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arczer25

Clemson alternative armament or new ship

  

25 members have voted

  1. 1. Yes or no

  2. 2. alternative armament or new (possibly premium) ship


19 comments in this topic

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small suggestion to give Clemson alternative armament or to make new Clemson with new guns.

 

thx to strengthened gun foundations Clemson not only could mount double 4inch guns, but also 5inch/51 known from stock Nicholas

 

5 Clemson's in total were armed with 5inch/51: Hatfield (D-231), Brooks (D-232), Gilmer (D-233), Fox (D-234) and Kane (D-235)

for compassion only 3 Clemson's carried current top setup dual 4inch/50.

 

new setup trades part of DPS for higher HE penetration (17.5mm vs 21.16mm) making them more useful against thick skinned opponents (like Wyoming and his 19mm plating), higher AP penetration and better velocity.

 

stat comparison

Normal setup: 4x2 4inch/50

Rate of fire: 8.6RPM

180 degree turn time: 18s

HE:

Damage: 1500

Fire chance: 6%

Velocity: 884m/s

HE Penetration (unaffected by armor angle): 17.5mm

DPM* (using all three turrets): 77400dmg/min

AP:

Damage 1700

Velocity: 884m/s

Penetration:

3.3km-76mm

5.7km-51mm

DPM*: 87720dmg/min

 

New setup 4x1 5inch/51

Rate of Fire: 9.23RPM (can be reduced to 8RPM)

180 degree turn time: is stated as manual so it can be both Nicholas 12s or Clemson 18s

HE:

Damage: 1800

Fire chance: 4%

Velocity: 960m/s

HE Penetration (unaffected by armor angle): 21.16mm

DPM*: 49842dmg/min (at 8RPM 43200dmg/min)

AP:

Damage 2200

Velocity: 960m/s

Penetration:

2.9km-102mm

4.7km-76mm

7.3km-51mm

DPM*: 60918dmg/min (at 8RPM 52800dmg/min)

 

* Raw DPM:

citadel is 100% of damage

normal penetration damage is based on damage saturation for first threshold its 33% then 15%

over-penetration is 10%

Edited by arczer25

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added no option for 2 question

+ new setup trades part of DPS for higher HE penetration (17.5mm vs 21.16mm) making them more useful against thick skinned opponents (like Wyoming and his 19mm plating), higher AP penetration and better velocity.

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The ship is already OP...do you really want to worsen that?

 

how that new set would make him even more OP? its trade-off not straight buff, 5inch guns are only single mounts (8vs4 ) with give much less DPM for better hitting power.

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stats comparison

Normal setup: 4x2 4inch/50

Rate of fire: 8.6RPM

180 degree turn time: 18s

HE:

Damage: 1500

Fire chance: 6%

Velocity: 884m/s

HE Penetration (unaffected by armor angle): 17.5mm

DPM* (using all three turrets): 77400dmg/min

AP:

Damage 1700

Velocity: 884m/s

Penetration:

3.3km-76mm

5.7km-51mm

DPM*: 87720dmg/min

 

New setup 4x1 5inch/51

Rate of Fire: 9.23RPM (can be reduced to 8RPM)

180 degree turn time: is stated as manual so it can be both Nicholas 12s or Clemson 18s

HE:

Damage: 1800

Fire chance: 4%

Velocity: 960m/s

HE Penetration (unaffected by armor angle): 21.16mm

DPM*: 49842dmg/min (at 8RPM 43200dmg/min)

AP:

Damage 2200

Velocity: 960m/s

Penetration:

2.9km-102mm

4.7km-76mm

7.3km-51mm

DPM*: 60918dmg/min (at 8RPM 52800dmg/min)

 

* Raw DPM:

citadel is 100% of damage

normal penetration damage is based on damage saturation for first threshold its 33% then 15%

over-penetration is 10%

 

Edited by arczer25

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The ship is already OP...do you really want to worsen that?

 

Only because her traditional counterpart Isokaze got heavily nerfed. Now nerf Clemson and the russian tier 4 DD I have troubles memorizing the proper spelling of becomes OP. Which is bollocks. Tier 4 simply used to be a good tier for DDs. 

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Only because her traditional counterpart Isokaze got heavily nerfed. Now nerf Clemson and the russian tier 4 DD I have troubles memorizing the proper spelling of becomes OP. Which is bollocks. Tier 4 simply used to be a good tier for DDs. 

 

Has got nothing to do with Isokaze, it was always the better DD, people just don't get how to play American DD's at that tier and it drags the stats down. It's probably one of the most OP ships in the game.

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[WGB]
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54DXQ7V.jpgLove the Clemson, great firepower, you have to brawl to get the best of this ship, no good sitting back, firing from a distance.

Just finished a great game in her. Killed 3 enemy DD's in the same cap as me just using guns.

ldYUIdv.jpg

Edited by iJoby

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Here I shall quote the great Eurobeat: "To play the Clemson you need balls of steel."

And too many players don't have them.

 

As for the 5"/51 guns, I don't see why people should use them. While it would offer better penetration power on both ends, there is nothing at that tier that really warrants it.

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Here I shall quote the great Eurobeat: "To play the Clemson you need balls of steel."

And too many players don't have them.

 

As for the 5"/51 guns, I don't see why people should use them. While it would offer better penetration power on both ends, there is nothing at that tier that really warrants it.

i personally use Clemson (with bit above average stats, only solo play) to get back on track after battles with NC where guns literally didn't wanted to punish broadside ships.

 

for 5"/51 there will be persons with would use them as it offer bit of alternative gameplay (like better cruiser/BB shredding at medium ranges, but worse against other DD)

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for 5"/51 there will be persons with would use them as it offer bit of alternative gameplay (like better cruiser/BB shredding at medium ranges, but worse against other DD)

 

Yeah, no. You'll be trading extra firepower for nothing.

Now why is that? Simple, almost everything on the tiers that Clemson can face that can be penetrated by the 5" HE shells can also be penetrated by the 4" ones.

Seriously, check the armor layout of T4 BBs and cruisers. The only notable difference I could find is that you'd be able to citadel a Danae through the deck with 5" HE shells, that's it. And sure, you'd be able to penetrate the 19-20mm plates of deck/bow/aft armor of some BBs, but that is immediately negated by the fact that you'd be able to do more damage with the 4" guns and aiming at the superstructure.

 

Thus there is no alternative gameplay. The 5" guns would be a straight up worse choice than the dual 4" guns.

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Depending on the rest of the stats it might make a decent tier 4 or 5 premium ship.

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Yeah, no. You'll be trading extra firepower for nothing.

Now why is that? Simple, almost everything on the tiers that Clemson can face that can be penetrated by the 5" HE shells can also be penetrated by the 4" ones.

Seriously, check the armor layout of T4 BBs and cruisers. The only notable difference I could find is that you'd be able to citadel a Danae through the deck with 5" HE shells, that's it. And sure, you'd be able to penetrate the 19-20mm plates of deck/bow/aft armor of some BBs, but that is immediately negated by the fact that you'd be able to do more damage with the 4" guns and aiming at the superstructure.

 

Thus there is no alternative gameplay. The 5" guns would be a straight up worse choice than the dual 4" guns.

that's i know, about last part (19-20mm plates of deck/bow/aft) : "damage saturation", via only superstructure damage will drop faster (and some ships have trollish superstructures), AP rounds are also way more effective at delivering citadels to CL.

 

still 2 alternative part of suggestion is to do 2 ship instead of giving Clemson 5" directly

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According to navweaps.com the 5" gun has roughly the same armor penetration at 7km as the 4" gun at 6km (51mm), thus the difference in armor penetration is extremely negligible and only becomes more so the closer you are (WG accurately modeled armor pen to RL values).

 

As for damage saturation, the same can apply to the bow and aft. Neither gun is likely to sink a BB with pure HE damage, thus you pick the gun that has the best chance of starting a fire, which would be the dual 4" ones.

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According to navweaps.com the 5" gun has roughly the same armor penetration at 7km as the 4" gun at 6km (51mm), thus the difference in armor penetration is extremely negligible and only becomes more so the closer you are (WG accurately modeled armor pen to RL values).

 

As for damage saturation, the same can apply to the bow and aft. Neither gun is likely to sink a BB with pure HE damage, thus you pick the gun that has the best chance of starting a fire, which would be the dual 4" ones.

7.3km for 5" and 5.7km for 4" that's 1.6km difference, 2 is that 5" is capable of penetrating 76mm  at 4.7km instead of 3.3km.

 

yes it apply to bow and aft, but damage saturation affect only damaged sections (you shoot at bow after Xdmg it get reduced damage, then you shot aft), also as you shoot at different sections you can also set them on fire.

about fires they are bit wonky, on my Cleveland i rarely get more fires than on Benson, despite differences in fire chances/amount of shells/lower base chance to set fire on high tier ships, most funny is that: you get fire->enemy uses damage con->you get **** ton of fires->damage con runs out->fires? were are they?

funny is that for some reason on Budyonny i got way more fires despite similar HE performance to Cleveland (Russian bias theory?)

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7.3km for 5" and 5.7km for 4" that's 1.6km difference, 2 is that 5" is capable of penetrating 76mm  at 4.7km instead of 3.3km.

 

A very small difference in range, considering most fights in low tier are melees and Clemson is fast enough to rapidly close the distance. The latter even more so since 76mm armor penetration isn't needed at that tier and you're gonna use torps at that range anyway.

 

Clemson is a knife fighter first and foremost, as such you're going to need as much firepower at close range as possible. Fitting guns on her that have a negligible better performance against BBs/cruisers neither suits her playstyle nor does it really improve her in any way. It'd be another noob trap like the 20km IJN DD torps are now.

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A very small difference in range, considering most fights in low tier are melees and Clemson is fast enough to rapidly close the distance. The latter even more so since 76mm armor penetration isn't needed at that tier and you're gonna use torps at that range anyway.

 

Clemson is a knife fighter first and foremost, as such you're going to need as much firepower at close range as possible. Fitting guns on her that have a negligible better performance against BBs/cruisers neither suits her playstyle nor does it really improve her in any way. It'd be another noob trap like the 20km IJN DD torps are now.

 

depens on playstyle, for me knife combat is at around 4-6km were it would me allow to citadel most cruisers 3-5tier as they have around 50-76mm of citadel armor, its not that you have 12 torpedoes with 40s reload for shorter ranges. (stock torpedoes have 26s shorter reload for 1833 dmg and 0.5km more range)

still i have problem that use to think that 4-5tier players have at last half of my current competence level (means: i allways except torps from any charging ship with torpedoes, changing it to sucide run), so i don't charge at enemy unless from suprise, or im in platoon with other Clemson (still i play mainly alone).

other thing is as, playing alone i generally get sometimes missions to carry game and last time i think that 5" would be helpful as i needed to prevent two full HP BB (wayoming and kaiser) from getting bottom capture point without any chance to close in+on low HP after denaying any enemy activity in map center.

 

also when talking about IJN 20km torps, its their own choice: if they learn with set is better its ok, if they somewhat can make it work then its ok, but if they **** blame ship and refuse to learn anything then better leave them alone.

having choice is always something good.

still if you talking about noobtrap, why not remove torps from 70% of cruisers as they are cause of 1/3 of team kills.

 

still you are only talking about alternative armament option

 

Edited by arczer25

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