German destroyers - tactics experience

[Quetak]

Do People forget here the fast reload rate on German DD-Torps?

 

 

I'm not the experienced DD-Skipper but it seems it is nearly twice as fast as of the other nations...

 

its great, I dont have 17pt captain yet but currently 76s torp reload with module is quite short for T9. With captain it will be something around 68s. Its probably compensation for lower torp damage. 

 

[Iron_Gekko]

Started laughing when you said other DDs can't fight you 1on1

 

FYI the Z-52 gets murdered and dissolved with chemicals in a bathtub by anything russian, mutilated by anything american and taken at least 2/3 of her HP off by yugumo and shima

 

nice arrogant and completely unconstructive reply, but then again I guess you kids are the Trump generation...

 

if you meet a player that actually gives you a stand up fight you simple smoke and hydro, he cant do accurate return fire and has to run. You switch to HE and disable his motor before picking him apart, if he closes then you have the torp drop on him since they reload that fast...

 

Any reply constructive reply to above or are you going to drop another generic and predictable barb?

[Iron_Gekko]

Who is this GeneraIlKrizmuz anyways? Was there a babyboom just before Christmass? these use to be constructive forms...

[GeneraIlKrizmuz]

 

nice arrogant and completely unconstructive reply, but then again I guess you kids are the Trump generation...

 

if you meet a player that actually gives you a stand up fight you simple smoke and hydro, he cant do accurate return fire and has to run. You switch to HE and disable his motor before picking him apart, if he closes then you have the torp drop on him since they reload that fast...

 

Any reply constructive reply to above or are you going to drop another generic and predictable barb?

 

How is this supposed to work? Do you intend to teleport into hydro range? And then hope he will stay within hydro range for the 5 minutes that it will take your woeful DPM to take him out? Let's assume for a second that you managed to ambush him by a miracle. Anybody with half a brain will disengage, wait for your pitiful smoke to run out, smoke up himself and start taking you apart while you are being spotted through the entire map. Or just rush and murder you in a DPM duel. You can make up fiction stories but your numbers don't lie.

[Mayv]

Do People forget here the fast reload rate on German DD-Torps?

I'm not the experienced DD-Skipper but it seems it is nearly twice as fast as of the other nations...

 

They do have a fast relload at 90s, but they are quad luanchers and their torpedoes do the least damage at 14400. The reload speed makes the potential damage through out the game about the same as DDs from other nations. Faster reload vs Alpha damage, which is better depends on the circumstances.

 

The torpedoes are fast, stealthy with good range though.

[_Teob_]

 

nice arrogant and completely unconstructive reply, but then again I guess you kids are the Trump generation...

 

if you meet a player that actually gives you a stand up fight you simple smoke and hydro, he cant do accurate return fire and has to run. You switch to HE and disable his motor before picking him apart, if he closes then you have the torp drop on him since they reload that fast...

 

Any reply constructive reply to above or are you going to drop another generic and predictable barb?

 

How about you stop being so sensitive, buttercup. He made a series of jokes. There were no ad hominems aimed at you. His post was mildly amusing.

You however came out swinging. So even though you say he's a "kid" from the Trump generation, you seem to share the president-elect's notoriously thin skin.

And you were so terribly hurt by his post that you decided you make a second post that was literally just insults thrown in his direction where you complain about nonconstructive posts, you flaming hypocrite.

 

As far as who he is, he's one of the best tier 10 DD players on the server (and as far as I can see he's a decent DD player overall), you are not. How about you listen to what he has to say as he's been 100% right in his assessment (even though he put it in a colourful way). If you don't believe him, how about you believe me (feel free to check my stats in the Z-52 if you don't think I have the credentials either to make a judgement on the ship).

 

Did the teenagers not give you their seat on the bus today or were they out of haemorrhoid cream at the pharmacy that you're so sensitive and upset, grandpa?

 

(I should mention that GeneraIlKrizmuz and I have never spoken as far as I know and we are not friends or even acquaintances - I am sure he will attest to that)

[Srle_Vigilante]

 

nice arrogant and completely unconstructive reply, but then again I guess you kids are the Trump generation...

 

if you meet a player that actually gives you a stand up fight you simple smoke and hydro, he cant do accurate return fire and has to run. You switch to HE and disable his motor before picking him apart, if he closes then you have the torp drop on him since they reload that fast...

 

Any reply constructive reply to above or are you going to drop another generic and predictable barb?

 

But hes right. And what you said only work for 1% of situations, because almost nobody in a DD especially on tier 10 is stupid enough to rush smokescreen's, not to mention Z-52s, also that Smoke lasts for 70 seconds which is so bad that its impossible to utilize to that effect.

 

Also i went on a rant once, i don't feel like bashing the poor thing anymore. So ill just requote my self:

 

*Rant intensifies*

 

Well lets see the Improvements over the Z-46: Range, Torp range, Gun sounds, sonar, AA and speed i guess.

What does it do well compared to others. Torps are worse then every other ship, Maybe Kebab is worse. Guns are worse then everything Excluding shima, sometimes even shima outperforms, just becuase Better HE damage. Concealment... We all know what the issue here is.

So what you have at Tier 10, is a ship that cannot face any other DDs because its AP and HE are absolute trash, while its trying to torp ships from 10 km (8.4 if you are me) and stealth firing from 13.7 Km (its as useful as it sounds, please remove Stealth firing, is OP).

 

Honestly Z-46 is a better Tier 10 then the Z-52 just because it has shima detection of 5.9 km...

*Rant deintensifies*

 

Ive come up with a perfect solution for the Z-52. Just take the Minotaur rename it to Z-5x and replace the Z-52 with that... I mean it can do basically everything better then it.

Better concealment, range, torpedoes and smoke.... You know.. Im giving real arguments here. Totally not angry.... 

 

 

[MoveZig]

So I guess it's true that these DDs take more AP damage. Was playing LM and running away from a Spee, it hit me twice in the side at an extreme angle and I'm pretty sure they knocked off 60% of my health. I've also done full pen damage with the 128mms on these DDs, that's 990 a pop if I'm not mistaken.

[_Teob_]

So I guess it's true that these DDs take more AP damage. Was playing LM and running away from a Spee, it hit me twice in the side at an extreme angle and I'm pretty sure they knocked off 60% of my health. I've also done full pen damage with the 128mms on these DDs, that's 990 a pop if I'm not mistaken.

 

I have the same impression.

 

Now my "evidence" is anecdotal at best but I tend to play both the Gearing and the Z52 equally. The Gearing is a fat little tub and takes normal pen dmg quite often. The Z52 is much thinner but it seems to take normal pen dmg even more often somehow. Like every time a BB shoots at me, I know I will take normal pen dmg. I was recently totally broadside to a Montana, it shot at me, 2 shells hit me, both normal pens (approx. 9k dmg).

 

I keep saying this, the German DDs are mostly average ships at best that have a really useful tool strapped to them (hydro). If you can make that tool offset the weaknesses you will have a good time.

[Beardroid91]

What kind of build would you say is the best for the Z-23? 

 

I currently run this setup on my Z-23 with a soon to be 19 point captain (22K left)

 

Priority Target, PreventiveM., Adrin.Rush, Last Stand, Torpedo reload, concealment, RPF, and the last to points i think either Jack of all Trades or Expert Marksman.

 

What do you guys thing? Personally i find this to be working pretty well got my first 172K damage game in the Z-23 yesterday testing this build so seems to be working.

 

But would you guys change anything, and think of it as a Z-23 build only, as i'm not getting Z-46.

[Procrastes]

I like those special German-engineered, forward-shooting torpedo tubes!

This has prompted me to go as far up the German DD tree as to the V-170 at tier 4. After that one, those tubes seem to vanish from the line?

 

The V-170 is fun enough, I guess - but she can't hold a candle to the American tier 4, the Clemson. Those twin-mounted 103 mm guns on that little beast, and the fact that she can put twelve (12!) torpedoes in the water almost simultaneously - what a ship-killer! The only thing the V-170 can boast of here, is two more kilometres of range, giving her the option to stealth-torp. Which is nice, of course - but if you fire at something that is 7 km off, you probably won't hit anything anyway.

 

[Azakeit]

What kind of build would you say is the best for the Z-23? 

 

I currently run this setup on my Z-23 with a soon to be 19 point captain (22K left)

 

Priority Target, PreventiveM., Adrin.Rush, Last Stand, Torpedo reload, concealment, RPF, and the last to points i think either Jack of all Trades or Expert Marksman.

 

What do you guys thing? Personally i find this to be working pretty well got my first 172K damage game in the Z-23 yesterday testing this build so seems to be working.

 

But would you guys change anything, and think of it as a Z-23 build only, as i'm not getting Z-46.

 

​I'm at the Z23 too and use the same build as you (except RPF which has no use for me as i don't hunt ships with german DDs).

German DDs are torpedo-oriented-boats for me, I can't compete with other DDs in a knife fight (maybe the Kagero...) and sometimes smoke near BBs or cruisers and spam a little HE on enemy ships.

 

I use the 150mm guns for extra fire chance and one more gun, but I think against enemy DDs the 128mm may be better.

[_Teob_]

 

​I'm at the Z23 too and use the same build as you (except RPF which has no use for me as i don't hunt ships with german DDs).

German DDs are torpedo-oriented-boats for me, I can't compete with other DDs in a knife fight (maybe the Kagero...) and sometimes smoke near BBs or cruisers and spam a little HE on enemy ships.

 

I use the 150mm guns for extra fire chance and one more gun, but I think against enemy DDs the 128mm may be better.

 

The only better DD hunters are russian boats with RL.

 

If you catch an enemy DD bow on and in your hydro range, you just smoke up and rail him. In order for him to get away he either has to give you broadside or back up slowly - and that's not really an optimal course if they want to run away.

 

They are torpedo boats but with the right spec they are incredibly deadly DD hunters.

[Azakeit]

In theory yes but this scenario almost never happen, most of the time i play like any other stealth DD (advance to caps or open water to spot, or in the usual routes DDs tend to sail) and try to torp the advancing fleet, but when I encounter enemy DDs there're the scenarios :

 

- against IJN DDs, they spot me first, I get shot from enemy cruisers/bb, eventually I catch them up when they turn but if they flee and I pursue firing at him i'll get shot down by the rest of the team, if he smokes and i rush him with hydro i'll have to smoke when i'm in range of hydro-spotting distance and wait for the smoke to cover me to shoot him otherwise i'll be spotted again and shot/torped.

 

- against USN DDs the fight is close and it's a matter of aiming, but if he smokes and i want to hydro him, same again as above the risk is too high.

 

- against Soviet DDs I can spot them before and hope my team will assist before he spots me, but if he decides to hunt me i'm dead.

 

I like the idea of the German DDs being "average" and I think they can be a good torpedo boat, but in general torpedoes are not so powerful in an average game.

 

 

[_Teob_]

In theory yes but this scenario almost never happen, most of the time i play like any other stealth DD (advance to caps or open water to spot, or in the usual routes DDs tend to sail) and try to torp the advancing fleet, but when I encounter enemy DDs there're the scenarios :

 

- against IJN DDs, they spot me first, I get shot from enemy cruisers/bb, eventually I catch them up when they turn but if they flee and I pursue firing at him i'll get shot down by the rest of the team, if he smokes and i rush him with hydro i'll have to smoke when i'm in range of hydro-spotting distance and wait for the smoke to cover me to shoot him otherwise i'll be spotted again and shot/torped.

 

- against USN DDs the fight is close and it's a matter of aiming, but if he smokes and i want to hydro him, same again as above the risk is too high.

 

- against Soviet DDs I can spot them before and hope my team will assist before he spots me, but if he decides to hunt me i'm dead.

 

I like the idea of the German DDs being "average" and I think they can be a good torpedo boat, but in general torpedoes are not so powerful in an average game.

 

The scenario happens all the time for me but I mostly play t10. I think the z52 is special because of the longer range hydro though so you might have to get to that point before what I am saying makes sense.

 

But if you smoke, hydro, nothing should be able to push into you. Use AP if they show broadside but only if you're sure it will be worth it. I can and regularly get 4-5k salvos on russian DDs and Gearing.

 

I have almost 300 matches in the z52 so I guarantee what I am saying is true.

[Azakeit]

Yeah the hydro on the T8 is not very effective for aggressive playstyle

See you in 2 months so when i'll be unlocking the Z52 :p

[Tsume_Eiranis]

I mean, was it ever properly stated what the "gimmick" of the German DD line was meant to be?

 

Fast reload Torps aside, there seems very little speaking for them.

 

I have only played myself up to the Tier VI, Gaede, but I just don't know.

 

The 150mm guns are actually decent-ish, definitely better than the 128mm. But the raw DPS is just so painful.

 

My problems:

- I don't dare to go into a knifefight with an American or Russian DD because they have better DPS and my HE is the bad German HE variant

- I don't dare to chase a Japanese DD because they can easily stealth back while I am in full bloom and exposed over half the map.

- I can't drop torps unless an enemy is sailing towards me because the fireing range vs detection range makes it difficult to do something else

- I can't disengage because I am too slow (plus the bloom, see above), and my defensive measure, smoke, has a shorter duration as well.

 

So in short, the German DDs have a lot of Cons (which may be partially negated if all DDs get the massive bloom effect?) and very little Pros.

 

My suggestions for a 'fix' at this point: (mind you, one or two would already help, not all of them)

- Give German DDs a reduced bloom duration after fireing so they can disengage more easily (nation gimmick)

- Boost either smoke cloud duration entirely or sonar reach for the upper tiers (only from what I read so far, no personal experience)

- Up the DPS with faster-fireing guns

- Increase the range at least on the 150mm guns

- Give German DDs the normal HE shells

 

I am honestly curious what the ideas were behind the design and I am also wondering how accurate the depiction is. Not to open a can of worms but I was under the impression that Atlantic-operating ships were 'better' than Pacific-operating ships (i.e. Germany and GB vs USA and Japan designs) so maybe someone can educate me on that (mis)conception as well.

[Azakeit]

I have an idea for upping the German DDs concerning the smoke : Make that the smoke is instant, you don't have to wait for the first puff to be hidden. This way you can at least head towards an enemy smoke and hydro it while using your own smoke in the same time.

 

Otherwise, as i don't intend to use stealth fire, the nerfed german HE and detection bloom is not a big problem imho

[VC381]

German DDs IRL were strong on paper but had iffy reliability and seakeeping. Neither of those matter in game, basically all the things you list as weaknesses are soft stats WG just makes up or tweaks as necessary. I think what happened is WG wanted to make a DD line that could do everything then got scared it would be too strong, so found ways to nerf it.

 

As for strengths? They have hydro. This is a unique and very powerful tool for a DD, one that could easily make the whole line stupidly OP. Because of that, their balance is always on a knife-edge, a tiny buff to some other stats could quickly become an enormous advantage combined with hydro.