reward of Solo Warrior..... 
  • competitive game will disapear because ... well.. people understand why
  • and many other reasons that others have posted.

 

The whole ideea of the tree changes and commander elite XP is very good. But this one skill removing RPF is just so broken that i simply consider leaving the game. I play games for the challenge, for the mind games, for the possibility to outplay and outsmart others, to test myself. This is just not right. Can''t understand how LOW KNOWLEDGE OF THEIR OWN GAME the develpopers have if they didn;t see the problems that this "skill" brings to the game.... It will definitely NOT be very helpful for the NOOBS if that was what it was planned to do. It will simply be a tool for the ones knowing to use terrain, map awareness and positioning in order to abuse it! 


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That was what zombie just said

 

No he just said basic pen of HE I was wondering about the +30% perk in combination with either 19mm base pen vs 17mm base pen.

 

I know I should just look it up myself but I am lazy ( and playing on PT atm.. I got my [edited]kicked by a Shima in my first Fletcher game  :hiding: ). Which kinda hurt my pride :D


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Hell no, this would mean I lose 90% of my ships as dedicated IJN DD Captain and I can start all over again from scratch. And I know many IJN DD Captains have this line as specialization.

 

Just a few "hints" for ppl liking conspiracies:

 

- Why do you think WG gave to IJN DDs an additional line of HE gunboats... That currently is stopped at EXACTLY T8? Why WG reconfigured the IJN Torpedo line to be sure T8 & T9 steps were slow + short range torpboats before reaching a T10 boat that "suddenly" becomes faster and deadlier as Torpboat? Why is T8 carefully chosen as the "choke point" on Captain Progress?

 

- Estimate which is the Premium Ship that has triggered more income for WG until now... Now think on why WG is making, patch after patch, the entire game environment safer and more newbie friendly for one and ONLY ONE class... Find any relation?

 

- Which is the highest Tier per Class achievable by premium ships? Still do not find a relation with all this changes?

Edited by shulzidar

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Btw torping via Magical Radar only is goddamn super effective if you time it right . People do not expect torps aimed at them if they are not spoted :trollface: If you know last position of enemy, top speed it is possible to judge their movements only by RPF data


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Hey, Dev guys,

 

I have played one battle with the skill for two planes. As soon as you press the button for launching planes, the timer 1 minute starts. But what happens - it takes about 5 seconds for the first fighter to take off, so it is really operational for 55 seconds. What is more frustrating - the second fighter takes off something like 15 seconds after the first one, so it is OPERATIONAL ONLY for 45 seconds! So fix - either launch both planes immediately, or start the timer when the planes are OPERATIONAL in the air.


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No he just said basic pen of HE I was wondering about the +30% perk in combination with either 19mm base pen vs 17mm base pen.

 

I know I should just look it up myself but I am lazy ( and playing on PT atm.. I got my [edited]kicked by a Shima in my first Fletcher game  :hiding: ). Which kinda hurt my pride :D

 

Well, it depends on whether there are any armour zones between;

 

  • 17*1.3 = 22.1mm
  • 19*1.3 = 24.7mm

 

From what I remember, there's no important difference between the two. If the second one had crossed the 25mm threshold, then maybe it would have been more interesting.

 


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