bastion - constructive criticism instead of bashing

[St4n]

1. I don't play bastion, because I don't play tier X.

2. I read a lot of complaints about it.

 

So I have some toughts about it. Most people complain about the campfest that bastion is forcing onto the players.

There are 2 simple reasons for that:

- their sphere of influence is restricted to beeing close to them, not beeing close means not getting into their sphere, staying close to your own means enemy needs to enter yours

- it's not an attack and defend mode where one team is forced to attack

Both together lead to campfests, because you lose your advantages if you attack and noone is forced to attack.

 

So at least one of that has to change.

 

Sphere of influence

Instead of having a restricted sphere of influence with strong force, have a non restriced (e.g. whole map cover) with light force. Instead of forts with cannons, how about a small airfield who launches a squad of planes randomly attacking an enemy ship? They can get shot down and don't do that much damage, but they can reach every part of the map. Reason for staying away from the airfield? None other than the enemy team trying not to lose that point. The same goes for the owner of the point. No reason to camp it since you don't have more protection there than anywhere other on the map. Maybe some launch fighters who counter enemy bombers? Taking such a point would be a very strategic option. (But again, they don't do circles arround their airfield, but go fly to a random enemy squad as to not creat another restricted sphere of influence.)

You don't have to do it with only planes.

How about a submarine bunker? It launches a submarine, that travels the map and spots enemies close by. It can't get spotted by the enemy and will not attack. Now you have an unrestricted lookout option. No reason to stay away from that point anymore, since the actual u-boot could be anywhere on the map. Maybe just some passive buffs for the whole team, like less chance to get fires started.

You get the point. If effects are effecting the whole map the reason to camp at your own points is destroyed. Attacking and defending is now equally effective and therefore viable.

 

Attack and defend

The easier solution would be to just declare one team attacker which automatically losses if it just camps. For example forts start out capped by the defender and after the enemy conquers or destroy them they don't work anymore for the rest of the game. This would create the opportunity to destroy them from afar and force the defender to go out defending them leading to a range play. But offcourse that needs carefull balance as to not give one team too much of an advantage.

[tajj7]

Just get rid of it, no one likes it, it's extremely punishing as well on DDs and Cruisers that rely on stealth because they basically don't want to go near the caps, and even if you own a cap and the surveillance station is up, BBs still mainly just camp even though they are basically getting free radar. 

 

So once the areas are capped, basically no one then wants to go near them, cos they'll get spotted and wrecked. 

[ThePurpleSmurf]

You know there is something very VERY wrong with a game mode if a passive Fort has the most kills in a battle and can score an imaginary kraken (check YT, there are several vidoes and i believe even Flamu has one up with 4 kills by a Fort). You can tweak and tinker on bastion mode as much as you want, it will remain a stupid game mode and i know of nobody who would complain if WG would just remove it entirely.

[Phlogistoned]

@OP: I like your suggestions. You're clearly thinking about it in terms of game design rather than (only) from a player perspective.

 

However, judging by the answers you got, I fear the term 'Bastion' may be forever tainted. If you tried forwarding your ideas under a different name, you might get a better reception.

[FaceFisted]

I am one of those people who actually like this mode? It is more challenging to play, but that's the point and I like it because of it. I don't have any problems with this mode in any ship type because it is so easy to counter forts effects.

 

As a DD you can actually take forts when they are active. Just rush them and camp just in front of them. Forts guns will constantly shoot over you and in turn ignore all other ships.

As a cruiser - your AP may not pen forts walls, but you can use HE to set it on fire. Apply that DOT and burn it down.

As a BB - use AP on fort's walls, just below guns. Think of it as a forts citadel. You can completely disable fort in 2 volleys. Just don't aim for the top.

 

Lookouts - just use HE to disable them. If you do that, forts will be blind and will not shoot. If you are a BB, just direct your secondary guns on lookouts when you are in range.

 

Why is it so hard to use a brain? Maybe because it is easier to complain?

 

As I see, players are almost always completely ignoring these forts. They sail past them, forts shoot on them and... they do nothing. Most just take hits like idiots and don't shoot back. Then they complain how this mode is hard to play. Really people... W T F!

[PuchForLife]

In its first irrationele the forts where mutch easyer to tak out my Hindi could easely get 30/40k vollys on em. Last patch the changed somthing and now i cant get more than 5.9 k vollys with ap. They should change is back because now the forts are far to healthy as even a bb get only one citpen damage out of a volly

[MercFHire]

Burn in hell Bastion.  And take your firend Failcentre with you. (Epicentre isn't that bad)

Bastion is usually decided by the team that caps 2 first, then it turns into a camp fest and both team are pissed off since the game ends in less that 10 minutes with neither team getting that much XP.

[OopsIPennedYouAgain]

I am one of those people who actually like this mode? It is more challenging to play, but that's the point and I like it because of it. I don't have any problems with this mode in any ship type because it is so easy to counter forts effects.

 

As a DD you can actually take forts when they are active. Just rush them and camp just in front of them. Forts guns will constantly shoot over you and in turn ignore all other ships.

As a cruiser - your AP may not pen forts walls, but you can use HE to set it on fire. Apply that DOT and burn it down.

As a BB - use AP on fort's walls, just below guns. Think of it as a forts citadel. You can completely disable fort in 2 volleys. Just don't aim for the top.

 

Lookouts - just use HE to disable them. If you do that, forts will be blind and will not shoot. If you are a BB, just direct your secondary guns on lookouts when you are in range.

 

Why is it so hard to use a brain? Maybe because it is easier to complain?

 

As I see, players are almost always completely ignoring these forts. They sail past them, forts shoot on them and... they do nothing. Most just take hits like idiots and don't shoot back. Then they complain how this mode is hard to play. Really people... W T F!

yes you are.

in the current implementation this gamemode is straight up bad and nearly unplayable.

An AI should never have so much impact in a pvp game

[Venom_Too]

If it would be something new, i would like it. But its just an Domination Map with guns, which just annoy  a lot if you wanna cap...

 

Why not (just a  thought): A harbor with these Forts and one Team with lower amount of ships which should defend the harbor. The enemy team should attack the harbor and besiege it.

Attacking Team for example has 14 Ships and the defending Team has 10... Just to throw some numbers in for the example.

Just an Idea...

[piritskenyer]

Just get rid of it, no one likes it, it's extremely punishing as well on DDs and Cruisers that rely on stealth because they basically don't want to go near the caps, and even if you own a cap and the surveillance station is up, BBs still mainly just camp even though they are basically getting free radar. 

 

So once the areas are capped, basically no one then wants to go near them, cos they'll get spotted and wrecked. 

 

I actually do like it. Not always, because sometimes teams are just hopeless, but I really like the concept.

[KaraMon]

 

 

As I see, players are almost always completely ignoring these forts. They sail past them, forts shoot on them and... they do nothing. Most just take hits like idiots and don't shoot back. Then they complain how this mode is hard to play. Really people... W T F!

 

This is mode that requires a bit of a brain , and teamplay.

 

In this game there is nothing like a teamplay and a brain is hard to find in most of the players . You expect "highly advanced skilled gameplay" from players that have problems understanding what is minimap, WASD , hydro/radar is called hax by them and they report high teir cv who used "alt" as hackers

 

Lets face it , this mode is too complex for average potato playing this game , that is why it is bad because thanks to strong AI it is very hard to solo carry which is mostly done by players that learned at least some basics about game mechanics

 

In the end victory is decided by random factors rather by players and this is what piss off most people

[Cosseria]

Get rid of it, period. It doesn't matter if you have Fort Drum with its 14 inch rifles in armored turrets or just a wizard hidden into the jungle sending voodoos to the enemy team, there's an additional RNG influence which shouldn't be there in PvP.

[FaceFisted]

yes you are.

in the current implementation this gamemode is straight up bad and nearly unplayable.

An AI should never have so much impact in a pvp game

 

Ah lol, I laugh every time I see your nickname haha I gave you +1 in game, I liked your post now

 

On a more serious note, there are players that like this. Being very vocal on how some of you dislike bastion, won't make any difference. You just have to adapt your strategies, at least players in Omni have a sense of strategy and teamplay, or at least Flamu have it for sure. These forts are such an advantage to those who cap them, it would make sense to use that fact. This is the reason why I charge directly empty cap with fort at the start of the match, no matter what ship I'm using. When you cap it, you get additional defense and higher chance to keep it.

 

But... it's easier to play in squads that slowly kite enemy players than to actually play aggressively. Forts negate that strategy you use for randoms. I understand you

[tajj7]

 

I actually do like it. Not always, because sometimes teams are just hopeless, but I really like the concept.

 

Fine, MOST people don't like it.

 

As many have said above having an AI so heavily influence a PvP is pure stupidity, this game mode basically just highlights the imbalances of game even further.

 

I also have to like the guy that says just park  in front of a fort in a DD and shoot it, yeh that's a sound strategy and not asking to get obliterated by other ships.

 

The whole game mode is fundamentally flawed because it basically says, go sit a cap circle and get a numbers advantage (because you then get AI forts and Radar on your side), which when happens, enemies quite rightly go, well I'm not going near that because I get spotted, I get shot by forts, I get shot by enemy ships.

 

it's illogical, to win the game you need to get caps back, but to get a cap back you have to go into a terrible engagement. Most games I see, whoever caps first wins and it's pretty obvious why, you get a cap you can just camp off it and if anyone ventures in there you basically have you shooting at them, then you have the equivalent of like 2 Bismarcks with secondarys shooting them and an always on radar, so unless you have a big numbers advantage (and it's unlikely you will) it's suicide.

 

I cannot blame anyone who does not bother going near the cap once it's captured, unless there are basically no enemies near it, you are best leaving it well alone. 

 

Teams should have to work for advantageous engagements, flanking, good positioning, good teamplay, but this game mode basically goes here get the cap first, win the game. 

[FaceFisted]

 

I also have to like the guy that says just park  in front of a fort in a DD and shoot it, yeh that's a sound strategy and not asking to get obliterated by other ships.

 

That would be such a herp derrrrrrp lol + you forgot to mention torps as well - "FIRE EVERYTHING!"

 

 

Well, use some common sense man Would you cap anything while enemies see you?

 

+ you don't have to shoot it, I never wrote it. Capping is enough.

[tajj7]

 Would you cap anything while enemies see you?

 

 

That's kind of the point isn't, they will see you.  So the likelihood of you capping a point, whilst avoiding the forts AND there being nothing on then enemy team to shoot at you is pretty low.

 

If that situation happens, you are probably capping late game when there are barely an enemy left so you've either already won or lost and it;s rather pointless. 

 

DDs (and other ships) capping flags whilst stealthed is exactly what (should) encourage teams to stop camping, they have to close in to the caps, force the capper out and recap, but you don't need to do that on Bastion, the AI do it all for you and you can just happily camp off the flag and laugh at the poor DD trying to cap as he gets lit up and shot at by you AND the AI. Of course in standard domination bad teams do basically ignore the caps and rush themselves to fast lost because they put no pressure on the cap points and don't support their ships who try to decap and recap, but Bastion basically rewards that gameplay, once the point is capped, you can camp to your heart's content because the cap point protects itself.

 

It's basically a game mode that rewards camping and long range sniping, the reason we have cap based modes is to encourage teams not to do that, but Bastion does the opposite after the first cap. 

 

That is also why a defence v attack mode won't really work, defending is much much easier, you basically camp, it requires less teamwork and strategy. So you'll see for example in WOTs most Assault mode maps the defenders will have a higher WR because defending is much simpler. Plus you'll see in games like BF1 for example where it's attack v defence they will give the attack team more resources, so more respawns, more vehicles etc. but here you are talking about giving the resources (forts and caps) to the defending team, I think that combo would just lead to 60% WRs for the defending team.

 

 

[Cosseria]

So, since constructive criticism was needed:

- Get rid of surveillance stations. Forts can only fire on ships detected by other ships or planes.

- Drastically decrease forts' accuracy and dmg output.

- Mirror MM for DDs, a true mirror: if there's an Udaloy in team 1, there needs to be one in team 2. DDs are the ships deciding the outcome in this mode, and pitting a Kagero against a Fletcher isn't funny.

[RobS80]

Played a game in Bastion yesterday in Zao. We had 2 DDs without CE. They had 2 DDs with CE. We lost our DDs within 2 minutes. Our team from the south pushed into cap 3. We won cap 3. I lead a charge towards 2, everybody refused to follow 'cos of the OP ports man' including a Yamato and GK.....

 

I suggested we all focus suppress the fort while I detered the enemy teams 4 BBs and cruiser from defending the cap. Several fires on each BB later and they are fleeing. We won the cap, pushed to 1 and won the game with only an enemy Yamato left alive.

 

My concern was that apparently 4-5 BBs and 3 CA's of tiers 9 & 10 didnt know the fort can be supressed...

[FaceFisted]

 

That's kind of the point isn't, they will see you.  So the likelihood of you capping a point, whilst avoiding the forts AND there being nothing on then enemy team to shoot at you is pretty low.

 

If that situation happens, you are probably capping late game when there are barely an enemy left so you've either already won or lost and it;s rather pointless. 

 

DDs (and other ships) capping flags whilst stealthed is exactly what (should) encourage teams to stop camping, they have to close in to the caps, force the capper out and recap, but you don't need to do that on Bastion, the AI do it all for you and you can just happily camp off the flag and laugh at the poor DD trying to cap as he gets lit up and shot at by you AND the AI. Of course in standard domination bad teams do basically ignore the caps and rush themselves to fast lost because they put no pressure on the cap points and don't support their ships who try to decap and recap, but Bastion basically rewards that gameplay, once the point is capped, you can camp to your heart's content because the cap point protects itself.

 

It's basically a game mode that rewards camping and long range sniping, the reason we have cap based modes is to encourage teams not to do that, but Bastion does the opposite after the first cap. 

 

That is also why a defence v attack mode won't really work, defending is much much easier, you basically camp, it requires less teamwork and strategy. So you'll see for example in WOTs most Assault mode maps the defenders will have a higher WR because defending is much simpler. Plus you'll see in games like BF1 for example where it's attack v defence they will give the attack team more resources, so more respawns, more vehicles etc. but here you are talking about giving the resources (forts and caps) to the defending team, I think that combo would just lead to 60% WRs for the defending team.

 

 

 

Good points, but I think that game should be like that.

 

If someone is afraid to rush and fight for a fort, that one really deserves to lose. This game mode is supposed to be completely "anti camping" where fleets actively fight over a point because penalties for not owning a fort are great, but... players are used to camp and if something disturbs that kind of play, they immediately start to bash that game mode. Plus, as RobS80 said - players still don't have a clue that they can suppress a fort. So, do we really have to give in to those players that refuse to think and play as a team? I don't think so. Just remember what happened in WOT... because of crybabies WG nerfed everything and turned that game into a World of Catapults.

 

Face it, without something new in PVP modes, this game would become boring very fast. We already see slowing down of high tier game. Almost everyone is afraid to take damage because of high repair bills, so they camp... and camp... and camp...

[Slezman]

crap stealing from 1/3 to 1/2 of HP before you meet real enemy does not deserve constructive criticism, it must be annihilated immediately !

 

[Corvi]

Since im probably the only one who likes Bastion, some suggestions from me too.

 

Its range needs to be reduced by about 30% and dispersion on higher ranges increased. Right now its too accurate, before the buff it was useless. Something in between would be nice. Also, cut ROF in half. Survailance Towers need spotting range reduced too. Next thing, make the Airfields a bastion for the northern cap. If you cap it, random planes will start every minute or so like fighters that engage enemy planes in a radius or bombers that drop bombs. That way it would be more a mix and not just a boring fort.

 

Otherwise i think the gamemode is pretty fine, a lot of players dont really knwo what to do and underestiamte the forts a lot, that makes for some chaos gameplay. But imo that can be tuned and it can end up a nice diverse gamemode.

[FaceFisted]

You park this close and fort can't hit you.

 

[jure_eruj]

players still don't have a clue that they can suppress a fort.

 

Sure, i will fight  damn fort when half of enemy armada is shooting at me.

[Capra76]

Since im probably the only one who likes Bastion, some suggestions from me too.

 

What is it you like about Bastion that you don't get out of the normal domination mode?  What does adding AI forts and spotting stations bring to the game?

[FaceFisted]

 

Sure, i will fight  damn fort when half of enemy armada is shooting at me.

 

Choose your priorities. I was thinking about players who have no idea that they can suppress those AI forts.

 

I agree with Corvi. Forts need a small nerf and all will be fine.