Are IJN destroyers just bad or am I missing something?

[_Teob_]

IJN used to be about their longer range torps, not just their alpha. That's also much more historical, but yeh it's a game right

 

Still 'strange' that Gearing can torp from outside of radar ranges and for IJN to be effective you have to be so close..

 

True. Things have changed, friend.

 

I for one think that ALL DDs should be able to torp from outside radar range. Your success rate will take a massive hit but you're safer relatively.

Which I always make the point that we shouldn't be discussing why the Gearing can do it rather why the hell can't IJN boats can't. 

[Takeda92]

If the IJN had their old HE damage and fire chance, Yugumo might have had a chance to equal to Fletcher, but they nerfed it.

 

Or maybe give it the torpedo reload booster, in a separate slot.

[mtm78]

 

True. Things have changed, friend.

 

I for one think that ALL DDs should be able to torp from outside radar range. Your success rate will take a massive hit but you're safer relatively.

Which I always make the point that we shouldn't be discussing why the Gearing can do it rather why the hell can't IJN boats can't. 

 

It would be lower risk for far lower hit ratio but it would make for picking when you need to take that high risk. Gearing and Fletcher are both to good a torpedo boat ( well, Gearing has range but way less potential dpm ofc ) to offset being better at everything else as well ( except concealment but the gap there is not big enough ).

[_Teob_]

I don't think the Gearing is too good of a torp boat. I mean it's supposed to be decent at it. The Fletcher... that's another story. I strongly believe that the T9 shouldn't be that close to being better than a T10. 

 

Most of us agree that IJN boats need a buff. The main issue is how do you balance a boat that can fire 15 20k+ dmg torps. The potential for deletion is massive. Maybe lowering the detection range for torps (thus making deletion almost a certainty) but increasing the reload time...? This is just for the Shima, which is over-nerfed but having less of them around did make the game more fun for the rest of us. It's a bit of a moral conundrum.

 

I also think that they should stop trying to balance the other IJN boats along with the Shima. Just give the Shima unique torpedoes and balance the other IJN DDs separately. Historical accuracy be damned. You just can't balance a boat that fires 15 torpedoes at the same time with ones that fire 8-9.

 

One thing that I don't want personally is for IJN boats to get better guns. In my mind they should be torpedo boats. 

 

The way I look at it is:

IJN - deletion torpedo boats

KM - utility torpedo boats 

USN - hybrid 

VMF - uncontested gun boats

[DominusEdwardius]

two other things the Fletcher does better than the Yugumo, AA and smoke (is the latter really necessary any more? If I recall it was only added to assist the US destroyers during CBT with the intention of allowing them to better smoke fire to compensate for having worse torpedoes than the IJN DDs).

 

In terms of raw AA DPS, Yugumo does 88 which is very good for an IJN DD (excluding Akizuki of course!) although it is still nowhere even close to the Fletchers 134. In addition the Fletcher can also mount defensive AA fire consumable making the AA even better if warranted.

 

Then the smoke, the Yugumo deploys smoke for 20 seconds and lasts for 93 seconds, the Fletcher on the other hand deploys for 29 seconds and lasts 129 seconds!

[mtm78]

two other things the Fletcher does better than the Yugumo, AA and smoke (is the latter really necessary any more? If I recall it was only added to assist the US destroyers during CBT with the intention of allowing them to better smoke fire to compensate for having worse torpedoes than the IJN DDs).

 

In terms of raw AA DPS, Yugumo does 88 which is very good for an IJN DD (excluding Akizuki of course!) although it is still nowhere even close to the Fletchers 134. In addition the Fletcher can also mount defensive AA fire consumable making the AA even better if warranted.

 

Then the smoke, the Yugumo deploys smoke for 20 seconds and lasts for 93 seconds, the Fletcher on the other hand deploys for 29 seconds and lasts 129 seconds!

 

Longer smoke was because low tier USN DD's all had very low range torps at first, so they had to use offensive smokes for both torpedo attacks and for HE spamming. But they gave them longer range torpedoes later on without making their smokes last shorter.

 

That is, iiirc

 

[W0Z]

Got the Yugumo a few days ago and love it (even stock)

 

It's not Torpedoe Boat but a long range sniper pew pew. Torps are there to stop people getting too close. Today I got the range upgrade for the guns and now I have a range of 15.5 and the max bloom is 9.5. 

 

[gR3iF]

I think you should realy get to use the 8km F3 Torps. This are the ones which works best. They are a straight upgrade from the 10km torps.

 

WHY? Okay let me phrase it this way: Every player going to Kagero should at the latest point reach 15 points capitain on the kagero. This leads to a 5.4km detection range on the kagero and something in that 5.x favor on the yugumo.

This paired with 10 and then 8km torps leads to a point where you can be shure to do dmg with every torp salvo.

Saying that: 2-3 torps normally leads to 40-50k Dmg oder just deleting a cruiser/ DD. 

 

There lies the power of this line. As a downside yeah you dont have the best dmg per minute  but your guns are still pretty decent. May it be you favor aft or hp buff, both works.

 

 

Having said that: Now straight up to you question. What to do against a fletcher: First oft all dont go alone somewhere. Always try to encourage some teammates to come with you. 

Then start manouvering in a way that you have a plan for exit. Going straight up into a cap, bow on to the fletcher, having then to turn and run away normally ends in deletion. But thats okay.

So what to do: Drive in to a cap from the side, start your turn before: So have it done halfways. Start positioning your guns correctly. Dont stand still, go 1/4 speed.

If you are detected: Decide: Engage the fletcher? F8 torps can easily hit him and because you are pre-turned, you can now torp him without moving. Or run away? 

Torp and run? That depends on: how many enemy ships can fire at you and him, where is his position? Will he eat a torp?

Otherwise smoke and turn right, you will loose a goodf third of you hp, but sometimes you torp that fletcher, sometimes you dont but youre alive.

 

 

I know much work to do and to decide, but normally you can win this and if not then the fletcher player was better, so please respect his skill too.

 

 

 

To your situation this morning: If you get spotted by a lexington and then chasen down by the fletcher, then its now the ships fault. Getting detected by an cv is something a ijn dd has to withstand. Sometimes you can slip past with smoke, but normally you should drive in to the 7km range of another ship to get AA cover. Nothing uncommon.

 

 

 

AND yes I know there are games with totally retarded teammates which arent anywhere near a cap, doesnt help, doenst hit a thing and you just loose. But thats happening to all. So overcome it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MoveZig]

I considered grinding to the Akizuki but I think I'll hold off to see how the skill changes and stealth shooting nerf affects them. If there's one line that'll get shafted hard by RPF, it's IJN DDs. Whereas stealth shooting is apparently crucial to Shira and Akizuki. In fact Shira seems to have two things going for it: stealth and the torp wall. Let's see how it is when the former is taken away.

[mtm78]

I think you should realy get to use the 8km F3 Torps. This are the ones which works best. They are a straight upgrade from the 10km torps.

 

WHY? Okay let me phrase it this way: Every player going to Kagero should at the latest point reach 15 points capitain on the kagero. This leads to a 5.4km detection range on the kagero and something in that 5.x favor on the yugumo.

This paired with 10 and then 8km torps leads to a point where you can be shure to do dmg with every torp salvo.

Saying that: 2-3 torps normally leads to 40-50k Dmg oder just deleting a cruiser/ DD. 

 

There lies the power of this line. As a downside yeah you dont have the best dmg per minute  but your guns are still pretty decent. May it be you favor aft or hp buff, both works.

 

 

Having said that: Now straight up to you question. What to do against a fletcher: First oft all dont go alone somewhere. Always try to encourage some teammates to come with you. 

Then start manouvering in a way that you have a plan for exit. Going straight up into a cap, bow on to the fletcher, having then to turn and run away normally ends in deletion. But thats okay.

So what to do: Drive in to a cap from the side, start your turn before: So have it done halfways. Start positioning your guns correctly. Dont stand still, go 1/4 speed.

If you are detected: Decide: Engage the fletcher? F8 torps can easily hit him and because you are pre-turned, you can now torp him without moving. Or run away? 

Torp and run? That depends on: how many enemy ships can fire at you and him, where is his position? Will he eat a torp?

Otherwise smoke and turn right, you will loose a goodf third of you hp, but sometimes you torp that fletcher, sometimes you dont but youre alive.

 

 

I know much work to do and to decide, but normally you can win this and if not then the fletcher player was better, so please respect his skill too.

 

 

 

To your situation this morning: If you get spotted by a lexington and then chasen down by the fletcher, then its now the ships fault. Getting detected by an cv is something a ijn dd has to withstand. Sometimes you can slip past with smoke, but normally you should drive in to the 7km range of another ship to get AA cover. Nothing uncommon.

 

 

 

AND yes I know there are games with totally retarded teammates which arent anywhere near a cap, doesnt help, doenst hit a thing and you just loose. But thats happening to all. So overcome it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tell me again why Yugumo has to be within 8km and Fletcher can torp from 10.5 which is a lot safer with all the radar cruisers around? Or Shima within 8km, when Gearing has 16.5km torpedoes?

 

So what to do: Drive in to a cap from the side, start your turn before: So have it done halfways. Start positioning your guns correctly. Dont stand still, go 1/4 speed.

 

You mean going broadside to the point you expect the enemy DD to be at? Even while moving you won't always have time to react to a good torp salvo when going broadside. 

 

Also, have you actually played Yugumo? It's not showing up in your list. Kagero ( now tier 8 ) can't use the F8's anymore . You're obviously a better IJN DD captain then I am, but your words don't seem that applicable to me when I read them. 

 

Maybe you could try teaching it to me in game? 

 

edit: my good captain is currently in Shiratsuyu and Akizuki so I would have to retrain one of them for Yugumo or Shima, and probably respec to ( if I would take Akizuki for sure ). 

 

[gR3iF]

We can play a few rounds if you like Contact me ingame and we can meet in Ts and then go.

 

 

 

No i havent played the Yugumo since I was done with Kagero and sitting on the Shima. Right now I have the Kagero/Akatzuki T8 and the shima in port. 

I do play the Kagero with pseudo F3 Torps, I did take the capitains skill for torp speed. Works okay for me, but I do play Kagero with torp reload consumable, so I might be bit off.

 

 

 

 

Regards the Fletcher/Gearing Torp decision: I think the speed and the dmg of the F3 Torps needs to be balanced and this is done by lowering range of this torps. I would say that a BB cant turn out of the F3 torps, because they are too fast. 

Having said that, I can clearly see your point with: Hydro, Radar, Spotting Planes and so on. I try to overcome this by using island cover, having a good look at the minimap so I do know which will come at me next.

One thing I do notice is that the 5 torp salvo of us dds tends to spread more, then shimas 20km salvos. So this might be a point (although it doenst matter at close range, but at close range F3 are just better ;)

This really leads to a situation which cant be solved in a short forums post.

 

I do think that Flamu showed some good Shima F3 Gameplay in this vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3yG2RwtioQ

 

 

 

 

[gR3iF]

You can take Yugumo or Shima, whichever you like. I do have T9 and Tx DDs.

[mtm78]

Awesome  

 

Always glad when better players then me are willing to show me some insight I seem to be lacking

[PzAbteilung]

when the second line came out, i had the fubuki, i got the kagero instead, and my first matches were very good, like 70k dmg in the first 6 or 7 games.

Now i dont hit nothing, all people dodges my torps.

Am i mistaken, or some weeks ago the kagero had 76 km torps instead the ones she has now??

[Thracen]

Yeah the kagero now is very bad. If you get close enough to torp effectively any CC or DD can chase you down because you are too slow both in a straight line and in the turn. The torps are slow and have a massive spread at max range making them too easy to avoid. Oh and I just played a game today where 4 enemy ships couldn't equip hydro, 1 dd 2 amgis and a CV. How the hell are you mean to torp when like that? ambush? Sure but you're dead anyway because if you let anything get within 8km they will chase you down and kill you because you are slower than a bowel movement.

 

F3s are the only thing making the IJN dds worth a damn, that and shimas massive payload, which she pays for with a huge cool down.

 

I used to love the IJN dds, now I hate playing them.

[Dams_77]

I just bought the shimakaze, otherwise at Benson and Kiev. IJN are just very bad, terrible ships compared to others. Not 20 games played on shima, and I'm about to sell that S$!,*. USN and soviet DD are a lot of fun, IJN DD are not, this is sadly as simple.

[MoveZig]

Welp, patch has been out for a few weeks and I really don't see many people using RL. Maybe IJN DDs aren't screwed after all.

[Dams_77]

In addition I used to like my kagero before 0.6.0, on which I had BFT and AFT (BB harassing mostly, also self defense), in other words some guns... . Ok their ballistic is awesome, but with such a slow rate of fire (6 sec reloading), it's a no match versus every other DD. Bad luck as you are supposed to be in first line. On the other side, you have torpedoes every 2 minutes which are very questionable versus USN ones. And as for any torp launched, you'll miss most of them, except versus "straight liners".

 

PS : RPF is just a very bad skill (have it only on my shima to avoid surprises :/ ), but this is not the most important problem of those ships.