Give Scharnhorst the Cruiser accuracy or alpha it deserves.

[Cpt_Mooney]

The thing is, she only works well when you get to slaughter t5 seals.

Against enemies who know about what her traits are and adapt accordingly, shes performing really poorly.

BBs with the exception of waterslugs(i.e. US BBs below T8) will just show you their tail, cruisers will keep you at 14 while presenting a low profile and destoyers

are a complete game of RNG with those terribly innacurate guns to begin with.

Sure its great fun to ponder away at "below average" players, that just see a BB icon and think nothing of it, but as soon as your target shows some common sense

and knowledge, the problems with this ship become apparent.

Trust me, being only useful for getting rid of the potatoes gets old really fast...

 

And its not like MM would often do you the favor of not having you fight tier8 and 9s atm.

t5 is allmost dead due to awful matchmaking, and so you usually dont get to play ina scenario where the ship, as it is right now, works satisfactory.

At those tiers YOU are the slow guy, and you cannot dictate conditions or range at all.

[Seinta]

The thing is, she only works well when you get to slaughter t5 seals.

Against enemies who know about what her traits are and adapt accordingly, shes performing really poorly.

BBs with the exception of waterslugs(i.e. US BBs below T8) will just show you their tail, cruisers will keep you at 14 while presenting a low profile and destoyers

are a complete game of RNG with those terribly innacurate guns to begin with.

Sure its great fun to ponder away at "below average" players, that just see a BB icon and think nothing of it, but as soon as your target shows some common sense

and knowledge, the problems with this ship become apparent.

Trust me, being only useful for getting rid of the potatoes gets old really fast...

 

And its not like MM would often do you the favor of not having you fight tier8 and 9s atm.

t5 is allmost dead due to awful matchmaking, and so you usually dont get to play ina scenario where the ship, as it is right now, works satisfactory.

At those tiers YOU are the slow guy, and you cannot dictate conditions or range at all.

 

​

Play smart and you will be more than a potato cooker.

[Jadefalken]

Looking at its armament, its obviously got simmilar guns, as  those to be found on the Graf Spee, only with a ~10% AP nerf.

Now, i can see how perfect aim and "high" alpha would result in balancing issues, but two nerfes at the same time is just overdue.

The accuracy is just abysmal, and judging from replay-videos released by people like Notser, its not me causing this issue.

Basically your guns wont leave more than a scratch in the paint on anythiing that hasnt tier 5 written on it(which became allmost non

existant due to the horrible matchmaking at that tier), and to add punishment to insult, they disperse so horrendeously that you can consider

yourselff blessed by RNG if you hit with more than 1 or 2 of those potential 9 shells to begin with.

Now, the argument was made that its needed due to the extra torpedoes, but oddly enough none of the other 2 german BBs featuring torps

have gotten any of theese "supposedly" nessesary nerfs.

 

After having like 5 dozend matches in her, i come to the conclusion that its not ina good spot atm.

The dispersion is just overdue. Its Cruiser like guns allready do less damage than their supposed to, so a second nerf on top of that, kiills its

capability to be viably in the tier 8 and even 9 matches you end up most of the time atm.

IMO it overperformed during testing, bc people did dumb things like brawling it(as is even seen in the frequently brought up "how tp scharn" video).

Atm, im lesss affraid of the Scharn when playing in a cruiser, than even of the tier6 BBs, just point your bow at it, and spam HE from 14-15k away.

It wont be able to either reliably hit you to cause a significant ammount of fires, nor penetrate the armor of an angled cruiser of the same tier.

 

In summary, great potential to be a truly fun premium worth the money, in reality overanxiety by the testers, and the nerfnuke(where a slight hit with

the bat wouldve been totally sufficient) following the critisism, turned it into a really lackluster expirience.

And again, its not just me, judging from the video footage found, from even 1ina100 matches, its unreal dispersion combined with the really high

damage mitigation caused by its low caliber, turns it borderline useless outside of a brawl.

Looking at its free counterpart(which is really better in any regard except DPM, which again is not even the case due to the caliber), one has to wonder

why its even a premium to begin with...

"Fun gameplay" when facing opponents you cant fight back? Not really all that useful im affraid.

 

 

You for real???? The Scharnhorst is borderline OPED! If you cannot play it your way.... Play it how she wants to play... aka not hugging a border.. flanking and getting close to rip other ships a new one!

[Cpt_Mooney]

Play smart and you will be more than a potato cooker.

Ina game against competent opponents your not even able to reliably spam HE at them, once you fight someone who knows how she performes best, your basically completely defanged.

Which is not the case for ANY BB past the initial really really terrible tiers, and certainly should not be the case in t7.

 

No idea how people get the impression i would try to play Kongo with her, thats simply not the case...

Ive stated this before, not every complaint arises out of incompetence of the captain.

I more often than not cramp up 100+k damage in her, but thats allso true for the Myoko for instance.

Being sucessful doesent automatically equal something being well balanced.

The promise was Scharnhorst to be a very flexible ship, while in (game)reality its the most rigid one i posess, and thats not a good thing.

 

@ivan: if you only could read(or had a brain)...

but why bother reading or even adding something constructive, when you can get an easy +1 on your postcounter. :tard:

[ColonelPete]

Sorry, I can take Iowas apart in that thing...

 

And you do not seem to be interested in facts. Basicly the discussion with you is pointless. You seem to live in your own little world.

[Penguin_mafia]

Sorry, I can take Iowas apart in that thing...

Can confirm 

 

To OP, Scharn is quite possibly the best ship (tier for tier) in the game, it can fight anything and has no real weaknesses. putting 7k salvos of AP into broadside BBs is incredibly easy and boucing even 41cm shells is possible with perfectly angled armour. Hell, that iowa I killed was taking 5k AP salvos bow on because of its huge superstructure. Obviously it demolishes cruisers and any DD within 7.2km (or 7.6 with the sec flag) will get pounded by the secondaries, not to count the fast reloading main battery with good target tracking ability and the ships own stupid handling. Carriers don't fare much better, it has decent AA even with no investment apart from aft like my sec build.

 

I have gotten away with far more stupid plays in this ship than any of my other ones, it can survive for ages under concentrated fire by multiple ships, long enough to run away and hide to regen health.

[Jadefalken]

@ivan: if you only could read(or had a brain)...

but why bother reading or even adding something constructive, when you can get an easy +1 on your postcounter. :tard:

 

 

Well funny, I have the Scharnhorst and I enjoy playing her aggressive... getting close... I read and read clearly what you what write and to be honest all I can make out from your constant wall of whine is " I can't play this ship how it was designed to be played! Buff this ship so I can play it my way... long range sniper"!

 

That is all I hear.. if you do not like her how she is meant to be played then sell her! Play the IJN BB's and shoot from borders! German BB's are meant to played aggressive.

 

Never mind... buff crying whining little kids like you will never learn to play ships correctly or stop living in your snowflake bubble wrap world... get real... and if you don't want advice or tips and fail to listen and say thank you to the people who have given you clear advice how to improve playing the ship then don't whine and cry like a toddler on the forums looking for attention!!! 

[beercrazy]

personally I don't find a problem with the Scharnhorst and think its a bit op for its tier

the Scharnhorst is not a long range sniper and you have to get close to use torps and secondary guns

one of my better games with 8 kills and proper brawling using the secondary guns to maximum effect

 

[tsounts]

OP, this is what you probably should be playing!

 

 

[Cpt_Mooney]

Sure she "can" perform nicely given the right circumstances, and severe mistakes made by the enemy.

Ina match where theese blatant mistakes are abselt tho, youll have a very hard time contributing to the team effort.

Allso, whats completely neglected here so far, is that there are "benchmarks" derived from the numbers.

Now, the argument of her high win/loss ratio is often brought up, but then again one has to consider that the people who prefer a rapier over a cutlass,

are most likely seasoned players, as opposed to the Tirpiz being an obvious goto for a whole lot of newcomers, who decide by the pricetag.

That being sayd, it shouldnt be suprising to see relatively good match statistics here.

 

Allso, a thing ive learned from CCP, things that get used very often, tend to be on the "slightly op" side of things.

Thats how this comapny adresses their rebalance shedule, the vast majority of people use a certain ship? Time to look into it.

Now, just today ive had SEVERAL matches with 5-6 Tirpizes lumbering around, and i actually cannot recall a recent t8+ match with this particular ship being absent.

In contrast, the Scharn is quite not a rarety, but you can play noumerous matches without running into one.

That alone should tell even the most mentally hamstrung monkey alot about the current state of balance.

 

Now, lets look at that number-benchmarking thing:

What the numbers actually reveal is best demonstrated with a direct comparrison of the basic and premium T7 and T8 ships side by side

(i know, ive sayd this before. none of the posts so far even remotely adresses an of it tho):

Tirpiz gets a 100 HP larger pool over the Bismark, while Scharnhorsts is cut by 1900 HP compared to the Gneisenau, while both are supposed to be brawlers.
With something that excells at long range, reduced HP would make perfect sense, not so for a brawler.

 

Tirpiz gets a rack of 4 torps on each side on top what the Bismark gets, with no drawback being introduced for compensation, other than less capable AA.
Scharnhorsst gets a different set of guns, with an arbitrarily reduced damage value of 800 per shell on the 283 guns(compared to same guns on the Graf Spee),

everely reduced accuracy(eliminating the entire point of opting for smaller, more precise calibers), and a simmilar hit to its AA.
So it DOES get a balancing treatment, for something that even disadvantageous to begin with, when compared to the standard armament of the Gneisenau.

Something remarkably absent on her tier 8 counterpart.
If anything its other attribute deserve a buff, considering guns that cant shoot straight, deal less base damage then the allready low caliber is supposed to,

and cant hurt most of the enemy ships you face in matches(6 enemy BBs at times, funkey stuff), even when talking same tier cruisers, and lets not even talk about BBs.
A "cruiser killer" not being able to actually hurt cruisers on its own tier or even 1 above should make one start to think, and reconsider decisions made.

 

Tirppiz allso gets the speed advantage over the Scharnhorst, when compared to their sisterships, with the Gneis going 2kn faster than her sister, while Bismark only outpaces her sister by 0.5kn.
Taking into account that Scharnhorst is dependant on being able to catch up with her enemies, while Tirpiz is just experiencing a performance impact at range instead of being unable to perform
at all, its obvious that theese numbers should be more like the other way around.

 

In summary, while the T8 premium gets a straight forward buff comppared its free counterpart, in T7 you get a inconsistent design concept, that provides a severe nerf over its sister.

All justified by high ROF guns, that lack punch or penetration, and have such a terrible accuracy, that in reality her DPS are alot lot lower than at first glance, due to mitigation and misses.
Quite frankly, a premium ship should under no circumstances be a downgrade, compared to their sisters that an be obtained for free.

[Exocet6951]

 

In summary, while the T8 premium gets a straight forward buff comppared its free counterpart, in T7 you get a inconsistent design concept, that provides a severe nerf over its sister.

All justified by high ROF guns, that lack punch or penetration, and have such a terrible accuracy, that in reality her DPS are alot lot lower than at first glance, due to mitigation and misses.
Quite frankly, a premium ship should under no circumstances be a downgrade, compared to their sisters that an be obtained for free.

 

Yeah, trading hydro, the best secondaries in the game all tiers considered, easily over twice the AA at 3.5 and 2km for one torpedo launcher per side is obviously just a straight forward buff, and the Bismarck has obviously noooooooooooo advantage over that epic torpedo action the Tirpitz has.

 

Also, if the Scharnhorst is such a downgrade, why is she the best performing ship in the game tier by tier ?

(only taking into consideration ships that someone here at this very instant can buy through gold or credits)

 

 

You're so full of **** that it's starting to be sad.

 

Not only are you here defending the fact that the Scharnhorst is bad,despite it having 55% WR and much higher average damage than any tier7 BB, hell more average damage than half the tier8 BBs, but you're all defending the Bismarck in a thread that's not at all about it, completely ignoring all its strengths and pointing out that it's not OP because the Tirpitz is the same ship (it's really not) with torpedoes, and that one doesn't have 53% WR

 

 

You're so completely delusional that I'm finding myself wondering if you're doing a social study about how long people are willing to debate with you when you're being purposefully obtuse, dishonest and going in all directions at the same time.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

OP should ask for a refund 

 

Then give the reasons and watch the WG employee in the office go

[ColonelPete]

Sure she "can" perform nicely giv...

...

eir sisters that an be obtained for free.

 

This pointless post has nothing to do with the performance of the ships.

The relevant data was already posted and ignored by you.

[Blitzkrieguk]

Pls boof Scharnhurst. It am not OP enuf. Pls put Radar and Hydro as well, muh wunderwaffe books said it much stronk siemka. 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

Pls boof Scharnhurst. It am not OP enuf. Pls put Radar and Hydro as well, muh wunderwaffe books said it much stronk siemka. 

 

And triple 420mm turrets with the same 20s reload 

 

(But then OP would be whine that all his shots are over-penning)

[mtm78]

The thing is, she only works well when you get to slaughter t5 seals.

Against enemies who know about what her traits are and adapt accordingly, shes performing really poorly.

BBs with the exception of waterslugs(i.e. US BBs below T8) will just show you their tail, cruisers will keep you at 14 while presenting a low profile and destoyers

are a complete game of RNG with those terribly innacurate guns to begin with.

Sure its great fun to ponder away at "below average" players, that just see a BB icon and think nothing of it, but as soon as your target shows some common sense

and knowledge, the problems with this ship become apparent.

Trust me, being only useful for getting rid of the potatoes gets old really fast...

 

And its not like MM would often do you the favor of not having you fight tier8 and 9s atm.

t5 is allmost dead due to awful matchmaking, and so you usually dont get to play ina scenario where the ship, as it is right now, works satisfactory.

At those tiers YOU are the slow guy, and you cannot dictate conditions or range at all.

 

Uhm no. 

 

This is a clear case of you needing to l2p the ship properly. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Odo_Toothless]

(....)

All justified by high ROF guns, that lack punch or penetration, and have such a terrible accuracy, that in reality her DPS are alot lot lower than at first glance, due to mitigation and misses.(...)

 

When I look at my stats in Scharnh only a small amount of shots are non penetrations and bounces. While taking any cruiser with better accuracy at least half of them are wasted. Much more important then DPS/accuracy is your DMG potential which could be delivered in game time. Facts are - Scharnhorst is delivering from 40 to 100K (main guns, secondaries, torps) and much more accurate ex. Indianapolis from 30 to 50K on average. Why not more ? Becouse he will die a lot of sooner then BB. So survability is a great factor too.

 

Anyway, paper stats are not playing. Choose broadside targets first, then other and switch between AP/HE. Then Scharnh is doing fine. He can destroy any CA/BB with proper playing, but it takes time. It's my favourite ship to play. It give me the most fun :-)

 

My stats exactly show how much better he is then normal US cruiser. It's even more accurate in my hands then Indi (here a lot of shots are wasted hunting DD even at max distances), becouse much better shell flight characteristics and becouse of armor he can fight on much closer distances.

 

Scharnhorst	7	BB		54	64.81%	DMG 66,893			ship 1.1	plane 2.0	48%	accuracy 26%	8%	1,184
Indianapolis	7	CA/CL		174	56.32%	DMG 37,230			ship 0.8	plane 1.4	51%	accuracy 22%	0%	1,198

[Blitzkrieguk]

 

And triple 420mm turrets with the same 20s reload 

 

(But then OP would be whine that all his shots are over-penning)

 

In my sekrit dokumintz it had in 4x quad turrets the 800mm gustuv cannons with laser range finders.

[El2aZeR]

arguably the Gneis is better atm, because it can engage all shiptypes at all ranges

 

Something tells me you have never played the Gneisenau. She barely hits anything even within 6km.

And cruisers only get potential "immunity" to Scharnhorst guns at T8 (with the exception of Edinburgh). Her guns are perfectly fine against cruisers below that.

 

Frankly you're spouting a bunch of nonsense right now and everyone with half a brain has stopped taking you seriously. You call having 1.9k HP more a big advantage? Really? You haven't even properly checked your facts despite me telling you straight up that you're wrong on multiple accounts.

But hey, I'll give it one more effort, if you're still on about this after that I'll give up.

 

What does the Scharnhorst do better than the Gneisenau?

- more guns with better accuracy (same dispersion, but Scharnhorst has significantly better Sigma at 2.0 while Gneisenau has 1.8)

- faster reload

- much better turret traverse

- better at setting things on fire (more shells + faster reload = more fires)

- arguably better secondaries (granted, stock Gneisenau has them, too)

- 0.4km more range (since you seem to insist that 1.9k HP is such a big difference, this one should be one as well)

- 0.2s better rudder shift and 30m less turning circle (same applies here)

- 0.6km less air detectability (guess what, here also)

- earns much more exp and credits

- can train KM captains

 

What does the Gneisenau do better than the Scharnhorst?

- higher caliber guns (but much fewer of them)

- individually better shells (but the extra guns of the Scharnhorst again compensate for this)

- better AA

- 1.9k more HP

- 2kn faster

 

Oh, looks like the Gneisenau doesn't actually have too many advantages over the Scharnhorst after all. Now will you please quit your whining and just learn to play?

 

Sorry, I can take Iowas apart in that thing...

 

Tbh that isn't really much of a benchmark since Iowa is probably one of, if not the most fragile BB out there (not counting T3-4).

[eliastion]

Sure she "can" perform nicely given the right circumstances, and severe mistakes made by the enemy.

Ina match where theese blatant mistakes are abselt tho, youll have a very hard time contributing to the team effort.

Allso, whats completely neglected here so far, is that there are "benchmarks" derived from the numbers.

Now, the argument of her high win/loss ratio is often brought up, but then again one has to consider that the people who prefer a rapier over a cutlass,

are most likely seasoned players, as opposed to the Tirpiz being an obvious goto for a whole lot of newcomers, who decide by the pricetag.

That being sayd, it shouldnt be suprising to see relatively good match statistics here.

 

Allso, a thing ive learned from CCP, things that get used very often, tend to be on the "slightly op" side of things.

Thats how this comapny adresses their rebalance shedule, the vast majority of people use a certain ship? Time to look into it.

Now, just today ive had SEVERAL matches with 5-6 Tirpizes lumbering around, and i actually cannot recall a recent t8+ match with this particular ship being absent.

In contrast, the Scharn is quite not a rarety, but you can play noumerous matches without running into one.

That alone should tell even the most mentally hamstrung monkey alot about the current state of balance.

 

Now, lets look at that number-benchmarking thing:

What the numbers actually reveal is best demonstrated with a direct comparrison of the basic and premium T7 and T8 ships side by side

(i know, ive sayd this before. none of the posts so far even remotely adresses an of it tho):

Tirpiz gets a 100 HP larger pool over the Bismark, while Scharnhorsts is cut by 1900 HP compared to the Gneisenau, while both are supposed to be brawlers.
With something that excells at long range, reduced HP would make perfect sense, not so for a brawler.

 

Tirpiz gets a rack of 4 torps on each side on top what the Bismark gets, with no drawback being introduced for compensation, other than less capable AA.
Scharnhorsst gets a different set of guns, with an arbitrarily reduced damage value of 800 per shell on the 283 guns(compared to same guns on the Graf Spee),

everely reduced accuracy(eliminating the entire point of opting for smaller, more precise calibers), and a simmilar hit to its AA.
So it DOES get a balancing treatment, for something that even disadvantageous to begin with, when compared to the standard armament of the Gneisenau.

Something remarkably absent on her tier 8 counterpart.
If anything its other attribute deserve a buff, considering guns that cant shoot straight, deal less base damage then the allready low caliber is supposed to,

and cant hurt most of the enemy ships you face in matches(6 enemy BBs at times, funkey stuff), even when talking same tier cruisers, and lets not even talk about BBs.
A "cruiser killer" not being able to actually hurt cruisers on its own tier or even 1 above should make one start to think, and reconsider decisions made.

 

Tirppiz allso gets the speed advantage over the Scharnhorst, when compared to their sisterships, with the Gneis going 2kn faster than her sister, while Bismark only outpaces her sister by 0.5kn.
Taking into account that Scharnhorst is dependant on being able to catch up with her enemies, while Tirpiz is just experiencing a performance impact at range instead of being unable to perform
at all, its obvious that theese numbers should be more like the other way around.

 

In summary, while the T8 premium gets a straight forward buff comppared its free counterpart, in T7 you get a inconsistent design concept, that provides a severe nerf over its sister.

All justified by high ROF guns, that lack punch or penetration, and have such a terrible accuracy, that in reality her DPS are alot lot lower than at first glance, due to mitigation and misses.
Quite frankly, a premium ship should under no circumstances be a downgrade, compared to their sisters that an be obtained for free.

 

What a load of bull.

1. Scharnhorst isn't a ship that "can perform well" against especially bad enemies - it CONSISTENTLY performs well. 

2. Scharnhorst is SECOND MOST PLAYED SHIP AT t7! It is NOT an exclusive ships that just appears once in a while. In last two weeks there were TWO TIMES as many Scharnhorsts sailing around than Nagatos. Despite it being a premium. And yes, there are more Tirpitzes but it's just that t8 is more populated (not to mention that t8 is the highest premium sip tier so people prefer t8 premiums for moneymaking). Scharnhorst actually has similar % games of her silver sister as Tirpitz of Bismarck's.

3. Bismarck is actually considered BETTER than her gold sister - and the stats confirm it. So, you have:

 - experienced players saying that Bismarck is as good or better than Tirpitz

 - GOOD experienced players saying the same

 - stats showing that Bismarck does, indeed, perform better on average

Sure. Stats can be disputed. But seeing how consistent all the above are? I'm pretty comfortable in saying that yes, the stats of one of the most played ships of it's tear aren't effect of only elite players playing it, but rather reflect the simple fact that it's a great ship

4. One personal aspect of the issue.

average main battery hit% for Scharnhorst over last 2 weeks: 29%

YOUR average main battery hit% for her over the same period? 22%

You hit a bit above 3/4 of what an average Scharnhorst player does. How does it happen? Might it be that other Scharnhorst players get some version of the ship with better dispersion or more speed to close in on their enemies? Or perhaps, just perhaps, it's not the ship that's in fault here?...

[Kenliero]

For those who want to compare Gneise Vs Scharn

 

Something tells me you have never played the Gneisenau. She barely hits anything even within 6km.

And cruisers only get potential "immunity" to Scharnhorst guns at T8 (with the exception of Edinburgh). Her guns are perfectly fine against cruisers below that.

 

Frankly you're spouting a bunch of nonsense right now and everyone with half a brain has stopped taking you seriously. You call having 1.9k HP more a big advantage? Really? You haven't even properly checked your facts despite me telling you straight up that you're wrong on multiple accounts.

But hey, I'll give it one more effort, if you're still on about this after that I'll give up.

 

What does the Scharnhorst do better than the Gneisenau?

- more guns with better accuracy (same dispersion, but Scharnhorst has significantly better Sigma at 2.0 while Gneisenau has 1.8)

- faster reload

- much better turret traverse

- better at setting things on fire (more shells + faster reload = more fires)

- arguably better secondaries (granted, stock Gneisenau has them, too)

- 0.4km more range (since you seem to insist that 1.9k HP is such a big difference, this one should be one as well)

- 0.2s better rudder shift and 30m less turning circle (same applies here)

- 0.6km less air detectability (guess what, here also)

- earns much more exp and credits

- can train KM captains

 

What does the Gneisenau do better than the Scharnhorst?

- higher caliber guns (but much fewer of them)

- individually better shells (but the extra guns of the Scharnhorst again compensate for this)

- better AA

- 1.9k more HP

- 2kn faster

 

Oh, looks like the Gneisenau doesn't actually have too many advantages over the Scharnhorst after all. Now will you please quit your whining and just learn to play?

 

 

That was pretty good sum up.

If you want to see it also compared to other T7 ships, check the following video  (comparison sheet is 16 mins into the video)

 

 

 

[Lin3]

Cpt_Mooney, whilst you're about it, how about suggesting:

 

Greater gun range and better stealth for the Gremy?

More DPM, greater gun range and larger smoke clouds for the Kutozov?

Better stealth and more heals for the Atago?

 

[mtm78]

More DPM, greater gun range and larger smoke clouds for the Kutozov?

 

Fog for the Fog God plox

[RUSSIANBlAS]

USN smoke for the Kutuzov...

 

Plus 420mm for Nikolai giving it Grosse Currywurst levels of firepower. Oh and give her bow IJN Long Lance torps.

[Niaro]

And make it poff out the USN smoke for over a minute like the Perth.

So i can insult the rare carrier or someone that uses autopilot on the map with my smoke.