German destroyers and the future of stealth firing

[dasCKD]

 

I'll come back later to edit this post to break it down to points and their explanations

 

The news of the German stealth firing nerf will probably spread over the entire player base within the next few days. The magnitude of the nerf was so harsh that you would have thought that the KM DDs have the HE alpha damage and gun arcs to make the Zao green with jealousy. With further consideration however, it's quite easy to see that War Gaming is up to. They envisioned the KM DDs as close range DD hunters and point holders. As this is probably the case, they don't want to create another line of the playstyle that is currently being held by the Akizuki and Blysawica. They are obsessed with ship uniqueness if the RN cruisers are anything to go by and KM DDs would do their best work up close anyways considering that they have lackluster HE but very potent but low caliber AP. I personally don't like having opnions removed, but War Gaming's efforts to shoehorn ships and their players into their game vision by disregarding player opinion is a topic in itself, but that's not what this post is about.

 

 

Stealth fire is a mechanic that War Gaming has stated that they want to remove. At the moment stealth firing is a very limited ability that very few ships in very specific circumstances could use. They're also rumors floating around that ships that are most heavily affected by the stealth firing nerf would be compensated in some other trait. The Zao, the ship with the most infamous stealth firing abilities, would probably benefit from the changes irf anything as she has the armor, the range, and the gun arcs to dodge and negate incoming fire even if the enemy ship can see her. Ships like the Akizuki would be the ones to suffer most with her slow speed and large silhouette, but at least she has a smoke screen. The nerf would also create a wider gap between premiums like the Blysawica and their tech tree counterparts, but stealth firing from destroyers is not something that is tactically significant enough that taking it away would be a gigantic nerf to the class especially after the HE performance nerf. The larger issue in my opinion is a far reaching gameplay balance one.

 

 

Battleships a currently the most represented class in the game. War gaming has long espoused the need for a rock, paper, scissors system and to a large part this system is theoretically necessary in order to naturally balance ship numbers in the game without necessitating the creation of rigid numerical quotas and limits for each ship class. If they are too many cruisers then more battleships would be launched. If they are more battleships then more destroyers would be launched. If they are too many destroyers then more cruisers would be launched. That is the theory anyways.

 

The problem however is battleship rushes and its effectiveness. Destroyer charges flat out doesn't work, a tier 10 cruiser would dispatch of 2 destroyers with similar ease to dispatching of 6 of them if the destroyers just charge said cruiser. Battleships charging a destroyer is another matter however. This is mainly because ship number balancing is not done through pure combat effectiveness of a ship class against another but rather the ways their spheres of influences interact.

 

Each ship can be thought to exert a sphere of influence, a sphere of power that holds most strategically aware players away. The power of the sphere becomes more pronounced closer to the ship of origin, as guns, secondaries, and torpedoes all increase in lethality up close to the enemy ship. The issue is that a destroyer, the battleship's counter, exerts a sphere of influence that is fundamentally very different from that of a cruiser or a battleship. A battleship or a cruiser exerts their spheres mainly using their guns. If you come close to them, they shoot at you. The closer you get, the more shots they land. The closer they get, the more likely those shots are to hit somewhere that will really hurt. Destroyers depend on the threat of torpedoes to exert their spheres however, slow loading weapons that can be easily evaded if the enemy anticipates the torpedo destroyer early on. This means that an aggressive and skilled team can push past a destroyer blockade with similar difficulty whether or not the destroyer is alone or is with three or four friends especially now with the introduction of the hydroacoustic search on prominent battleships. The rock, paper, scissors system doesn't work because destroyers can't effectively exert power in the form of a sphere against the battleships. A destroyer's in-game relevance is self-eliminating. One destroyer is incredibly important for the team's success and exerts a sphere of influence that keeps the enemy ships at bay. Three destroyers is generally ideal. Once the destroyer count hits four and higher however, they become largely redundant. The power to exert the sphere of influence is shared between the destroyers so they individually become less powerful in effect. To simplify the effect, an appreciable rise in battleship numbers will reduce a cruiser's strategic effectiveness so battleships can be used to balance cruiser numbers. An appreciable rise in destroyer numbers won't reduce a battleship's strategic effectiveness and so we have the current situation where battleships can just reign free without any contest apart from each other. This is where stealth firing comes in.

 

Stealth firing is not class specific, and some ships are far batter at it than others. At present however, stealth firing is the only effective thing to cull battleship numbers. A large battleship population means a diminished cruiser and destroyer population. Smaller and stealthier ships nullifies stealth firing completely in most cases. Battleships on the other hand can't really do anything about it because basically every ship capable of the stealth fire can easily outrun them whilst still raining down fire on the battleship. A few battleships and a few cruisers reduces the effectiveness of stealth fire because the combined arms as well as speed of mixed ship teams can chase down and kill the would be stealth firer. A pure battleship team however is extremely ineffective at dealing with the stealth firer as the stealth firer can dictate most of the terms of engagement as well as when to break off the engagement. Battleships can't force and engagement against any stealth firing ship in the game right now. This means that currently stealth firing ships are the only ships that are fulfilling the overall destroyer's goals of suppressing battleships when their numbers grow too large. I theorize that this is in fact the reason why battleships are so dominant around the mid tiers but far less prominent (though still populous) around the higher tiers where ships like the Zao lurk. I find the removal of stealth firing concerning. It is currently the only thing that is really stopping further battleship number rises and it isn't a large stretch to theorize that the removal of the mechanic will only result in battleship numbers growing even larger than it is right now.

 

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

well told mate +1

 

[darky_fighter]

DDs shouldn't stay behind the cap zones to do stealth firing. So it is ok if WG nerfs this. CAs need cover but there is a lot of smoke in the game so this cover should be sufficient. Better nerf stealth firing than other things.

[RUSSIANBlAS]

DD stealth fire just annoys BBs, it won't stop them killing the rest of your team. 

 

It takes a long time for a DD to chew through a BBs HP pool and whilst the DD is doing that they can't do anything else like cap or kill other DD effectively. 

 

Torps are the counter to BBs if you're a DD not stealth fire.

[Srle_Vigilante]

I see their point and everything, but what is too much is too much. I don't see how a 128 mm gun has a detection range of a 203 mm gun.

[ColonelPete]

The change is known since last week...

[lafeel]

Only played the V-25  so far but sure feels like fun to me, nerf or no nerf.

[Srle_Vigilante]

The change is known since last week...

 

True that, but nerfing only one line and releasing it as a testing material for others is kinda a BS move if you ask me.

[dasCKD]

well told mate +1

 

Much obliged

DD stealth fire just annoys BBs, it won't stop them killing the rest of your team. 

 

It takes a long time for a DD to chew through a BBs HP pool and whilst the DD is doing that they can't do anything else like cap or kill other DD effectively. 

 

Torps are the counter to BBs if you're a DD not stealth fire.

DDs shouldn't stay behind the cap zones to do stealth firing. So it is ok if WG nerfs this. CAs need cover but there is a lot of smoke in the game so this cover should be sufficient. Better nerf stealth firing than other things.

 

Which is why I specifically said, in my original post, and I quote :

stealth firing from destroyers is not something that is tactically significant enough that taking it away would be a gigantic nerf to the class especially after the HE performance nerf

 

Honestly. Fewer people would argue with me if they listened to what I said

I see their point and everything, but what is too much is too much. I don't see how a 128 mm gun has a detection range of a 203 mm gun.

 

Like I said, I don't necessarily agree with what War Gaming is doing by shoehorning players into playing the game the way they meant it to be played. I simply explained what I believe would be their primary reasoning.

The change is known since last week...

 

Ichase didn't know and neither did any of the large Youtubers (and if they knew they didn't say anything). It's probably safe to assume that most of the playerbase isn't aware of the changes.

 

 

[ColonelPete]

Then these youtubers should spend more time informing themselves.

[dasCKD]

Then these youtubers should spend more time informing themselves.

 

They were given ships and told to tell the player base about it. They played the ships and told the player base about it. No large changes were made last time, they probably assumed that no large changes were made this time. Expecting them to be clairvoyant is just inane, especially seeing as how the 'enlightened' didn't seem to be in a hurry to prapogate the information from a week ago either.

[Ubertron_X]

Yeah, it's a pity if stealth firing will be nerfed as I always enjoy stealth firing at 27.3km+ in my Yamato...

 

[Srle_Vigilante]

Its a shame that German destroyers are now IJN ripoffs. (hopefully i'm wrong, i haven't reached the high tiers yet.)

[Jengkins]

As you guys know some ships are only able to shoot from stealth with a 5 skill captain and the concealment skill. That is still the case with the Z-52 I think. Anyway, to increase shiplines of stealth firing vessels with or without the high skilled captain is more or less inappropriate for the gameplay itself which is already apparent in certain situations. I support the whole idea to get rid of stealth firing in exchange of a few improvements of certain vessels. I think a look into real naval warfare could offer a few solutions in how to compensate the disappearance of stealth firing.

 

The only ships who should be able to stealth fire are BBs from a distance beyond 25km imho. The hit ratio from that distance are so minimal it wouldn't matter. 

 

 

[Amon_ITA]

I really like the way the Op expresses his opinions without rage and motivating his thoughts, it's so rare to read such posts around here nowadays.

 

Congrats.

 

 

 

[IceyJones]

I really like the way the Op expresses his opinions without rage and motivating his thoughts, it's so rare to read such posts around here nowadays.

 

 

Congrats.

 

 

 

 

i cannot be like this.

 

so to sum up in my words:

 

WG.....you SUCK!

 

 

[The_Great_SCH]

Watched a streamer yesterday, who is a unicum player on the NA and EU server, plays really well with all the ships. He was grinding the german DD line and got to T6. His average damage for the day was really really low. Like 20-30k. He was actually raging about how bad thos ships are, and you cannot really find their role in the game. We shall see what changes will WG further do to balance these ships. 

 

 

[Z_OnkelE]

About over a year ago I was one of the lucky guys who managed to finish that mission prior to the introduction of the German cruisers and Russian destroyers. Due to that I was able to test the Ognevoi before the initial launch and before the increased gunfire penalty. Since those days I am a fan of the whole invisi fire concept (at least for reasonable distances, definitely buffers below 2 km are a good margin).

 

I can see how this mechanics does favour teamplay, communication and proper positioning of the enemy. It can be countered without an insane amount of effort and thus it is not overpowered. That almost 6 km Hydro on a destroyer on the other hand... I enjoy what I can do with my Lo Yang and that consumable. She is fine even with her pre buffed Hydro. But longer ranges for that consumable hurt the balance more than destroyers with worse shell trajectories compared to the Russian ones and up to 2 km stealth fire buffer.

[ColonelPete]

 

They were given ships and told to tell the player base about it. They played the ships and told the player base about it. No large changes were made last time, they probably assumed that no large changes were made this time. Expecting them to be clairvoyant is just inane, especially seeing as how the 'enlightened' didn't seem to be in a hurry to prapogate the information from a week ago either.

Reading the forum is no supernatural ability, at least not for me.

If you produce a video in advance, you must be aware that changes can be made. UK cruisers...

[Exocet6951]

[about German DDs]

He was actually raging about how bad thos ships are, and you cannot really find their role in the game. We shall see what

 

My take on it is that they're stupid.

Simply stupid.

 

 

They have arguably better torpedoes than IJN DDs because of their speed and detection range, all while keeping a range sufficient to stealth torp with a 0pt captain and no camo.

But at the same time, you want to use them as gunboats because hydro and decent guns.

But you can't stealth fire because of the huge malus when firing.

 

In short, it's a gunboat line that has better torpedoes than a torpedo line, but is less useful at being a gunboat than a multipurpose line like USN DDs.

They're a hybrid class that creeps up on the advantages of other classes, but still falls face first because there's really nothing they can do.

 

 

 

I'm afraid it's just a preview of things to come.

Entire classes revolving around trying to counter BBs, but just not too much to be an actual threat.

At this rate, the game is going to be a sudden death team deathmatch where DDs and CA/CL brawl with every few seconds a random chance to be deleted.

 

[IceyJones]

 

I'm afraid it's just a preview of things to come.

Entire classes revolving around trying to counter BBs, but just not too much to be an actual threat.

At this rate, the game is going to be a sudden death team deathmatch where DDs and CA/CL brawl with every few seconds a random chance to be deleted.

 

 

"Keen Intuition" for the win

Worst invention ever. Countering whole lines alone......

[Tanaka_15]

the main aim for wg seems to be world of battleships. Thats simple i dont know why we have other classes in game? 

[Kenliero]

How about putting more effort on fixing the carriers, then bring maps that don't all look the same.... rather than using all WG manpower to figuring out what is the next nerf.

[beercrazy]

 

"Keen Intuition" for the win

Worst invention ever. Counting whole lines alone......

 

i can see why they would do this if there was only 1 class in the game battleships and they are slow and it allows the game to end quicker if the teams have a idea where the last ship is

it completely throws the game on its head though when 2 classes destroyers and carriers depend on stealth

the game is getting way way too easy to play for battleships vs everyone else

[creamgravy]

I'm glad they're removing it.

 

Edit: Where did my post go?  Ah well.