Is AA to strong on HT?

[True_Winterfeld]

Hallo everyone,

 

yesterday, on Flamus stream, I did witness how a Minotaur downed 71 (seventyone) planes of a TX CV. You can say nice but from a neutral point I have to say, seriously WG? I know, its an arcade game so historical references are always kind of edgy but in WW2, even with the full AA spec like the Cleveland, no ship downed nearly 71 enemy planes or CVs would be immediately obsolet. Hell, even modern AA systems arent that effective.

 

What my real point is, this cant be a fun experiance for a CV skipper that whole regions of a map become no fly zones. It kind of sucks. My first thought was that the whole AA mechanic needs a rework so that both sides are satisfied. I would like to see after witnessing this, of course this is all theory and sadly I cant put it into test nor do I know if the following would be even possible with the current game engine, that the stronger the AA gets the more the accuracy of the DB/TB bombers suffers. Like dispersion works on guns at range. You could have the autodrop, with higher dispersion but lower possible loses on planes or the manel drop where you have more accuracy but you will lose more planes in a strike. So you have a choice as a CV skipper. Do I go for the auto, with less planes lost or do I go for the manuel with increased loses but less dispersion.

 

The absense of CVs is kind of sad because it changes the game so much if you have CVs in a match. What are your thoughts on this issue?

[KaraMon]

If a MInotaur shot down 71 planes it is not his fault , it is CV that sent planes one by one another after another to the slaughter  .

 

MInotaur have good AA , but it is far from anything that would block good cv player from atacking it . In most cases good player will lose at most 25% of his planes during the atack and after it

 

 

CV absense is caused by several factor, yes greatly improved AA is one of them but we have insanely bad economy for cariers , terrible UI (20 years ago some very bad rts games had much better UI)

[beercrazy]

this aint real life pal its a game

on another note no carrier would have been able to send up squadrons that could attack and come back then refuel rearm and then attack again multiple times in 20 mins cos as I said its a game

[ollonborre]

Yes AA is bonkers, and the Minotaur AA is long range and really strong. But it got no defensive AA (it got smoke, so fair enough you can stay hidden and pop planes), in this regard a Des Moines for example is more effective. As it is right now the Minotaur has an average 4.1 plane kills per match, and the Des Moin 4.0. And again Defensive AA brings a ton of utility.

 

As for AA in general, I just think it's too strong, and CV's are being screwed over constantly for no apparent reason. They nerfed CV's a while back but they keep on kicking on them.

[Dominico]

The AA in game is a bit insane. But then the issue is carriers dominate if not for this. I guess they had to put in some system which lessons thier overall impact. Personally I would have changed the damage or time to re arm to make their damage lower. The AA just feels a bit stupid. Especially when carriers dominated the later tiers in reality.

[Redcap375]

There are a few ships you don't touch with a CV barge-pole, the Minotaur is one of them.  Then again, so are all the other tier 10 cruisers to be honest and 3/4 of the tier 9 ones.  They are end game targets or situational ones (Defensive cool down and not playing attention). If you do attack them then its cool and you might even sink one if your really lucky, but the odds are sooooo stacked against you. Just don't expect to have any planes flying back out alive.

 

Its an all or nothing target. 

 

But i'm cool with that to be honest, its a cruisers job to stop us Pesky CV captains.  Its the AA on BBs and some DDs which is the kick in the head, not cruisers. 

 

The "AA" problem is just messed up and we all know that. 

[Redcap375]

If a MInotaur shot down 71 planes it is not his fault , it is CV that sent planes one by one another after another to the slaughter  .

 

MInotaur have good AA , but it is far from anything that would block good cv player from atacking it . In most cases good player will lose at most 25% of his planes during the atack and after it

 

 

CV absense is caused by several factor, yes greatly improved AA is one of them but we have insanely bad economy for cariers , terrible UI (20 years ago some very bad rts games had much better UI)

 

I Could have sworn you said 25%? 

 

You mean 75% right??  I can easily shoot down 25% of tier 10 planes in my Tier 6 Cleveland (Skill 81 AA) 

 

But your right about economy and AA...

 

[tajj7]

Redcap375, on 10 January 2017 - 08:35 AM, said:

But i'm cool with that to be honest, its a cruisers job to stop us Pesky CV captains.  Its the AA on BBs and some DDs which is the kick in the head, not cruisers. 

 

 

DDs shouldn't be a target of CVs either. The fact you get so much XP and credits for doing little damage to DDs is a bit off IMO.

 

It's also to stop CVs just parking a fighter squadron over a DD and basically ruining his game, one tiny part of a CVs gameplay (i.e. one fighter squadron) should not be able to completely hard counter a DD, that is why those AA changes were made.

 

It's BB AA that is generally the problem, along with their agility, but then it's just one thing in the big list of things that were nerfed because they threatened BBs.

 

------------------------------------------

 

It also should be noted the Minotaur is pretty much a tier 10 Atlanta, it was designed as basically an AA cruiser with fast firing and turning turrets to take out jets. 

 

If anything (aside maybe a DM) should be a no go areas for planes it's a Minotaur. 

[cro_pwr]

Biggest problem with Minoutaur is that he can boost his AA bubble above his detection range, so you lost your planes before you even noticed there is a Minoutaur sitting there.

Ofc, he needs some other ship to scout that planes for him, but its pretty insane anyway.

[Synth_FG]

The only time I'd go near a Minotaur with planes is when he's hiding in a very small smoke bubble 

A long range torp drop through the smoke will at worst flush him out for the rest of your team to shoot at 

[avenger121]

..................

As for AA in general, I just think it's too strong, and CV's are being screwed over constantly for no apparent reason. They nerfed CV's a while back but they keep on kicking on them.

 

......................................................

The "AA" problem is just messed up and we all know that. 

 

Latest available 1 week server stats for EU: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20161224/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

ship	Hakuryu	Midway	GK	Yamato	Montana	Minotaur	Zao	Moskva	Hindenburg	Des Moines
avg dpg	117,4k	94,3k	87,2k	90,8k	83,3k	72,3k	83,9k	80,6k	68,8k	68,8k

 

 

CV WEAK AND UNPLAYABLE ((((((((((((((((((

 

MUH CV META BACK WHEN??!11!!11!

[Ghostychan]

Biggest problem with Minoutaur is that he can boost his AA bubble above his detection range, so you lost your planes before you even noticed there is a Minoutaur sitting there.

Ofc, he needs some other ship to scout that planes for him, but its pretty insane anyway.

 

similar with the Akizuki - although she doesn't do as much damage (up to 7.2km AA range, air detectability when firing AA is 5.8km).

(Also thinking of getting a 2nd Akizuki captain with 0.6.0 - one with manual AA and sh*t, and one for anti-ship-combat)

[Redcap375]

 

DDs shouldn't be a target of CVs either. The fact you get so much XP and credits for doing little damage to DDs is a bit off IMO.

 

It's also to stop CVs just parking a fighter squadron over a DD and basically ruining his game, one tiny part of a CVs gameplay (i.e. one fighter squadron) should not be able to completely hard counter a DD, that is why those AA changes were made.

 

It's BB AA that is generally the problem, along with their agility, but then it's just one thing in the big list of things that were nerfed because they threatened BBs.

 

------------------------------------------

 

It also should be noted the Minotaur is pretty much a tier 10 Atlanta, it was designed as basically an AA cruiser with fast firing and turning turrets to take out jets. 

 

If anything (aside maybe a DM) should be a no go areas for planes it's a Minotaur. 

 

And i completely agree but he's the rub m8...

 

We have been forced to hunt DD more and have been for a while.  I know its messed up and i'm with you but there you go.

 

Spotting DDs is one of the most important tasks a CV captain can do.  You take that away and what's left, truly? IJN Fighters planes don't last long above Gearings and the like anyway, you know that.

 

 

 

[Redcap375]

 

 

Latest available 1 week server stats for EU: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20161224/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

ship	Hakuryu	Midway	GK	Yamato	Montana	Minotaur	Zao	Moskva	Hindenburg	Des Moines
avg dpg	117,4k	94,3k	87,2k	90,8k	83,3k	72,3k	83,9k	80,6k	68,8k	68,8k

 

 

CV WEAK AND UNPLAYABLE ((((((((((((((((((

 

MUH CV META BACK WHEN??!11!!11!

 

Didn't say it was unplayable, its just mess up 

[avenger121]

Didn't say it was unplayable, its just mess up 

 

Yeah it is messed up, the class with the highest mobility/flexibility, highest survivability and best scouting abilities is allowed to do this much dmg. Cant wait for WG to wake up and nerf the shít out of CVs.

[tajj7]

 

And i completely agree but he's the rub m8...

 

We have been forced to hunt DD more and have been for a while.  I know its messed up and i'm with you but there you go.

 

Spotting DDs is one of the most important tasks a CV captain can do.  You take that away and what's left, truly? IJN Fighters planes don't last long above Gearings and the like anyway, you know that.

 

 

 

 

Well yeh they don't but that is because they gave them defensive fire for that very reason to get rid of pesky CV fighters spotting them the whole game. 

[ilhilh]

 

Yeah it is messed up, the class with the highest mobility/flexibility, highest survivability and best scouting abilities is allowed to do this much dmg. Cant wait for WG to wake up and nerf the shít out of CVs.

 

Bad troll. Get back under your bridge.

[ollonborre]

 

Yeah it is messed up, the class with the highest mobility/flexibility, highest survivability and best scouting abilities is allowed to do this much dmg. Cant wait for WG to wake up and nerf the shít out of CVs.

 

How about non tier 10 CV's? Ever tried a tier 6 CV in a tier 8 game? You are literally the most useless ship in the entire game in that state.

[Kuningas_Arthur]

 

 

Latest available 1 week server stats for EU: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20161224/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

ship	Hakuryu	Midway	GK	Yamato	Montana	Minotaur	Zao	Moskva	Hindenburg	Des Moines
avg dpg	117,4k	94,3k	87,2k	90,8k	83,3k	72,3k	83,9k	80,6k	68,8k	68,8k

 

 

CV WEAK AND UNPLAYABLE ((((((((((((((((((

 

MUH CV META BACK WHEN??!11!!11!

 

Thing is, there's an argument to be had that CVs require way more skill to have any effect in them. In ships you basically point and click and randomly spam torps and you will mostly do at least some damage or a lucky torp hit against another idiot, but a complete bob playing CVs using automatic targeting, not knowing it's not very wise to go after a tier 10 CL with your tier 8 planes, getting constantly zero hits and getting his squadrons constantly wiped out by the enemy CV fighter sweeps will very quickly put that bob off from ever touching CVs again. He will never reach tier 10 so the CV players who do reach tier 10 are the good ones who actually are able to hit things and thus find the CV play style rewarding.

 

As it stands now there's too big a difference in automatic and manual launching of torps and bombs where good players can do crazy stuff and torp DDs out of the water but bad players can't even hit the broad side of a BB and there lies the problem I think. How to find a way to make CVs a bit easier in the hands of a bob but not make them even more effective in the hands of someone who knows his crap.

[avenger121]

Bad troll. Get back under your bridge.

 

Poor you. I know it is hard when someone shatters your imaginary beliefs with simple numbers.

[Redcap375]

 

Bad troll. Get back under your bridge.

 

I know, its sad really.

[creamgravy]

Bah, I wish played against high tier CV players like that.

[ParEx]

Hallo everyone,

 

yesterday, on Flamus stream, I did witness how a Minotaur downed 71 (seventyone) planes of a TX CV. You can say nice but from a neutral point I have to say, seriously WG? I know, its an arcade game so historical references are always kind of edgy but in WW2, even with the full AA spec like the Cleveland, no ship downed nearly 71 enemy planes or CVs would be immediately obsolet. Hell, even modern AA systems arent that effective.

 

What my real point is, this cant be a fun experiance for a CV skipper that whole regions of a map become no fly zones. It kind of sucks. My first thought was that the whole AA mechanic needs a rework so that both sides are satisfied. I would like to see after witnessing this, of course this is all theory and sadly I cant put it into test nor do I know if the following would be even possible with the current game engine, that the stronger the AA gets the more the accuracy of the DB/TB bombers suffers. Like dispersion works on guns at range. You could have the autodrop, with higher dispersion but lower possible loses on planes or the manel drop where you have more accuracy but you will lose more planes in a strike. So you have a choice as a CV skipper. Do I go for the auto, with less planes lost or do I go for the manuel with increased loses but less dispersion.

 

The absense of CVs is kind of sad because it changes the game so much if you have CVs in a match. What are your thoughts on this issue?

 

The coin clearly has 2 sides.

First, yeah a Minotaur sure has great AA, but maybe a CV is not the right ship to counter 100AA Rating ship? Same as other classes. A CV should not be able to sink every ship, there are certrain "I may just skip that dude over there, no chance for me"-occasions here. Do you attack a BB in a CA at any circumstances?

 

Second: When a Minotaur has shot down 71 ships he has done his job. And the CV made really big mistakes, see above.

 

I dont own a Minotaur, but I can tell from the Atlanta I love (maxed on AA, so AA Rating 79 which is great for Tier7):

In nowadays more popular CVs at midtier (due to missions) I got an average of 23 (!!!) shot down planes per game in my Atlanta during the Weekend, max was something at 50.

Some CV Captains doenst seem to get where NOT to go. They come to you over and over again or just dont care where their planes go on the way home. Easy prey.

I often see Tier5 or 6 CVs trying to kill me when I am toptier - dont they check AA rating in the loading screen or know which ships not to take on?

[Redcap375]

 

Well yeh they don't but that is because they gave them defensive fire for that very reason to get rid of pesky CV fighters spotting them the whole game. 

 

There you go 

[Kuningas_Arthur]

Some CV Captains doenst seem to get where NOT to go. They come to you over and over again or just dont care where their planes go on the way home. Easy prey.

I often see Tier5 or 6 CVs trying to kill me when I am toptier - dont they check AA rating in the loading screen or know which ships not to take on?

 

You overestimate the average player base. the level of micro managing you need to do to keep all your squadrons safe, out of the way of the highest AA enemies and enemy fighters, in the action doing damage and dropping enemy planes is huge, and believe me, there are players to whom a simple point-and-click is already hard to fully understand and execute at the same time as picking their nose.