Mutsu, New IJN premium Battleship

[fnord_disc]

Nice picture. Such a beauty :-)

 

The Japanese navy liked having unusual funnel setups in the 20s. I suspect most of this was Hiraga's doing since his 1930 design has a curved funnel too and so does Yamato, even though the superstructure hides just how curved her funnel is.

[Affeks]

 

The Japanese navy liked having unusual funnel setups in the 20s. I suspect most of this was Hiraga's doing since his 1930 design has a curved funnel too and so does Yamato, even though the superstructure hides just how curved her funnel is.

 

Did I hear Hiraga and funnel in the same sentence  The 1928/29 designs come to mind 

if WG don't make this a tier 8 prem one day imma get angry. Only picked up the shipbucket pic this time. I have the actual drawings saved somewhere, but that'll have to wait for now.

[VC381]

And all the cruisers, but damn it looks good! Shame they didn't do that for the Amagi A-hull, that trunked funnel looks pretty awful compared to the two she was designed with.

[1MajorKoenig]

And all the cruisers, but damn it looks good! Shame they didn't do that for the Amagi A-hull, that trunked funnel looks pretty awful compared to the two she was designed with.

 

Aaaaargh! No :-)

 

Amagi A-hull is just beautiful!!!!

 

I like the curved funnel on Mogami and Tone a lot to be fair.

[Affeks]

 

Aaaaargh! No :-)

 

Amagi A-hull is just beautiful!!!!

 

I like the curved funnel on Mogami and Tone a lot to be fair.

 

Ehh, Myoko, Aoba, Atago ones are better 

[fnord_disc]

Tbh I'm not sure where the trunked funnel on Amagi A comes from. The as-built design used a double funnel, so I guess even the stock hull is already a fantasy 20s refit.

 

I think Lesta confused Amagi's and Kii's design and gave the trunked funnel that was only on Kii also to Amagi. It's a bit weird. I'll mention it in the next dev QA I guess.

[1MajorKoenig]

Tbh I'm not sure where the trunked funnel on Amagi A comes from. The as-built design used a double funnel, so I guess even the stock hull is already a fantasy 20s refit.

 

I think Lesta confused Amagi's and Kii's design and gave the trunked funnel that was only on Kii also to Amagi. It's a bit weird. I'll mention it in the next dev QA I guess.

 

I read somewhere (forgot where) that one of the designs for Amagi indeed had this trucked funnel design. There are also some plastic models out there that look strikingly similar :-)

 

As Amagi was never finished we don't know for sure but it it not unlikely that she would have pretty much like a longer, more elegant 1920 Nagato with the two funnels. That's true.

 

[Hateshinaku]

 

I read somewhere (forgot where) that one of the designs for Amagi indeed had this trucked funnel design. There are also some plastic models out there that look strikingly similar :-)

 

As Amagi was never finished we don't know for sure but it it not unlikely that she would have pretty much like a longer, more elegant 1920 Nagato with the two funnels. That's true.

 

 

well there were two designs and the one from 1942 (i guess) represents the B and C hull of the Amagi.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

well there were two designs and the one from 1942 (i guess) represents the B and C hull of the Amagi.

 

The B and C hulls are WG's vodka fantasy. They don't have a soul, are idiotically top heavy and cheap copy-paste. The conning tower is copied from Nagato, same as range finders on the turrets, the funnel is copied from Yamato (!) which was some 30,000t larger (that's why it looks idiotic) and the bow is modelled after Akagi's after her conversion to a carrier. 

 

None of these elements are convincing to me - so I HOPE for the T7 premium ship instead. The A hull was actually pretty well done and one of the possibilities how she might have looked towards late 20s.

[VC381]

 

The B and C hulls are WG's vodka fantasy. They don't have a soul, are idiotically top heavy and cheap copy-paste. The conning tower is copied from Nagato, same as range finders on the turrets, the funnel is copied from Yamato (!) which was some 30,000t larger (that's why it looks idiotic) and the bow is modelled after Akagi's after her conversion to a carrier. 

 

None of these elements are convincing to me - so I HOPE for the T7 premium ship instead. The A hull was actually pretty well done and one of the possibilities how she might have looked towards late 20s.

 

We can agree to disagree on whether it looks nice but I find the changes very plausible. The bridge, tower and turrets of Nagato as built and Amagi as designed are so similar that doing anything other than a copy paste for the upgrades would have been much less convincing, for me at least. The funnel needs to be big because the ship has vast installed power (just look at Akagi's funnel). In any case funnels themselves aren't very heavy and the hull got Nagato style bulges so I see no stability concerns (unless your top heavy comment referred only to appearance).

 

Also I want to point out that the refitted Amagi is based almost entirely on a sketch that has been around the internet for a at least a decade before WoWs. Earliest reference I can find is this forum thread from 2005, and that isn't the original so it's even older.

 

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=998695 

 

So while it is fiction, its origin has nothing to do with WG or vodka. It's not soulless in my opinion because it makes sense. There are other drawings, arts and models, unrelated to each-other and to WG, that all assume a rebuilt Amagi class BC would have shared most of the features of the reconstructed Nagato class.

 

All this of course doesn't mean I'm not excited for potential as-built hulls as premiums.

[1MajorKoenig]

 

We can agree to disagree on whether it looks nice but I find the changes very plausible. The bridge, tower and turrets of Nagato as built and Amagi as designed are so similar that doing anything other than a copy paste for the upgrades would have been much less convincing, for me at least. The funnel needs to be big because the ship has vast installed power (just look at Akagi's funnel). In any case funnels themselves aren't very heavy and the hull got Nagato style bulges so I see no stability concerns (unless your top heavy comment referred only to appearance).

 

Also I want to point out that the refitted Amagi is based almost entirely on a sketch that has been around the internet for a at least a decade before WoWs. Earliest reference I can find is this forum thread from 2005, and that isn't the original so it's even older.

 

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=998695 

 

So while it is fiction, its origin has nothing to do with WG or vodka. It's not soulless in my opinion because it makes sense. There are other drawings, arts and models, unrelated to each-other and to WG, that all assume a rebuilt Amagi class BC would have shared most of the features of the reconstructed Nagato class.

 

All this of course doesn't mean I'm not excited for potential as-built hulls as premiums.

 

Fair enough - Even better you like it. Having a sketch on the internet for some time doesn't make it any more credible to me.

 

However - agree let's get back on topic :-)

 

Isn't Mutsu going to be added to the game on Thursday? I am really curious how she will be making out! Hope all goes well and we can welcome her to our port soon!

[fnord_disc]

I agree with the statement that Amagi wouldn't have been top-heavy. The added torpedo bulges are very heavy and would easily offset the christmas tree and the funnel.

 

Fuso had many problems, but the stability was sound even with the pagoda mast.

[1MajorKoenig]

I don't tbh. A number of japanese ships (cruisers) had these problems as the Japanese designers had the tendency to add too much weight too high (platforms, sensors, weapons, etc.). Fuso is a heavy hulk - you can see that she is in total too heavy after her refit but not especially top heavy. Kongo and Nagato are also fine.

 

Amagi's refit could have been more looking like Kongo rebuilt in my opinion. For sure nobody would have wasted weight on a huge fat funnel. Weight high up would have been used for AA emplacements, directors, etc.

 

There are some good artists' impressions on how she could have looked after a refit. I will try to find it :-)

[Rabid_Turnip]

I'm psyched for Mutsu and will get her, but honestly I'd rather have had Ise as a straight T6 premium rather than a deliberately downgraded T7 counting as a T6; Ise would feel more natural. 

[VC381]

I definitely feel the Ise argument but my hope is they're planning her in hybrid form in the future.

 

The IJN ships that had strength and stability problems were those newly built deliberately with light construction and over-armed to squeeze the most out of treaty limits. None of the rebuilt BBs had issues.

 

On another note, now Fuso is the only IJN BB with a 1920s look A-hull and that's weird because she's arguably the one that suffered most from it (at least the others have decent range). I think it's safe to assume that will also get removed in future, but is a premium realistic? 12x 14" guns at T5 balanced by bad shells and short range? Could be interesting...

[fnord_disc]

I don't tbh. A number of japanese ships (cruisers) had these problems as the Japanese designers had the tendency to add too much weight too high (platforms, sensors, weapons, etc.). Fuso is a heavy hulk - you can see that she is in total too heavy after her refit but not especially top heavy. Kongo and Nagato are also fine.

 

Amagi's refit could have been more looking like Kongo rebuilt in my opinion. For sure nobody would have wasted weight on a huge fat funnel. Weight high up would have been used for AA emplacements, directors, etc.

 

There are some good artists' impressions on how she could have looked after a refit. I will try to find it :-)

 

Their cruisers and destroyers are often top-heavy, but this is mostly because of excessive armament. And while it's true that the massive superstructure contributed to Takao's stability problems, a large superstructure has a much bigger impact on small ships. Like I said: Fuso had the biggest superstructure of them all and she did not have stability problems.

 

You seem to have misunderstood me. I'm not saying that Amagi's funnel makes sense (I don't think it does, but I'll leave that for later). I'm just saying that the Amagi rebuild as we see it in the game isn't top-heavy.

 

The reason Amagi's funnel makes no sense is because it uses the same location as the triangular funnel. Essentially, it's just a visual difference, but this ignores why the funnels on the other Japanese ships change in the first place. When the Japanese navy replaced the machinery, they switched from an oil/coal mixture to pure oil, and this generally reduced the number of boilers and compressed the funnels or reduced their number. Amagi's hypothetical rebuild would have had a reduced funnel arrangement similar to Nagato and not the enormity we have in the game. That's the real reason why the enormous Yamato funnel makes no sense on Amagi.

[Kancolle_Kongou]

Tbh I'm not sure where the trunked funnel on Amagi A comes from. The as-built design used a double funnel, so I guess even the stock hull is already a fantasy 20s refit.

 

I think Lesta confused Amagi's and Kii's design and gave the trunked funnel that was only on Kii also to Amagi. It's a bit weird. I'll mention it in the next dev QA I guess.

 

well Kongou in game is Hiei from the point she becomes a B hull (before the stock one was removed) so as soon as you get her now.

[VC381]

 

 

The reason Amagi's funnel makes no sense is because it uses the same location as the triangular funnel. Essentially, it's just a visual difference, but this ignores why the funnels on the other Japanese ships change in the first place. When the Japanese navy replaced the machinery, they switched from an oil/coal mixture to pure oil, and this generally reduced the number of boilers and compressed the funnels or reduced their number. Amagi's hypothetical rebuild would have had a reduced funnel arrangement similar to Nagato and not the enormity we have in the game. That's the real reason why the enormous Yamato funnel makes no sense on Amagi.

 

Akagi still had an enormous funnel in her final configuration with an updated power plant. The installed power is similar (130k shp for Amagi/Akagi, 150k shp for Yamato). Also the slanted funnel makes sense as a design choice to carry the smoke away better than a straight one. 

 

I do agree the forward connection of the funnel doesn't 100% make sense since you're right, the boiler room would likely have been smaller, but the overall size and design isn't implausible.

[1MajorKoenig]

@Darth: will Mutsu be a regular premium ship for purchase or another reward ship like Shinonome?

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I may have to get this ship regardless as I feel T6 is one of the best for BB variety...

[fnord_disc]

@Darth: will Mutsu be a regular premium ship for purchase or another reward ship like Shinonome?

 

I asked S_O about the lack of IJN premiums for sale about a month ago and he said they had some sister ships coming up as premiums and more creative premiums in the long run.

 

So I'm personally about 95% sure it's a money premium.

[Affeks]

I'm psyched for Mutsu and will get her, but honestly I'd rather have had Ise as a straight T6 premium rather than a deliberately downgraded T7 counting as a T6; Ise would feel more natural. 

 

ehhh, Ise is too close to Fuso tbh so having a ship tiered down will actually create more variety due to different matchups (though that doesn't really matter anymore with the shitty MM). Also this is a good way to use the historical hulls that won't be used much otherwise in game.

[fnord_disc]

Nagato is my most-played ship, but I'll probably not be buying Mutsu. The armor is too bad and I can't deal with the awful ballistics.

 

I wish everyone a lot of fun with the ship though.

[Rabid_Turnip]

I definitely feel the Ise argument but my hope is they're planning her in hybrid form in the future.

 

That would be fascinating, if weird; how do you stat a carrier-BB hybrid? I've thought about this a lot since I love the look of the ships so much, and the only thing I could think of (and this would go for Tone, too) would be to make it a straight BB that was able to keep more planes up at once and for longer, something like having two spotters and two fighters up all at once. Adding attack planes to a BB, even a weakly-armed one for its tier, just seems insane; adding a lot more working plane capacity keeps the feel of the RL hybrid but makes it less weird for gameplay and balance. IMHO. 

[VC381]

 

That would be fascinating, if weird; how do you stat a carrier-BB hybrid? I've thought about this a lot since I love the look of the ships so much, and the only thing I could think of (and this would go for Tone, too) would be to make it a straight BB that was able to keep more planes up at once and for longer, something like having two spotters and two fighters up all at once. Adding attack planes to a BB, even a weakly-armed one for its tier, just seems insane; adding a lot more working plane capacity keeps the feel of the RL hybrid but makes it less weird for gameplay and balance. IMHO. 

 

I've got this idea that it will have a small squadron of bombers that will execute an auto attack (no change in view) on a designated target. You just click "U" or whatever consumable and they fly there, try to bomb and come back. Your idea is much simpler to implement and could also be quite strong, with better scout and fighter coverage, kind of like an IJN AA BB/CA with fighters instead of the def AA consumable.