Public Test 0.6.0 - Changes for Test 2

[Ken_Itchi]

 

RDF will stay in the client at least for the second iteration of the public test, this decision was made after looking at the concerns voiced by the community and careful evaluation of the test data.

 

We will have more detailed information on why we we made this decision soon and I am happy to try to address specific concerns and questions about the skill here. 

 

Dear Mr. Conway,

 

is it really wise for a profit orientated company to completely disregard / ignore the voice of your customers ?

Please remove RDF from the final 0.6.0 patch.

[Boris_MNE]

Is there anyone who actually aproves RDF here? haha

 

[Nethraniel]

Is there anyone who actually aproves RDF here? haha

 

 

Not really on EU server... but reddit/RU community is more important than us here... and the russians still think, the news skills will be a BB nerf...

[Spithas]

 

Dear Mr. Conway,

 

is it really wise for a profit orientated company to completely disregard / ignore the voice of your customers ?

Please remove RDF from the final 0.6.0 patch.

 

You are not the voice of their customers. Maybe 1% of it. WG customers are the casuals. That's what they care about 99% of the time. That's where the money comes from and that's what WG is really good at i.e. knowing what the casual wants specially marketing wise (though they sometimes mess that up too Xmas Convoy style).

 

As far as game mechanics go they are terrible. Able to setup a decent backbone for the game but beyond that they are very bad at knowing how to tackle the balance of "easy to get into hard to master" and expand their game without wrecking the balance and at the same time provide more depth for those who wish to invest in it.

 

Instead they just pander to the requests of the casuals and resent any mechanic they implemented that is too hard for the casual to understand or handle.

 

RPF is part of this.

[Vanhal]

 

1. Akizuki: armor penetration of 100-mm HE Type8 shell was reduced from 19 mm to 17 mm.
   • This is a purely technical change, as 19 mm was not enough to match 19 mm DD plating. In 0.6.0, players who would like to penetrate 19 mm plating with 100-mm HE shells, should use the Inertial HE Fuse skill.

 

Dear WG. Balancing ships with the assumption that everyone will take certain skill is a stupid thing.

 

Remove HE entirely. And please punish skillbased gameplay harder.

 

Wait what. Did you really somehow connected words "skill" and "HE"?

 

[Vincinzerei]

Somehow WG always find a Way to Screw up theyr Game and drive good People away..

 

 

[MrConway]

 

What is the purpose of this skill? What does WG believe this skill counters?

 

Why does WG have no problem with adding skills that completely replace User Skill and / or hurt tactical elements of the game?

 

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

The idea is also not to remove a layer of skill, but add a layer of tactical choice in the skill-tree and on the battlefield.

 

How did WG evaluate the impact of RPF on ranked and organized play for DD players?

 

We put a lot of thought into this change and we don't expect it to be overpowered in ranked as Ranked Battles tend to have more close quarter combat, where spotting is more frequent anyway.

 

As for competitive play, the skill will definitely open up more options for "Recon" ships and some sneaky strategies, both using the skill and maybe abusing the fact that the enemy team is relying on the skill. In general we think that more options here are better for the game.

 

 

Dear Mr. Conway,

 

is it really wise for a profit orientated company to completely disregard / ignore the voice of your customers ?

Please remove RDF from the final 0.6.0 patch.

 

We will keep looking at all the feedback, but we will not always be able to make decisions based solely on it.

 

From my part, I can only ask that you guys keep testing the current build and keep providing great feedback. We will make sure that it is heard.

 

[Boris_MNE]

 

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

The idea is also not to remove a layer of skill, but add a layer of tactical choice in the skill-tree and on the battlefield.

 

 

We put a lot of thought into this change and we don't expect it to be overpowered in ranked as Ranked Battles tend to have more close quarter combat, where spotting is more frequent anyway.

 

As for competitive play, the skill will definitely open up more options for "Recon" ships and some sneaky strategies, both using the skill and maybe abusing the fact that the enemy team is relying on the skill. In general we think that more options here are better for the game.

 

 

We will keep looking at all the feedback, but we will not always be able to make decisions based solely on it.

 

From my part, I can only ask that you guys keep testing the current build and keep providing great feedback. We will make sure that it is heard.

 

 

 

 

Then I nicely ask you to give us skill tier I called " RADIO SILENCE" where we will be able to COUNTER THIS dumb skill.

[Culiacan_Mexico]

 

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. 

 

Thank you.  Now I have an idea of what to test.

[LordMeru]

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

Since you can take up to 3 lvl 4 skills it won't be "at the expense of another skill" since there aren't other very usefull skills for DD at that tier. Every DDs will take Concealment Expert AND RPF (plus AFT or Survivability Expert at lvl 3). 

[Z_OnkelE]

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

These expectation are wrong because this skill is just so powerful, that in order to have a chance against it, a hunted DD needs to pick it up him/herself. It is in a way an all-or-nothing-skill: either noone uses it or everyone needs to pick it up. And because of this every DD build needs to invest the points, regardless how high the costs are.

 

Just please, give up the idea this skill is necessary. It will not help the gameplay at all. The possibilities to abuse it are too numerous.

[IVemo]

I would like to say changes you are making are all very likeable! It is very nice to see you are giving people options to deter almost any kind of an element they see as "irritating", specializing to fight against that one particular aspect. It teaches people the fact that they must have to do compromises, cannot get all, but can choose to exclude one especially annoying aspect, which should result in, e.g., less forum whine. From now on, you can always argue there is a way to have something, but at a cost.

 

However, in that vein, I feel CVs were again left without anything.. really. Is there any chance you could revisit their skills and actually create useful ones because there is no reason to pick any at the moment? For example, remove def fire from CVs and replace firey takeoff with that. 

 

On RPF specifically, a thought came to my mind about a middle ground: What if you divided the skill into 2 x 4 point skills that are both required for it to function well? That would, I think, be costly enough to justify its existence in the community's eyes.

[StuntMan0369]

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

The idea is also not to remove a layer of skill, but add a layer of tactical choice in the skill-tree and on the battlefield.

 

Here's the thing; we can already be DD hunters. We have Hydro, Radar and more importantly, our brains. Hunting a destroyer is currently a battle of wits; they have the stealth and mobility advantage, but the hunter typically has the upper hand in a straight up duel. Hydro will mitigate the torpedo threat, Radar will give you a brief moment of clarity of their position (Even if you don't spot them with it, you know they're a certain distance away at the minimum). Throw RPF in there, and suddenly the DD has no stealth to speak of. They're constantly lit up, with no counter measure. Radar has the counter of it's reload and limited range, hydro even more so but at the benefit of torpedo detection as well. RPF has no downside.

 

Also, you say it's for DD hunting, but let's be real here, BB's are gonna take it for the immunity factor. They'll still have 15 points, which allows a full Secondary build or even a full AA build. I have no qualms with you trying to encourage a DD hunter type build, but don't do it with a 'skill' that has no counter.

[IVemo]

On RPF specifically, a thought came to my mind about a middle ground: What if you divided the skill into 2 x 4 point skills that are both required for it to function well? That would, I think, be costly enough to justify its existence in the community's eyes.

 

Basic RPF skill @ 4 points: Shows location of nearest ship, but the nearest ship sees your location, too.

Counter RPF skill @ 4 points: Your location cannot be determined by radio positioning. This would make the basic RPF not to show your location to the enemy.

 

Hence, both required to get the same functionality.

[Crow_Eschatologist]

 

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

But this is tripe!

In an engagement 'DD hunters' reasonably expect to have an advantage (i.e. Gunboat vs. Torp Boat or Radar CL vs. DD) therefore assuming the hunter finds the hunted they have the advantage.

RPF assists the hunter in finding the hunted.

In order to counter this (for example, to avoid wandering too close to a stealthy gunboat or radar boat using RPF to maneuver for a proxy spot) the hunted needs to also know the hunter's position.

The only way to do this is by taking RPF - so you know the nearest position of your likely hunter.

Therefore for any stealthy ship that fights near the front line it definitely is a must take.

 

In addition any smoke using ship that doesn't take RPF is probably braindead as it serves as an additional warning system:

1. Pop smoke.
2. Is the nearest visible thing pointed at by RPF?
3. If 2 is false start running as someone is either rushing smoke or closing to liberally seed your smoke with torps.

 

I think you grossly underestimate the value for constant 'free' information for the measly sum of a single 4 point 'skill'.

[Egoleter]

 

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

The idea is also not to remove a layer of skill, but add a layer of tactical choice in the skill-tree and on the battlefield.

 

There already are hydro, radar, spotting planes and mark-I eyeballs. All these things can make the life of a DD hard. All these things can be countered. Radio Position Finding has no counter at all. There is no defense against it.

 

As there is no defense against it, it will not add any new strategies to the game but remove a lot of them.

[JiksTBS]

 

RDF will stay in the client at least for the second iteration of the public test, this decision was made after looking at the concerns voiced by the community and careful evaluation of the test data.

 

We will have more detailed information on why we we made this decision soon and I am happy to try to address specific concerns and questions about the skill here. 

 

The way that is worded makes it look like WG have already decided RPF will stay in but I digress...

 

OK then, let's look at what this anti-skill takes away from the game. If you disagree with any of my points please explain why I and the rest of the pitch-fork waving mob are wrong.

 

- Flanking for a surprise attack. Nope, they know you are there so no AP/torps into the enemy broadside as they know you are over there. Flanking will now be ineffective & in fact downright suicide in many cases as you will end up pincered.

- Early cap contests using stealth/terrain/smoke/positioning to gain an advantage for your team. Can't do that either as RPF points straight to where you are.

- Ambush plays for any class using terrain as cover, i.e. US CA lurking behind an island for the chance of an AP salvo into the broadside of a BB. Can't be done, he knows you are there.

- Aggression in general, i.e. you are in a DD forward spotting for your team who are pushing, as yet undetected. The simple fact you are attempting to basically do your job gives the game away. Also, in any class if you are the furthest forward you can now expect all enemy guns to be trained on you before you are detected and can expect to get nailed. It's hard enough to get people to press the W key as it is, RPF will punish being first into action and the consequences for how people will respond to this is fairly obvious IMO.

- Torpedo attacks from stealth. Nope, enemy knows you are there so this will become much less effective.

- Entering the radar range of a BB or cruiser so equipped. This will be a death sentence as the enemy guns will already be trained on target.

- Any kind of smart play that requires the enemy not knowing where you are. For example one of my favorite ploys is to lay a smoke screen while contesting a cap & then making sure I am absolutely nowhere near it & watching my opponents torpedo/shoot/charge the smoke. Obviously, this won't work now.

 

I could go on but I think that's enough for now, let's next look at what RPF will encourage:

 

- Passive play. Since being closest to the enemy will now be far more dangerous there will be even more hanging back than now. Is this really what the game needs?

- Second line torping. Not being closest to the enemy will be the only way of getting a surprise torp attack in so why not use your ally as bait & fire torps past him towards the enemy? That is going to end well, isn't it?

- Blobbing. Since flanking, being aggressive, etc are now much more dangerous we are going to see a whole mass of ships in a blob all trying to avoid being singled out by RPF.

 

Lastly, huge nerf to player skill, the fun factor & game balance will also be negatively effected. I honestly cannot think of a single problem RPF solves & it may well cause even more problems than the one's I've spotted. Dumbing the game down in this way is clearly not what we players want, RPF takes away much of what makes WoWs unique to the extent the game is changed fundamentally. I would find it's implementation incomprehensible and, frankly, unforgivable.

[Mayv]

As for competitive play, the skill will definitely open up more options for "Recon" ships and some sneaky strategies, both using the skill and maybe abusing the fact that the enemy team is relying on the skill. In general we think that more options here are better for the game.

 

I can see how it will be used in competitive. RPF is pointing this way, CV go scout there.

[Verdius]

 

The idea behind the skill is to improve the role of DD hunters that is crucial to all cruisers and some destroyers. While the skill will certainly be a powerful one, it has quite a high cost and will come at the expense of another skill. We expect this to be an efficient option for these ships, but definitely not a must.

 

I don't think 'DD hunters' are underperforming at the moment and need such a buff. IJN DDs for example, the ones most likely being hunted are already bottom of the foodchain in battles. Ships like Fletcher, Gearing, Udaloi, Kebab, Soviet cruisers, Belfast and other high tier CL that might fall under the DD hunter definition seem to preform just fine as is. It will just restrict the players being hunted while not offering a more skillful or interesting experience to those DD hunters. The only counter to this skill is taking this skill yourself, which just means that it is an just extra tax imposed upon these players in order to not get run down while not improving the experience for either side. It is unneeded, unbalanced, unwanted, takes away from skill, and takes away from my (and probably many others') enjoyment.

[RobS80]

 

RDF will stay in the client at least for the second iteration of the public test, this decision was made after looking at the concerns voiced by the community and careful evaluation of the test data.

 

So wait. You are saying you looked at the hundreds of people stating it was game breaking and yet it remains?!

[Spithas]

Conway,

 

Lots of people already replied to you about RPF being a tool for the DD hunters but let me summarize in a concise manner:

 

1) DD hunting isn't a problem currently. The game already features an abundance of tools for that purpose, Hydro, Radar, Situational Awareness coupled with low concealment etc. etc.

 

2) The issue the DD hunter faces primarily and most importantly is not lack of  knowledge of the direction of it's prey it's dealing with the supporting ships. If WG believes that cruisers currently don't DD hunt enough it isn't because they don't know which direction the closest DD is it's because of the danger presented to them by their prey's supporting fleet and inability to mitigate this.

 

3) The main problem is that this skill doesn't only affect DD hunting it affects the majority of the gameplay and provides unwarranted awareness in situations which it isn't called for and for which proper scouting should be employed and not some artificial automatic skill.

[FallenOrchid]

We will have more detailed information on why we we made this decision soon and I am happy to try to address specific concerns and questions about the skill here. 

 

== you are still rolling dices who will be the poor guy who is going to post and will get most of the fire?

[Culiacan_Mexico]

So... basically, RPF stays, therefore there is really no point in jumping on a test server at all.... 

I can not see them walking this skill back any further (it use to give the exact location).  If the completely removed it, then those that approval this skill going this far might have to take responsibility.  Easier to put it in the game and then blame the player base.

 

As for the test server, a captain skill respect is coming and the test server is the best place to try different builds.

 

---------------------------

Takru -Posted 28 December 2016 - 08:49 PM

Sub_Octavian - "...Yes, we have kept "Radio Positioning", while listening to ST feedback AND your "theoretical" concerns. This is why the skill is now 4 points and it shows a sector, not exact location.."

-------------------------

[mtm78]

You can not test RPF, since you don't know which ship on enemy team has the perk. You can only showcase what this skill does for the one's using it, not the one's being victim of it.

 

Therefore, this call to 'test' it is imho utter bullocks, and any objections from the many people who conceptually already know this skill is broken as hell, will just be dismissed ( as evident so far ).

 

PT statistics are never disclosed, WG can put up any 'reasoning' they want and community will just have to accept it. It's all just smoke and mirrors. 

 

It removes a layer of skill, WG says: we don't want to do that, but it also offers more options. It does not. It's a must have skill for DD's, both DD hunters and torpedo boats who are having to avoid DD hunters. WG says: we want to give more choice: but they add a skill which is going to be taken 100% by all players who know what they are doing, because they realize there is no other choice. 

 

Removing concealed flanking and ambushing is just done to cater to the bad players, who just like pointing their guns and hearing 'boom'. The same goes for all changes which favor BB's, and the 'desire' to move away from stealth firing ( distance concealment, not smoke or islands ). Those are the players which give WG the most money, since they can't perform on a sufficient level to sustain their ships without premium account and premium ships. But WG will loose a lot of good players, and hopefully entire competitive scene will just walk away or at the least totally forbid this skill from being used in tournaments -> wg will have lost one of it's biggest promotions ( competitive play / e-sport however you want to call it ). In the end, WG will lose more then it will gain.

 

edit:

 

Sub_Octavian - "...Yes, we have kept "Radio Positioning", while listening to ST feedback AND your "theoretical" concerns. This is why the skill is now 4 points and it shows a sector, not exact location.."

 

There are some concerns about this 'sector' usage, since if it were sector based it would be jumpy when moving between borders of sectors. This isn't the case, the movement is totally fluid. 

 

The image file is located in an swf file called 'danger'

 

That should be a nice indication right  

[lup3s]

 

RDF will stay in the client at least for the second iteration of the public test, this decision was made after looking at the concerns voiced by the community and careful evaluation of the test data.

 

We will have more detailed information on why we we made this decision soon and I am happy to try to address specific concerns and questions about the skill here. 

 

If RDF will stay, I would like to have an option to go Radio Silent in my ships.

Preferably as a default option / key (like the engine power or rudder shift keys, e.g. the B-key), but it could also be an extra consumable for every ship in the game that lasts for a decent amount of time (e.g. 3 minutes duration; 90s cooldown; 3 charges).

 

The effects of going Radio Silent would be:

- RDF won't be able to get your bearing.

- You can't see ships you're not spotting yourself.

- Your team can't see ships that are spotted only by you.

- F-keys won't work.