Is AA to strong on HT?

[Redcap375]

 

The coin clearly has 2 sides.

First, yeah a Minotaur sure has great AA, but maybe a CV is not the right ship to counter 100AA Rating ship? Same as other classes. A CV should not be able to sink every ship, there are certrain "I may just skip that dude over there, no chance for me"-occasions here. Do you attack a BB in a CA at any circumstances?

 

Second: When a Minotaur has shot down 71 ships he has done his job. And the CV made really big mistakes, see above.

 

I dont own a Minotaur, but I can tell from the Atlanta I love (maxed on AA, so AA Rating 79 which is great for Tier7):

In nowadays more popular CVs at midtier (due to missions) I got an average of 23 (!!!) shot down planes per game in my Atlanta during the Weekend, max was something at 50.

Some CV Captains doenst seem to get where NOT to go. They come to you over and over again or just dont care where their planes go on the way home. Easy prey.

I often see Tier5 or 6 CVs trying to kill me when I am toptier - *dont they check AA rating in the loading screen or know which ships not to take on?

 

And he's right. Tier 6 is by-the-way, the worst tier for CV players IMHO. If a CV captain manages to get past that then well done, see you in the cabin, 

*What a point and well presented.  That's when you can tell you are proper CV player.  

 

The gap between Good CV players and bad ones IS MASSIVE. Not gonna bore you with one story from yesterday but In a Nut shell....He was very very bad and at tier 9.

 

That handicaps the team more than another ship.

[tajj7]

 

How about non tier 10 CV's? Ever tried a tier 6 CV in a tier 8 game? You are literally the most useless ship in the entire game in that state.

 

From my experience having them in game, they really aren't.  I wouldn't have won a game the other day without our tier 6 CV being on the ball and supporting me because the two tier 8 BBs we had left were complete muppets, now I don't know how much damage he did, but he was like 2nd on XP on our team behind myself. 

 

He also does somewhat have a point, if tier 10 CVs are so capable of performing like that then it's a very tricky area to balance, I'd guess somewhat those numbers are inflated by quality player playing them being higher than your average ship but still, that's almost twice what some of the tier 10 Cruisers are doing. 

 

I mean also look at players like Flamu and Aerroon, both excellent players, good in multiple classes, both their top damage dealing ships on average are carriers. By quite a margin as well, for example Flamu averages over 30k more damage, with the Essex than the Zao, with a higher WR and over 200 games played in both.

 

Clearly there is fine balancing line here to stop CVs being OP because even in the current heavy AA of tier 10, players are capable of massive damage scores in CVs over all other classes even dominant BBs. 

 

 

[RDYSET]

Anyone who says you shouldn't hunt DD in a CV is not really thinking about how powerful and game changing DDs are. They should die first in every CV game if possible in my opinion. I watch  papedipupi when he streams and completely agree with his approach of nuke DDs first.

 

And yes, CV are probably the most skill and management intensive things I have tried in any game. Insane ramp up in skill levels are needed to play them well plus a comprehensive knowledge of every ship you face in order to approach it correctly. If people are capable of dealing with that skill level well they should be (and deserve to be) getting higher damage numbers than a Yamato.

 

There is a problem now in that the Moskva, Minotaur and ofc the Des Moines hard counter CVs to such an extent and over such a large area of map ... that it means you can't do much about it at all as the CV. If the MM gives one side those two or three of those boats and the players know to hold the map centre ... it sucks really hard as a CV player and gives an HUGE advantage to the other team. Which is all good... but some of those CA seem too OP in terms of AA right now.

[Corvi]

Only Minotaur and Des Moines have meaningful AA. All the other ships are perfectly bombable by T9+

[Corvi]

 

I Could have sworn you said 25%? 

 

You mean 75% right??  I can easily shoot down 25% of tier 10 planes in my Tier 6 Cleveland (Skill 81 AA) 

 

But your right about economy and AA...

 

 

I very much doubt that. My Moskva with 100+ AA rating and nearly 9km AA range shoots down 3, max 4 planes in an attack run with 5 squadrons that consist of 30+ planes. After that the AA is so crippled by divebombs that the next run is certain death.

[avenger121]

...............

And yes, CV are probably the most skill and management intensive things I have tried in any game. Insane ramp up in skill levels are needed to play them well plus a comprehensive knowledge of every ship you face in order to approach it correctly. If people are capable of dealing with that skill level well they should be (and deserve to be) getting higher damage numbers than a Yamato.

..............

 

You do realize that we are talking about average stats or dont you understand the meaning of average? It is not like you need any skill to deal more dmg than a Yamato in your Hakuryu.

[Redcap375]

Cant Quoute for some reason...

 

To the Above:

 

So my Cleveland with Defensive AA cant down 25% of tier 10 planes? Now to be honest, ive only div with a tier 9 match to have a laugh and trust me, i was downing more than 25% of tier 9 planes. Really didnt last long though 

 

So the tier 9 Bilitmore with Defensive AA isnt classed as meaningfull AA crusier? I take it youve not played in that ship.

The Neptune isnt a meaningfull AA crusier at tier 9? I take it youve not played in that ship either.

 

Now before you say it, nor have I.  But i HAVE flow over or ner these ships and its not pretty.

 

A tier 10 Moksva cant down tier 9 planes with, like you said, 100% AA? Your highest planes destory count is 37 aircraft?  Not bad for a none dedicated AA crusier like you said.

 

All due respect Corvi as i know youve played this game for sometime 

[Redcap375]

Look, i'm just pointing out that the AA is messed up..

 

I am completely cool with Cruisers being able to counter CVs and its the way it should be.  Its when CV captains are actively seeking out DDs to kill because other targets are getting increasingly harder to bomb.  I shouldn't be able to take down groups of planes in a Gne should I? that's just wrong isnt it?

 

You know what's funny gents.  The people who say AA is messed up are actually BB and Cruiser players.  The ones that say there isn't a problem haven't (like one on this thread) or have played little in CVs....I wonder why? I've played more games in cruisers than i have CVs! Why would i shoot myself in the foot?

 

Its called being impartial which is harder to do than it sounds, i do it for a living in the real word.

[True_Winterfeld]

It looks like I botched it. The topic wasnt about the Minotaur AA. Its about how AA in defense works in general. The more important part of my post is this:

 

My first thought was that the whole AA mechanic needs a rework so that both sides are satisfied. I would like to see after witnessing this, of course this is all theory and sadly I cant put it into test nor do I know if the following would be even possible with the current game engine, that the stronger the AA gets the more the accuracy of the DB/TB bombers suffers. Like dispersion works on guns at range. You could have the autodrop, with higher dispersion but lower possible loses on planes or the manel drop where you have more accuracy but you will lose more planes in a strike. So you have a choice as a CV skipper. Do I go for the auto, with less planes lost or do I go for the manuel with increased loses but less dispersion.

 

I honestly dont care in any way how many planes a certain ships downs in this game. My approach is for a more "fun" mechanic that satisfies both sides.

[ilhilh]

 

Poor you. I know it is hard when someone shatters your imaginary beliefs with simple numbers.

 

Assessing CVs by only comparing average damage stats Vs other classes is a too narrow and flawed viewpoint but you wade into loads of threads with stupidly biased arguments so I am not sure why I expected any different this time around.

[Corvi]

Cant Quoute for some reason...

 

To the Above:

 

So my Cleveland with Defensive AA cant down 25% of tier 10 planes? Now to be honest, ive only div with a tier 9 match to have a laugh and trust me, i was downing more than 25% of tier 9 planes. Really didnt last long though 

 

So the tier 9 Bilitmore with Defensive AA isnt classed as meaningfull AA crusier? I take it youve not played in that ship.

The Neptune isnt a meaningfull AA crusier at tier 9? I take it youve not played in that ship either.

 

Now before you say it, nor have I.  But i HAVE flow over or ner these ships and its not pretty.

 

A tier 10 Moksva cant down tier 9 planes with, like you said, 100% AA? Your highest planes destory count is 37 aircraft?  Not bad for a none dedicated AA crusier like you said.

 

All due respect Corvi as i know youve played this game for sometime 

 

Sure, if you get Shokakus that try to drop on your Moskva you can get those kind of plane kills. Otherwise its pretty impossible. Im confident bombing Montanas to pieces in my Essex as i know i will only lose a half a hand full of planes while i will put 60k dmg into him. Only ships i avoid is Des Moines and Minotaur, especially since most other cruisers chose hydro/radar instead of defensive AA as carriers are so rare.

[Gaunter_O_Dimm_]

 

You do realize that we are talking about average stats or dont you understand the meaning of average? It is not like you need any skill to deal more dmg than a Yamato in your Hakuryu.

 

You hide your stats and bigmouth on the forums about CVs, i bet u never play dem and got no understanding of CV play, so u just shuv statistics in everibodys face.

[tajj7]

Still though tier 9 and 10 CVs are pulling some pretty impressive numbers despite the supposed 'too strong AA'. 

 

According to Warhips today, Hakuryu and Midway are by far the highest damage dealers on tier 10, some 10-12k damage on average above the next best.  More than twice the damage of what most DDs are pulling and a good 25-30k over the Cruisers.

 

In WR terms, Hakuryu is 3rd overall, but really it's 2nd because the Z-52 will clearly drop as more players get it and they are of a less ability. The Midway is lower, at 9th for WR, but still above 50% and is actually the best performing US ship on win rate at tier 10.

 

Both top average XP.

 

Both top KD

 

Both top average kills

 

Both top survival rate (obviously).

 

Aside from the Midway's WR they are clearly the best performing ships on tier 10.

 

On tier 9 it's pretty similar though the Essex's WR is the worst (is this mirror matching?) but the Taiho is right up there in every stat pretty much with only the Missouri and the Z-46 at all competing (and they are outliers).

 

Tier 8 they are less powerful. The Shokaku is still performing well but does not top the damage charts or the XP. 

 

The logical conclusion to me would be no, high tier AA is not too strong and that Japanese to US CV balance is a little off. 

 

(BTW US ships seems to be under performing a lot at tiers 8 - 10). 

[cro_pwr]

So, Moskva doesn't have good AA?

Jesus, things that you can read on this forum...

[avenger121]

 

Assessing CVs by only comparing average damage stats Vs other classes is a too narrow and flawed viewpoint but you wade into loads of threads with stupidly biased arguments so I am not sure why I expected any different this time around.

 

So you suggest we should compare WR with other classes although CVs are mirrored MM wise, great suggestion. Next we should compare XP even though every ship ingame has a individual XP factor. What about kills or survival, oh wait CVs are leading again, so we are not allowed to use these since this doesnt fit your opinion.

 

[edited]

 

[edited]

[Redcap375]

Still though tier 9 and 10 CVs are pulling some pretty impressive numbers despite the supposed 'too strong AA'. 

 

According to Warhips today, Hakuryu and Midway are by far the highest damage dealers on tier 10, some 10-12k damage on average above the next best.  More than twice the damage of what most DDs are pulling and a good 25-30k over the Cruisers.

 

In WR terms, Hakuryu is 3rd overall, but really it's 2nd because the Z-52 will clearly drop as more players get it and they are of a less ability. The Midway is lower, at 9th for WR, but still above 50% and is actually the best performing US ship on win rate at tier 10.

 

Both top average XP.

 

Both top KD

 

Both top average kills

 

Both top survival rate (obviously).

 

Aside from the Midway's WR they are clearly the best performing ships on tier 10.

 

On tier 9 it's pretty similar though the Essex's WR is the worst (is this mirror matching?) but the Taiho is right up there in every stat pretty much with only the Missouri and the Z-46 at all competing (and they are outliers).

 

Tier 8 they are less powerful. The Shokaku is still performing well but does not top the damage charts or the XP. 

 

The logical conclusion to me would be no, high tier AA is not too strong and that Japanese to US CV balance is a little off. 

 

(BTW US ships seems to be under performing a lot at tiers 8 - 10). 

 

Getting too old for this. Look...

 

Tajj7, with the greatest respect, have you ever played in a CV?

 

Have you ever been in a tier 8 battle in a tier 6 CV?

Have you ever been in a tier 10 battle in a tier 8 CV?

Have you ever been in a tier 10 Battle in a tier 9 CV?

 

or even easier:

 

Have you ever been in a tier 8 battle in a tier 8 CV?

Have you ever been in a tier 9 battle in a tier 9 CV?

Have you ever been in a tier 10 battle in a tier 10 CV?

 

I know that every ship gets up tiered, especially at tier 8 (worst mm IMHO) but when a Bismarck could have a bloody good go against a Iowa, A Shu with 2 groups of torps would really struggle against an Iowa. You would lose all of your planes doing it . Its hard against a NC, never mind a Iowa a tier above! 

 

All i can say is try the line m8.  tier 6-10. Then, if you still think the same then alright we have something to go off.  Try spotting a simple DD (Gearing) in a tier 8-9 IJN CV? sounds simple right, being a DD and all that.

 

WR? What does WR mean to a player on an individual/ship basis?  As we all know, WR  means very little. Your win rate is lower then 50%? Does that make you a bad player or the ship that you sail bad? The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.  You can have the most OP ship afloat but if you have a muppet team behind you, you will lose. We have all got kracken and still lost the game.

 

There has to be one ship class that is going to be at the top of the food chain like anything in nature, right?  Would it be fair to say that a CV would be up there? considering it was designed to sink LARGE Ships. A job that made the rest of the Fleet, including BBs redundant for the future?  Thats why there is only 1 CV at high tiers . Tier 10 ships are always going to rule over lesser tier ships, simple right.  Its the same for CV's? Those stats include CVs that meet lower tiers right and i the right hands, like a good CV player, it can be deadly.

 

Who should win a 1 vs 1 against a BB?

 

1) A CV

2) A BB

 

People who say BBs is the problem why the AA is so messed up.  You work together and you will beat a CV, hands down.  2 NC will see to that, 2 Clevelands will see to that, 2 Gne wil see to that and thats how it should be.  But alas, its not the case.  

 

 

[Freyr_A2]

The Neptune isnt a meaningfull AA crusier at tier 9? I take it youve not played in that ship either.

 

 

 

Now before you say it, nor have I.  But i HAVE flow over or ner these ships and its not pretty.

 

I'm playing a Neptune at the moment, so a view from the other side of the coin.

 

My primary battery of 6" guns also double as AAA, in addition to my secondary battery of 4" guns.  That gives me a relatively impressive long range punch of something like 200 DPS.  I also have a battery of mid range RADAR pointed STAAG (upgraded Bofors) which do about 300 DPS, as well as the 20MM guns which do relatively so little damage at such a short range that you might as well just ignore them entirely (<50 DPS IIRC?)

 

 

The only time where I have stacked up significant numbers of aircraft kills is when I deliberately sailed to a point where a Tier X carrier was going for a strike on our carrier.  His aircraft flew past me at about 3KM so through both my long and mid AAA window, into and out of the carriers AAA in doing his strike, followed by flying back through my AAA window on the way back.  Did I stack up kills, yes.  Did I kill everything?  No.

 

This said, I have the "fire 10% faster" upgrade for the main battery instead of the "do 25% more AA damage" upgrade, but I don't think that's significant.  From my experience, if a carrier decides to take me out when I'm alone then my AAA won't get more than a few (ie, 4-6) kills before I get torpedoed from absurdly and unavoidably close torp drops, despite having better acceleration and turning ability than some destroyers.

 

Faced with a carrier who has had enough of me, I have to run away and hide in somebody elses AAA umbrella to stand any hope of survival.  Preferably another cruiser which actually has the defensive fire AAA consumable, which I don't have, and desperately miss as a ship which operates best doing my own thing as formation keeping with slower ships with longer range is a bit idiotic as I don't actually get in range to machine gun my little pea shooters at the opposition.

 

 

 

 

The only time I can see I am a threat to carriers is when I am unspotted, and only get spotted by aircraft when an aircraft attack is launched on something else which I am supporting which then gets decimated by the combined AAA fire of two ships

 

So when people come out with "AAA is to strong" I'd suggest that your not likely to get much in the way of sympathy from myself, or most other cruiser players.  I feel more like a punching bag for carriers than a threat to them, or their aircraft.

[avenger121]

 

Look, i'm just pointing out that the AA is messed up..

 

..............

 

By what standards is AA messed up?

 

Is AA messed up because it is unrealistic? Well, I have bad news for you.

Is AA messed up because AA is too strong and CVs are weak? Well, there are even worse news for you.

[Redcap375]

 

I'm playing a Neptune at the moment, so a view from the other side of the coin.

 

My primary battery of 6" guns also double as AAA, in addition to my secondary battery of 4" guns.  That gives me a relatively impressive long range punch of something like 200 DPS.  I also have a battery of mid range RADAR pointed STAAG (upgraded Bofors) which do about 300 DPS, as well as the 20MM guns which do relatively so little damage at such a short range that you might as well just ignore them entirely (<50 DPS IIRC?)

 

 

The only time where I have stacked up significant numbers of aircraft kills is when I deliberately sailed to a point where a Tier X carrier was going for a strike on our carrier.  His aircraft flew past me at about 3KM so through both my long and mid AAA window, into and out of the carriers AAA in doing his strike, followed by flying back through my AAA window on the way back.  Did I stack up kills, yes.  Did I kill everything?  No.

 

This said, I have the "fire 10% faster" upgrade for the main battery instead of the "do 25% more AA damage" upgrade, but I don't think that's significant.  From my experience, if a carrier decides to take me out when I'm alone then my AAA won't get more than a few (ie, 4-6) kills before I get torpedoed from absurdly and unavoidably close torp drops, despite having better acceleration and turning ability than some destroyers.

 

Faced with a carrier who has had enough of me, I have to run away and hide in somebody elses AAA umbrella to stand any hope of survival.  Preferably another cruiser which actually has the defensive fire AAA consumable, which I don't have, and desperately miss as a ship which operates best doing my own thing as formation keeping with slower ships with longer range is a bit idiotic as I don't actually get in range to machine gun my little pea shooters at the opposition.

 

 

 

 

The only time I can see I am a threat to carriers is when I am unspotted, and only get spotted by aircraft when an aircraft attack is launched on something else which I am supporting which then gets decimated by the combined AAA fire of two ships

 

So when people come out with "AAA is to strong" I'd suggest that your not likely to get much in the way of sympathy from myself, or most other cruiser players.  I feel more like a punching bag for carriers than a threat to them, or their aircraft.

 

Tier 10 CV right...Probably US? No doubt its the hardest of all planes in the whole game to down and your a tier 9, that at tier 9 cruiser? I would hope it would be a little harder to down the planes a tier below.  Still tho, 6 US tier 10 torp planes isnt bad is it.  That's ALOT of the CV fire-power gone just like that, puff  Also means that if he sends a group of planes one by one, you will technically destroy them peice-meal right? 

 

What about a tier 9 IJN CV? Or a tier 8 IJN CV? Or even if the mm gods are against you (we have all been there ) ,a tier 7 IJN CV with tier 6 plane (Hiryu)?

 

Look chaps, i'm not against cruisers being Plane killers you know that, but does everyone understand why there are so few CV players? Apart from mission times when its forced upon them. Its because of the messed up AA and lack of experience XP.

[Redcap375]

 

 

By what standards is AA messed up?

 

Is AA messed up because it is unrealistic? Well, I have bad news for you.

Is AA messed up because AA is too strong and CVs are weak? Well, there are even worse news for you.

 

In one ear and out the other. If you haven't got it by now, you never will lad. I'm not even going to entertain you  

[Siekam]

 

Poor you. I know it is hard when someone shatters your imaginary beliefs with simple numbers.

 

Yeh... Cuz one set of numbers from one week of one tier (the tier which in CV's are pratically reserved for the top 1%) makes up enough data for a proper statistical analysis...

...

I think it's time to wake up and step down from your ivory tower...

[RAYvenMP]

 

Poor you. I know it is hard when someone shatters your imaginary beliefs with simple numbers.

 

Simple numbers are also that CV doing the same damage as BB/CA/DD will get 50% less XP and credits...but who would care about that in the F2P grind based game right?

[avenger121]

In one ear and out the other. If you haven't got it by now, you never will lad. I'm not even going to entertain you  

 

You mean you have no real arguments besides your subjective opinion which mainly seems to consists of whining when getting uptiered in your CV.

[allufewig]

Tbh I still see Taihos and Hakuryus wreck stuff left and right and generally have an absolute immense Impact on the battle. An assesment thats pretty much proven by stats. I regularly see midtier CVs struggle, but those two high Tier IJN CVs are still the apex-predators of their respective tiers. Bombing even AA heavy targets like an Iowa is not a big problem unless theres another source of heavy AA nearby.

 

Interface may be shitty, economy may be off, inter-class Balance (f.e. Essex <-> Taiho) looks bad etc. I give you all that. But AA too strong? On hightier? I completely fail too see that, just like I fail to see the "fires too strong", "torpedoes too strong" etc.

 

In fact that AA complaints sound just like the usual whinery that we usually attribute to the BBabies.

[Redcap375]

Don't go there with him lads, he's the pub drunk as we would say