Is AA to strong on HT?

[Panocek]

So, Moskva doesn't have good AA?

Jesus, things that you can read on this forum...

 

Well, Moskva is weakest of the T10 cruisers AA wise. Sure, you can stack range upgrades for "OP" 8.2km range on large caliber guns, but thats still mere 111dps, with second aura adding another mediocre 124dps and 50dps from short range dakkas. Even Zao has more dps

[Redcap375]

Hakuryus at tier 10 should wreck stuff.

Midways at tier 10 should wreck stuff.

 

There at the top of the food chain.

 

A Hakuryus (a tier 10 ship) should be able to wreck a Iowa (a tier 9 ship). Considering its 1) a CV and 2) Its a CV's main line target, BBs apparently. What would happen if it didn't/couldn't? Can you tell me how many planes i would lose doing it in an equal tier CV (Taihos). Wait no, how many planes would i lose doing it in a Hakuyus? considering its a lower tier by-the-way?

 

Again, with the greatest respect Allufewig, You have played in a CV right? You've played this game for ages m8 if i remember.  Last time i saw you was in a DD i think with a div? 

 

But your right, a good CV player can control any given battle, no doubt.

[ParEx]

Besides all that talking about cruisers...

 

... does anybody remember the advertising for US-DDs in closed beta when they were announced as AA-Supporter?

[Redcap375]

Besides all that talking about cruisers...

 

... does anybody remember the advertising for US-DDs in closed beta when they were announced as AA-Supporter?

 

Oh yeah  

 

[Date_A_Bullet]

 Is AA to strong on HT?

 Simple conclusion for me:

 

On some ships yes.

 

Imo no single ship should be able to wipe out all active planes alone, like a Des Moines can (even without AA upgrades and signals).

 

[Redcap375]

Quick question now i think of it chaps.

 

How many here use a Plane fighter?  I do for my Gne and Cleveland only.  Anyone use them on tier 8+ ships? just wondering.  I've seen more and more of them recently for some reason which is odd.

[ParEx]

Quick question now i think of it chaps.

 

How many here use a Plane fighter?  I do for my Gne and Cleveland only.  Anyone use them on tier 8+ ships? just wondering.  I've seen more and more of them recently for some reason which is odd.

 

A fighter is good for spotting Torps, a decent CV Captain will evade it or just shoot it down. Thats why they get nurfed for BBs in next patch.

[cro_pwr]

Quick question now i think of it chaps.

 

How many here use a Plane fighter?  I do for my Gne and Cleveland only.  Anyone use them on tier 8+ ships? just wondering.  I've seen more and more of them recently for some reason which is odd.

 

On all my high tier BBs, and on some of my cruisers that.

[allufewig]

But your right, a good CV player can control any given battle, no doubt.

 

 

I think it is a pretty dumb idea to cry for AA nerfs considering the fact that a competent CV even now is the strongest and most influencial ship in the battle. And it rarely happens that T9/10 CVs get de-planed. Giving them the ability to strike at will without fear of losses is completely not acceptable.

 

Before WG can think of nerfing ship AA they have to lower the skill-ceiling of this class, or at least some IJN CVs. (Not sure if this is desirable on its own). CVs might have many Problems, but power isnt one of that problems.

[Freyr_A2]

 

Tier 10 CV right...Probably US? No doubt its the hardest of all planes in the whole game to down and your a tier 9, that at tier 9 cruiser? I would hope it would be a little harder to down the planes a tier below.  Still tho, 6 US tier 10 torp planes isnt bad is it.  That's ALOT of the CV fire-power gone just like that, puff  Also means that if he sends a group of planes one by one, you will technically destroy them peice-meal right?

 

What about a tier 9 IJN CV? Or a tier 8 IJN CV? Or even if the mm gods are against you (we have all been there ) ,a tier 7 IJN CV with tier 6 plane (Hiryu)?

 

Look chaps, i'm not against cruisers being Plane killers you know that, but does everyone understand why there are so few CV players? Apart from mission times when its forced upon them. Its because of the messed up AA and lack of experience XP.

 

I think 2 torp squdrons and 3 bomber squadrons is Japanese.  And that works out as basically one plane out of each squadron so 2 torpedo bombers, and 2-4 dive bombers.  I don't know what sort of percentage that is out of the striking force, but it's not exactly game ending losses for the carrier when it usually means that something on the opposing team dies, IMO.

 

 

Personally, having played CV's I think the reason there are so few CV players is that the gameplay is mind numbingly boring and generally not fun, and people play the game for fun.  Personally I finished with the Ranger and then quietly sold the carrier and didn't buy the next CV.  Then again, towards the end I was just using the fighter lead-out and deliberately putting the opposing carrier out of the game by chasing off or shooting all of the aircraft down, followed by spotting DD's and bombing/burning alive anything isolated.

 

And on that subject, as a CV player I think that most carrier players are pretty poor in terms of skills.  Sure, most carriers have manual torpedo drops down to a fine art, but even at the highest level there is virtually no use (or understanding of) using fighter strafing to down big blobs of aircraft enmasse, as evidenced by big strafeable blobs of unescorted bombers going unchallenged.  I've strafed down big blobs like this with a single squadron and been accused of cheating, followed by a rage quit from the opposition carrier.

 

And why do Tier X carriers just throw in 3 squadrons of bombers in a blob?  I'm hesitant to point out that if you use single squad of bombers on a manual drop and they hit repair, then a following torp attacks causes flooding damage.  Or if they don't repair on a single bombing squad then they take fire damage, then repair on the torpedoes to get rid of the flooding and give you another 2 opportunities to cause fires through bombing that they can't repair.

 

 

That CV's do as well as they do despite absurdly poor levels of use of two thirds of their aircraft IMO puts how absurd carriers are into perspective, IMO.  And the complaints about AAA?  Seriously?  Carriers are not supposed to be able to singlehandedly wreck the opposition.

[Redcap375]

 

 

I think it is a pretty dumb idea to cry for AA nerfs considering the fact that a competent CV even now is the strongest and most influencial ship in the battle. And it rarely happens that T9/10 CVs get de-planed. Giving them the ability to strike at will without fear of losses is completely not acceptable.

 

Before WG can think of nerfing ship AA they have to lower the skill-ceiling of this class, or at least some IJN CVs. (Not sure if this is desirable on its own). CVs might have many Problems, but power isnt one of that problems.

 

My good man. I don't cry, i'm British 

 

A CV should be the most influential ship should it not? Its a Aircraft carrier. That is why there is only one of them at high tier.   I'm saying that as a mainly cruiser captain by-the-way.

 

But your right, A CV should not be able to strike without fear of losses, i'm with you on that one just like any other WOWS player knows. Its like saying an orange is orange.   But when i can swat away 2 groups of torps, tier for tier, in a BB then something is wrong.  Now you do the same situation with a tier below CV, it gets worse (less plane HP). 

 

I can do that in my Gne without any aa mod cons, wont even tell you what it does with Manual AA (like when i was waiting for Secondary desperation skill and put it on that for the time being), dear god. Plus, AFT?

 

NC? You know what im getting at.  Of course they are some targets available (IJN BBs, Shiny Horse) that are easy, bit like a BB sinking a Cruiser, as we cant have every ship with really good aa can we now.

 

DDs are having a hard time at the moment regarding CVs.  Can anyone tell me why? A poor CV player wont even touch them but a good one can change the course of the match.  CVs should not be resorting to actively hunting DD's but we do don't we? So what is WG going do, give them more AA? (upcoming new captain skills BFT 10% more). I can live with this tho as i do think they are having a hard time (looking at you Bis). But its not the right thinking, changing one problem without looking at the other side of the fence first.

 

I understand why people hate CV's, i truly do.  But if you don't play them then you wont understand where i and others are coming from.  This is all IMHO and i respect everyone opinions.  

 

AA is all kind of messed up, i have never said AA is OP too, its just wrongly distributed    I would have Cruisers stay the same (hard counter), lessen BB AA (its main target) and incress DD AA.  That will P*** all sort of BB players off (including my self by-the-way) but until you play CVs, you wont know what i mean.

 

WG is very fond of BBs so i know this will never happen.  Who knows, people might start working more as a team if they did 

 

IMHO

[avenger121]

Yeh... Cuz one set of numbers from one week of one tier (the tier which in CV's are pratically reserved for the top 1%) makes up enough data for a proper statistical analysis...

...

I think it's time to wake up and step down from your ivory tower...

 

You could have actually made the effort to check those numbers for yourself, but instead you chose to complain while ignoring that all other tiers show the same. But here just for you:

 

Latest available 2 month server stats for EU: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20161224/eu_2month/average_ship.html

From T10 to T7, although I dont really consider T8 and T7 high tier, but others do so I included them.

 

ship	Hakuryu	Midway	GK	Yamato	Montana	Minotaur	Zao	Moskva	Hindenburg	Des Moines
avg dpg	114k	98k	89k	91k	83k	75k	84k	79k	69k	69k

 

ship	Taiho	Essex	FdG	Izumo	Iowa	Neptune	Ibuki	Donskoi	Roon	Baltimore
avg dpg	92	80	64	60	60	60	49	52	47	38

 

ship	Shokaku	Lexington	Bismarck	Amagi	NC	Edinburgh	Mogami	Chapayev	Hipper	New Orleans
avg dpg	62	59	61	57	53	47	37	39	28	28

 

ship	Hiryu	Ranger	Gneisenau	Nagato	Colordao	Fiji	Myoko	Shchors	Yorck	Pepsicola
avg dpg	51	43	47	45	42	43	31	35	24	25

 

Even the Ranger which is considered trash is still no.4 at her tier and she is the only exception, all other CVs are apex predators at their tiers. Not talking about things like spotting, flexibility and survivability.

 

 

 

CVs need many things like a shít ton of bugfixes for the UI, here and there loadout reworks and a better economy. But clearly not performance buffs, especially not in the form of general AA nerfs.

[Redcap375]

 

I think 2 torp squdrons and 3 bomber squadrons is Japanese.  And that works out as basically one plane out of each squadron so 2 torpedo bombers, and 2-4 dive bombers.  I don't know what sort of percentage that is out of the striking force, but it's not exactly game ending losses for the carrier when it usually means that something on the opposing team dies, IMO.

 

Depends on Tier.  CV captains don't care about the amount of planes they lose altogether, its the planes they lose BEFORE they drop the torps/bombs.  And please tell me you Man Aim on the torps planes don't you first?? 6 planes, if your going off that, is a whole group and more (IJN). thats a wopping 3/4 of strking power gone, puff. From the horses mouth m8.

 

Personally, having played CV's I think the reason there are so few CV players is that the gameplay is mind numbingly boring and generally not fun, and people play the game for fun.  Personally I finished with the Ranger and then quietly sold the carrier and didn't buy the next CV.  Then again, towards the end I was just using the fighter lead-out and deliberately putting the opposing carrier out of the game by chasing off or shooting all of the aircraft down, followed by spotting DD's and bombing/burning alive anything isolated.

 

Ok then....You found it boring, fine m8 not a problem.

 

And on that subject, as a CV player I think that most carrier players are pretty poor in terms of skills.  Sure, most carriers have manual torpedo drops down to a fine art, but even at the highest level there is virtually no use (or understanding of) using fighter strafing to down big blobs of aircraft enmasse, as evidenced by big strafeable blobs of unescorted bombers going unchallenged.  I've strafed down big blobs like this with a single squadron and been accused of cheating, followed by a rage quit from the opposition carrier.

 

Ok then...Your right about poor players and there are ALOT of them.  Horses for courses. I'm complete pants at DD's!

 

And why do Tier X carriers just throw in 3 squadrons of bombers in a blob?  I'm hesitant to point out that if you use single squad of bombers on a manual drop and they hit repair, then a following torp attacks causes flooding damage.  Or if they don't repair on a single bombing squad then they take fire damage, then repair on the torpedoes to get rid of the flooding and give you another 2 opportunities to cause fires through bombing that they can't repair.

 

Can anyone that has played CVs, which apparently includes yourself m8, tell me/him why we do this? Something to do with.....AA maybe? I bet you didnt know this because you played AS in a Ranger??? Im not having a go as i did this when i first started  AS are dead .

 

That CV's do as well as they do despite absurdly poor levels of use of two thirds of their aircraft IMO puts how absurd carriers are into perspective, IMO.  And the complaints about AAA?  Seriously?  Carriers are not supposed to be able to singlehandedly wreck the opposition.

 

Poor players don't Man Aim.  Who in this room can avoid automatic torp drops? Don't even get back to me DD/CL captains  as i always know your answers.

 

[Gaunter_O_Dimm_]

 

So you suggest we should compare WR with other classes although CVs are mirrored MM wise, great suggestion. Next we should compare XP even though every ship ingame has a individual XP factor. What about kills or survival, oh wait CVs are leading again, so we are not allowed to use these since this doesnt fit your opinion.

 

Please stop polluting the forum.

 

 

 

How are my stats related to the discussion about CV balance? Please explain, or are you just trying to say my opinion is worthless because I am a bad player?! Here is the latest snapshot of my stats at warships.today: https://eu.warships.today/player/507353297/avenger121

 

Since you started the whole epeen contest, I am delighted to tell you, your opinion is absolute trash. I am purple overall and you are only blue, therefore you should stfu, you shítter. Git gud.

 

 

U dont even play CVs yet u say u totaly get their balace and their role in game, u can not understand CVs utill u play them, that is a fact, ask anyone who plays CVs. And the way u use statistics is extremely selective u pull up the point of their average damage  and completely ignore the statistics about how many players play each class .But u dont talk about those statistics because it doesnt fit your agenda. U claim CVs are soo OP so why dont u play dem, or for that fact if they are so OP why dont more people play(usually when something is OP people use it), if they were OP there would be twice as many CVs in queues than other classes(but wait those are Battleships every time). About the damage just know this that only the best and dye hard people still play CVs now and they can against all odds with this insane AA soup still get good resaults. I started playing ds game in November 2015 playing exclusively BBs and CVs so i understand the dinamics between these 2 classes completely, recently i started playing DDs because the fun factor in CVs dropped so drastically and i get bored playing only BBs. CVs were never OP(i am talking from when i started playing them from November 2015 forward), once i understood their gameplay and mechanics i never got dilited by a CV once, and after the AA buffs CVs never deal any damage aginst me anymore. I used to be scared of CVs back in the day now it is just eh whatever he cant kill me anyway(when u actually see some in game). The only unbalanced thing with CVs is their ability to permaspot DDs and u wont solve ds problem by giving BBs and CAs insane AA and screwing over CV economy!!!!!!!

 

The screen shots u linked to above them it says:Latest snapshots not available. Either the player has HIDDEN his or her statistics or connection to WG has failed". It is not the connection because i checked my own and some ither pople on the webside, so i dont trust those one bit. Show them on  the webside and only then i will trust your stats.

So everall i dont trust the stats u posted one bit and your understanding of CVs is trash.

[avenger121]

U dont even play CVs yet u say u totaly get their balace and their role in game, u can not understand CVs utill u play them, that is a fact, ask anyone who plays CVs. And the way u use statistics is extremely selective u pull up the point of their average damage  and completely ignore the statistics about how many players play each class .But u dont talk about those statistics because it doesnt fit your agenda. U claim CVs are soo OP so why dont u play dem, or for that fact if they are so OP why dont more people play(usually when something is OP people use it), if they were OP there would be twice as many CVs in queues than other classes(but wait those are Battleships every time). About the damage just know this that only the best and dye hard people still play CVs now and they can against all odds with this insane AA soup still get good resaults. I started playing ds game in November 2015 playing exclusively BBs and CVs so i understand the dinamics between these 2 classes completely, recently i started playing DDs because the fun factor in CVs dropped so drastically and i get bored playing only BBs. CVs were never OP(i am talking from when i started playing them from November 2015 forward), once i understood their gameplay and mechanics i never got dilited by a CV once, and after the AA buffs CVs never deal any damage aginst me anymore. I used to be scared of CVs back in the day now it is just eh whatever he cant kill me anyway(when u actually see some in game). The only unbalanced thing with CVs is their ability to permaspot DDs and u wont solve ds problem by giving BBs and CAs insane AA and screwing over CV economy!!!!!!!

 

The screen shots u linked to above them it says:Latest snapshots not available. Either the player has HIDDEN his or her statistics or connection to WG has failed". It is not the connection because i checked my own and some ither pople on the webside, so i dont trust those one bit. Show them on  the webside and only then i will trust your stats.

So everall i dont trust the stats u posted one bit and your understanding of CVs is trash.

 

Laughable. Please show me your magical tricks, especially this one "after the AA buffs CVs never deal any damage aginst me anymore".

 

Also you never played any T9 or T10 match in a ship that is not a CV, "u can not understand utill u play them".

 

Regarding my stats, I hid them a week ago, I simply dont like XVM mods. Therefore warships.today cant show you the latest numbers, but ofc you cant trust those numbers. I hacked WGs database and API last week, made my stats super good, then let warships.today save them and after that I reverted the changes in WG´s database again, so they will never find out.

[T_H_0_R]

I see nothing has changed. Avenger121's personal vendetta vs. CVs is still ragingly strong. Excellent example how to not understand stats and tailor them to your subjective hate vs. one class you don't want to see in the game in the first place. Because carriers use planes as means of the attack. That by definition makes them not ships I guess... Stop feeding the troll pls.

 

Yes AA is bad and CV interface is horrid. Blatantly obvious to anyone who ever played CVs.

[tajj7]

 but does everyone understand why there are so few CV players? 

 

Erm yeh, but it's not really anything to do with AA balance, the class is niche it will always be niche. It's an RTS game hidden in a game that is basically a first person combat game, sure some people like it, but most are not here to play an RTS and micro-manage AI.

 

I also don't really get what your overall point is, so a tier 8 CV struggles against an Iowa? And? Most tier 8s will struggle against an Iowa, aside maybe the very well performing and dominant BBs, where you chose the current clear best performing tier 8.  But a tier 8 cruiser will struggle just as much with an Iowa, if not worst than a CV, a CV is only losing planes, he's still in the game, he can pick on any target he likes with ease. The cruiser could get deleted in one look by an Iowa.

 

Clearly the tier 8 Japanese CV is performing fine by it's statistics. We also talking about an Iowa class Battleship, probably the Battleship in history with most AA ever, so much so that is basically became it's primary role to stick with the fast carriers and provide them AA cover. 

 

That is also the Iowa that aside for the Essex's WR (due to the mirror MM) is beaten in every single stat by the two tier 9 carriers, damage, XP, kills, survival, you name it the Iowa is inferior by a long margin in performance.  So take away the Iowas AA, you are nerfing a ship that is not performing that well. 

 

You've also said tier 10s are top of tree, well yeh, but a Yamato sees what a hakuryu sees, it sees some tier 10 ships and then some lower tiers, on average the Hakuryu does much better in the same situation. 

 

Is some BB AA probably too strong? Probably.

 

Is some CV balance a little off? Probably.

 

Is some mid tiers CVs maybe a little up? Maybe, but they can join the club with the Cruisers. 

 

But is high tier AA too strong? Not when the top damaging, top XP, top kills ships on tier 9 and 10 are, wait for it, CVs.

 

Does not compute. 

[avenger121]

 

Erm yeh, but it's not really anything to do with AA balance, the class is niche it will always be niche. It's an RTS game hidden in a game that is basically a first person combat game, sure some people like it, but most are not here to play an RTS and micro-manage AI.

..............

 

Mate are you even sure you are allowed to say that, I mean "Excellent example how to not understand stats and tailor them to your subjective hate vs. one class you don't want to see in the game in the first place."

 

CV player numbers are obviously so low because they are UP.

 

 

[T_H_0_R]

Note to self: do not feed the troll, do not feed the troll...

 

There we go. 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

If a MInotaur shot down 71 planes it is not his fault , it is CV that sent planes one by one another after another to the slaughter  .

 

MInotaur have good AA , but it is far from anything that would block good cv player from atacking it . In most cases good player will lose at most 25% of his planes during the atack and after it

 

 

CV absense is caused by several factor, yes greatly improved AA is one of them but we have insanely bad economy for cariers , terrible UI (20 years ago some very bad rts games had much better UI)

Well i not agree. Minotaur is no fly zone. Your strike force would be so decimatet that potential dmg to Minotaur would be minor. Yes you eould get 5 km dmg for 20 lost planed. It is just no go zone for cv. Passiv skills outplays you. 

[WingedHussar_Adler]

 

 

Latest available 1 week server stats for EU: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20161224/eu_week/average_ship.html

 

ship	Hakuryu	Midway	GK	Yamato	Montana	Minotaur	Zao	Moskva	Hindenburg	Des Moines
avg dpg	117,4k	94,3k	87,2k	90,8k	83,3k	72,3k	83,9k	80,6k	68,8k	68,8k

 

 

CV WEAK AND UNPLAYABLE ((((((((((((((((((

 

MUH CV META BACK WHEN??!11!!11!

Usa cv t9 and 10 has lowest winrate per tier. Accident? I do not think so. Dmg is nice. Winrate is better. 

 

Dds does lowest dmg but wins the game. Think about that

[avenger121]

Usa cv t9 and 10 has lowest winrate per tier. Accident? I do not think so. Dmg is nice. Winrate is better. 

 

Dds does lowest dmg but wins the game. Think about that

 

I will tell you now a magic secret that no one ever before has mentioned, especially not in this thread.

 

CVs have mirror MM. Therefore the WR only shows that the US CVs are far worse than the IJN ones.

 

Dont tell it anyone, especially not the commies, it must be kept secret, it took us years to figure it out.

[WingedHussar_Adler]

 

I will tell you now a magic secret that no one ever before has mentioned, especially not in this thread.

 

CVs have mirror MM. Therefore the WR only shows that the US CVs are far worse than the IJN ones.

 

Dont tell it anyone, especially not the commies, it must be kept secret, it took us years to figure it out.

Mirror mm? 

 

Not agree. It shows usa hightier cvs are worst ship in games

[159Hunter]

 

You could have actually made the effort to check those numbers for yourself, but instead you chose to complain while ignoring that all other tiers show the same. But here just for you:

 

Latest available 2 month server stats for EU: http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20161224/eu_2month/average_ship.html

From T10 to T7, although I dont really consider T8 and T7 high tier, but others do so I included them.

 

ship	Hakuryu	Midway	GK	Yamato	Montana	Minotaur	Zao	Moskva	Hindenburg	Des Moines
avg dpg	114k	98k	89k	91k	83k	75k	84k	79k	69k	69k

 

 

 

 

Even the Ranger which is considered trash is still no.4 at her tier and she is the only exception, all other CVs are apex predators at their tiers. Not talking about things like spotting, flexibility and survivability.

 

 

 

CVs need many things like a shít ton of bugfixes for the UI, here and there loadout reworks and a better economy. But clearly not performance buffs, especially not in the form of general AA nerfs.

 

Cool story bruh, now let's look at all the statistics for tier X for the last two weeks:

- battles played: only Z-52 does worse, midway 6200, hakuryu 7600 compared to shima 75k and yamato 69k battles, so obviously CVs are played so often cause they are OP,

- WR: Midway is bottom at 47 % Hak is second at 53 %, this shows the imbalance between the two CVs and also showds that damage ( your only number ) does not eaqual winning,

- XP: Midway is in the middle with just under 1600 , Hak is third from the bottom at about 1560, top two are yamato and minotaur, both just a fraction over 1700. So obviously the reward for damage is so big you gain massive xp,

- Both carriers lead massively in K/D ratio ( by a large margin ), logical: these aren't frontline ships, so less likely to sink,

- They lead on avg shipkills ( Hak 1.5, Mid 1.2 ) next two are minotaur and GK ( 1.1 and 1.0 ). So they are ahead, won't argue there. They seem to kill ships easier ( so why doesn't this translate in higher xp?),

- Plane kills they lead by a large margin ( so why doesn't this translate into a higher xp?),

- Survival rate is ofc a lot higher as well ( not a frontline ship)

 

 

So all in all they perform better in some areas and are abismal in other. Maybe next time have the intellectual honesty to post all stats.

 

 

PS: stop posting in CV topics as you've never ever played one, even tho you claim they are super OP. That must make you what? Super ******* for not playing these pwnzor ships?

[AUT_Znarf]

Planes should be untouchable at high tier

 

Battleships should get a Devastating strike every 30 seconds at high tier

 

RNG or skilled control should not be required, at high tier

 

after all, the newbies are there

 

and they need to have the easiest possible time while getting used to what they're doing

 

put the insane AA down to tier 4 instead, that makes way more sense