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theshadow9929

German BB Accuracy

GERMAN ACCURACY  

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  1. 1. Should the Accuracy of German Battleships be Buffed to atleast be COMPETITIVE?


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Niibler   

 

TL,DR: Grass is always greener on the other side.

 

 

Yeah, that is the way of treating facts.

Also mankind never set a foot in the moon.

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Markos   

 

 

I also have a Tirpitz, may I point out. A Tirpitz with more battles than you Kaiser, Konig and Gneisenau put together, might I add.

 

Also, now you're just lying about what German 203mm AP can do. Or you're just mistaking hull penetration with bow/stern/superstructure overpens.

 

TL;DR : "pls no nerf the overperforming ships I'm grinding" and "the grass is always greener on the other side!" Said the high class high budget green as green can be golf course to the cheap put-put gold course.

 

If they nerf then they nerf them i dont mind i will grind them anyway just like i did my german CAs. I like chalange.

 

Yeah, that is the way of treating facts.

Also mankind never set a foot in the moon.

 

That doesn't make any sense.

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Markos   

 

What does KM CA AP have to do with anything?

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/67980-german-bb-accuracy/page__pid__1468194#entry1468194

 

Forget about your own experience; do you honestly see nothing wrong with those statistics?

 

that he thins that you can't overpen belt of bb.

That statistic seems to be wrong especialy tier 6 all of them have too low winrate. Statistics also claim that Yorck is second worst tier 7 silver CA with is simply not true. Statistics are only stats. They don't show you reason, only numbers.

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that he thins that you can't overpen belt of bb.

That statistic seems to be wrong especialy tier 6 all of them have too low winrate. Statistics also claim that Yorck is second worst tier 7 silver CA with is simply not true. Statistics are only stats. They don't show you reason, only numbers.

 

I don't even...

 

In other news, Michael Phelps is rubbish at swimming. Ignore all those phoney 'statistics' and believe me because reasons.

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Markos   

 

I don't even...

 

In other news, Michael Phelps is rubbish at swimming. Ignore all those phoney 'statistics' and believe me because reasons.

 

So go to Lesta and using stats rebalance german bbs. Good luck.

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that he thins that you can't overpen belt of bb.

That statistic seems to be wrong especialy tier 6 all of them have too low winrate. Statistics also claim that Yorck is second worst tier 7 silver CA with is simply not true. Statistics are only stats. They don't show you reason, only numbers.

 

Overpenetration is when your shell hits armour so thin that the fuze fails to arm, and passes through doing minimal damage (10%).

 

If you can overpen BB belt armour, it's not gonna be with CA AP of any nation, not even 220 mm Russian.

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Markos   

 

Overpenetration is when your shell hits armour so thin that the fuze fails to arm, and passes through doing minimal damage (10%).

 

If you can overpen BB belt armour, it's not gonna be with CA AP of any nation, not even 220 mm Russian.

 

I meant that 32mm part of belt. What over all i am saying is game somtimes behave wierdly.

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I meant that 32mm part of belt. What over all i am saying is game somtimes behave wierdly.

 

Unless you hit at a perfect orthogonal angle, the 203mm AP shell with a 34mm armor setting for the fuze will go off.

 

Again, you are factually wrong, and empirically as well, as I have no problem dealing regular penetrations to broadsiding NCs with my Hipper. So unless you're telling that my shells are doing regular pens to the superstructure, sorry but wrong.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/56vk17/looking_for_information_on_fuze_timersdelays/

 

Couldn't find the numbers again, but this is a good start.
Basically, having 380mm shells rather than 406mm+ means not only that the distance required to arm the AP shells is lower, but that the delay is shorter.

But German BB on average have a faster velocity and therefore the difference is mostly negated.
Same deal with 305mm AP shells of al nations which have a tiny fuze delay, which the Germans keep until tier 5, which is why you can citpen so effortlessly VMF cruisers with them.

 

I'd have to pay 5€ to gamesmodel3D for the full datamined stats.

So, where's your "100% sure" again?

 

Nothing in your linked post supports your claim that the german BB AP have a different Fuze time.

Its the same fuze time for close to every tech tree ship excluding the RN cruisers.

The only difference is that the German BBs have on some tiers lower calibers than their counterparts. But this isnt true for the whole line. Only Nassau, König, Gneisenau und Bismarck have the smallest BB caliber of their tier. The rest is higher or on par with their counterparts.

But the shell itself have the same fuze time like ships of any other BB line with the same caliber.

My point is still correct. The RN cruiser line is the only line in the game with an completely different fuse time. 

 

 I dare you to overpen a BB's armor above the belt.
Pro-tip, the only one that can is the Yamato and it's giant fuze delay linked to it's giant shells. And even then, it can only do so on thinner ships.
And again, that's a non-argument, since the same hit on an other ship would do the same damage. Only you wouldn't aim there, since you could just aim lower and get juicy citpens.
Don't try to turn the area that's not turtleback armored into a weakness, it's still stronger than other lines, and isn't the cause for increased damage on German BBs.

 Every T7+ BB gets only overpens if you hit the upper belt armor on BBs, except german BBs. Because the german BBs are the only high tier BBs who do have a armored upper belt with figures around 150mm. The rest has only around 32-40mm of upper belt armor, not enough to fuze BB shells. And even your linked reddit thread states, that the fuze time is the same for every gun above 7 inches, so your Yamato argument ist just wrong.

 Again, try playing against other German BBs without one of your own. You'll see just how much that turtleback armor bounces. Spoiler alert, it doesn't matter what pretty little image the game shows you when you hit, if it does 0 damage, it bounced. Which will happen when you hit there. The only overpen damage will be that stray shell hitting the superstructure, and only regular pen hitting the armored zone above the citadel.
I never said that I was detonated every third game.
But if you absolutely want to compare....Gneisenau has 257m of dispersion at 19.5km with a Sigma of 1.9
Myogi has 217m of dispersion at 15.7km. That's comparably MUCH worse, and that's before even considering that ships at tier4 are generally much smaller.
Just to compare, the Colorado has 226m of dispersion at 16.7km with a sigma of 2.0 I believe, making it roughly similar albeit a bit better than the Gneisenau.

 Gneisenau only has a sigma of 1.8. And no matter what, the Gneisenau is still the most inaccurate t7 BB currently ingame. Nagato has better dispersion and a sigma of 2.0 and Scharnhorst has close to the same base dispersion with a sigma of 2.0 aswell. And eventhough the turtleback bounces shells at closer ranges, every shell which bounces at the turtleback will result in a normal penetration. You can't overpen a german BB if you hit the upper or lower belt armor, in contrast to other BBs as explained above.

 

 No, I use hard facts.
German low tier BBs are better thanks to a mix of the excellent 105mm DPAA spewing out shells every 3 seconds at high velocity and range, and bigger 150mm AP guns that cruisers of tiers 4-6 loathe.
That's simply better than the anemic IJN 140mm in lesser numbers, and WAYYYYY better than USN 127mm in a lot of cases open mounts that get destroyed at the slightest HE hit in the viscinity.
And it only gets stronger at higher tiers, culminating at the Bismarck's ridiculous deluge that goes over 8km without even speccing it for secondaries.

 

As far as citadels go, you still get plenty of BBs, the only citadel you're missing are those "Hail Mary deflection plunging shots through the bow that penetrate the citadel from there", which as far as damage goes, is at best an anomaly.

 This is not really correct on higher tiers. The 105mm Secondaries on German BBs are good firestarters because of their high fire chance and fast ROF, but their pitiful when it comes to point pure damage. They simply fail to penetrate. Bismarck's 105mm secondaries can't penetrate ANYHTING on t8+ BBs, not even the superstructure and they can't penetrate DDs aswell as cruisers expect the superstructure. This is not the case with the IJN or USN high tier secondaries. They can penetrate BB superstructures, they can penetrate every armor plate on DDs(expect some 50mm plates onKhabarovsk). Though on cruiser there is no difference. So praising the 105mm secondaries and and shitting on the IJN or USN ones just shows, that you dont really understand the game mechanics.

 Looking at the average player, there really doesn't appear to be any less hero GG snipers in German ships that others.
Simply put, German ships survive longer, hence can fire more per match, explaining the higher damage.

As to the accuracy, I'm putting forward the notion that German guns are simply not inherently less accurate than others.
It may feel that way, but hop back in a Kongo and you'll notice that you'll be begging for you shells not to leave the barrel at a 10 degree angle. 

 But german guns are the most inaccurate, atleast on higher tiers. The facts support that and i dont understand how you can think otherwise in that regard.

 I'd answer your points one by one yet again, but you'd just answer all of them the same way yet again

"Nu-huh! The [x] isn't as good as you say!"

How about this: you have no experience with BBs past tier7 other than 26 battles in a Gneisenau (at 65% WR lulz), and here you are commenting on the maneuverability of ships you not only have never played, but seldom play against.
Which makes it hard for you to have any say in the matter, especially since you can say with a straight face that a ship with guns whose AP shells arm in less than 20m's worth of distance and less than 40mm of armor can overpenetrate the 33m beam of a North Carolina.

 You're flaming him for arguing about ships he never played, even though u have done the exact same thing. You only played up to the Bayern and played the Tirpitz. So you don't really know how the Bismarck secondarys behave or whatelse u said about high tiers. You said that the German ships have better maneuverability, which is simply not true. They have a slightly lower ruddershift, but mostly the worst turning radius in comparsion.

 

Edited by SCFighterr
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"Nu-hu, those minor points of contention makes German BBs completely fine"

 

 

I would answer to everything, but honestly, the stats speak for themselves.

2-3% WR more, and German BBs up to tier8 are more played than USN and IJNs BBs COMBINED.

 

I'm sure that's completely irrelevant, and there's no reason why that would be.

 

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I would answer to everything, but honestly, the stats speak for themselves.

2-3% WR more, and German BBs up to tier8 are more played than USN and IJNs BBs COMBINED.

 

I'm sure that's completely irrelevant, and there's no reason why that would be.

 

 

You know that the german players base is the biggest on the EU server right? Eventhough the German cruisers aren't really stellar they are still among the most played ones on the Eu servers. And eventhough the lower tier RN cruiser are pretty trash, they are still often played (stats are based on ships played over the last 2 weeks). So a ship being played often doesn't automaticly equals that the ship is OP!

And i like that i give you a lot of counterarguments to the stuff you said and you just completely ignore it :B

Edited by SCFighterr
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Verdius   

A buff? No.

I'd suggest to nerf the dispersion and sigma values across all BB lines to KM levels.

No, i'm not trolling and yes, i love my BBs.

 

KM BBs are already outperforming IJN and USN BBs at every tier but 6. Nerfing those while leaving the KM as is seems a bit counter productive. If anything I'd nerf KM BBs.

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You know that the german players base is the biggest on the EU server right? Eventhough the German cruisers aren't really stellar they are still among the most played ones on the Eu servers. And eventhough the lower tier RN cruiser are pretty trash, they are still often played (stats are based on ships played over the last 2 weeks). So a ship being played often doesn't automaticly equals that the ship is OP!

And i like that i give you a lot of counterarguments to the stuff you said and you just completely ignore it :B

 

You've been ignoring ALL my arguments for two pages, I figured I wouldn't bother to wall'o'text anymore.

After all, why bother pointing out that what 105mm HE bounces on, 127mm HE does too? Or that turning speed/time is more than just the two hard stats you're given in the port.

Or why bother explaining for the 20th time that you're pointing out that German BBs have a spot where they can get damaged (THE NERVE!), while other BBs in the same exact sitution would take twice the damage.

Why point out yet again the wild disparity in damage, survival, accuracy stats, WR, plane kills, xp gain and K/D when you're just going to shrug it off?

 

 

Also, ship balance should be down to a ****ing popularity contest now?

Sure, seems like a great idea.

Let's have British battleships literally be able to faceroll and still win. At the rate this game is going with BBs, that's what's going to happen.

 

 

PS: You're not making the point you think you're making.

When the most popular ships/hero/class/item is available and played by everyone, and it's still overperforming compared less popular choices, it's that the ships/hero/class/item is not balanced.

That's something you still haven't explained, and will still continue to gloss over with bad arguments that simply don't stand the test of time.

 

5 months ago, it was "they're new, only pro who free xp have them", now it's "everyone has them, so it's normal that they're doing well".

The two statements are mutually ****ing exclusive, yet both have been used. Funny how that's only a problem with the BB class, and more particularily German BBs.

 

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You know that the german players base is the biggest on the EU server right? Eventhough the German cruisers aren't really stellar they are still among the most played ones on the Eu servers. And eventhough the lower tier RN cruiser are pretty trash, they are still often played (stats are based on ships played over the last 2 weeks). So a ship being played often doesn't automaticly equals that the ship is OP!

And i like that i give you a lot of counterarguments to the stuff you said and you just completely ignore it :B

 

I love how you just completely ignored the very obvious point of Exocet's post, that the KM BB's are performing far better. Instead you disingenuously pretended that his argument revolved around the idea that because they were the most played they were the best. I'm guessing that's because you have no answer to the fact that the KM BBs are overperforming. It's not a matter of opinion, or a debate point in any way, it's a plain fact. We can argue about why and what should be done to fix them for forever and a day, but it's completely undeniable that they're overperforming.

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You've been ignoring ALL my arguments for two pages, I figured I wouldn't bother to wall'o'text anymore.

After all, why bother pointing out that what 105mm HE bounces on, 127mm HE does too? Or that turning speed/time is more than just the two hard stats you're given in the port.

Or why bother explaining for the 20th time that you're pointing out that German BBs have a spot where they can get damaged (THE NERVE!), while other BBs in the same exact sitution would take twice the damage.

Why point out yet again the wild disparity in damage, survival, accuracy stats, WR, plane kills, xp gain and K/D when you're just going to shrug it off?

 

 

Also, ship balance should be down to a ****ing popularity contest now?

Sure, seems like a great idea.

Let's have British battleships literally be able to faceroll and still win. At the rate this game is going with BBs, that's what's going to happen.

 

 

PS: You're not making the point you think you're making.

When the most popular ships/hero/class/item is available and played by everyone, and it's still overperforming compared less popular choices, it's that the ships/hero/class/item is not balanced.

That's something you still haven't explained, and will still continue to gloss over with bad arguments that simply don't stand the test of time.

 

5 months ago, it was "they're new, only pro who free xp have them", now it's "everyone has them, so it's normal that they're doing well".

The two statements are mutually ****ing exclusive, yet both have been used. Funny how that's only a problem with the BB class, and more particularily German BBs.

 

 

I didn't even lost a word on if the ships are OP itself or not, i just corrected your false statements. You make a claim which is undenieable true. That the german BBs perform better than their respective counterparts, however some of your reasoning behind these statements are just wrong and i corrected them. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

 

I love how you just completely ignored the very obvious point of Exocet's post, that the KM BB's are performing far better. Instead you disingenuously pretended that his argument revolved around the idea that because they were the most played they were the best. I'm guessing that's because you have no answer to the fact that the KM BBs are overperforming. It's not a matter of opinion, or a debate point in any way, it's a plain fact. We can argue about why and what should be done to fix them for forever and a day, but it's completely undeniable that they're overperforming.

Exocet said because they overperform, they are popular. I sad this doesn't ultimately has to be the case and proofed that underperforming ships can be popular aswell.

Furthermore i checked the ships i played myself and compared the König with the Kongo and the Fuso with the Bayern. I didn't include the USN ones because these were my first ships i played and therefore obviously potatoed in.

And honestly there isn't a lot of impactworthy difference.

And regarding the overall server stats.:

  • Nassau outperforms their counterparts significantly. Changes could be made.
  • Kaiser outperforms their counterparts significantly. Changes could be made.
  • Same with the König.
  • Fuso surpassed Bayern and NM is only slightly behind. No changes should be made.
  • Gneisenau is slightly better. Further investigation required.
  • Bismarck slightly better. As above
  • Friedrich. Only WR is really better. No nerf.
  • Yamato surpassed GK, only Monty drops off. No nerf.

On the lower tiers i tend to agree, because they outperfrom their counterparts in close to all stats quite heavily.

Though the higher in the tier we progress the less the German BBs perform better than their counterparts.

And especially on some ships its noteworthy, that every stat except the winrate is very similar. So you could argue that german BBs seem to be more optimal played than other BBs. i.e. less sniping and closer fights. Wich is further supported by the claim that eventhough the german BBs at t7+ have the worst dispersion, their hitratio is still on par.

So imo, lower tiers outperform their counterparts, t6+ seems fine.

But calling for a mass nerf of all german BBs seems wrong when looking at the stats.

Edited by SCFighterr

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Exocet said because they overperform, they are popular. I sad this doesn't ultimately has to be the case and proofed that underperforming ships can be popular aswell.

 

 

How you managed to completely fail to see my point is beyond me.

I'm saying the opposite.

They are popular because they overperform.

 

 

PS: you said that what I said was undeniably false, when in fact I showed you that 4 out of 9 ships of the branch have an arbitrary advantage in terms of fuze times, which helps them devastate cruisers even harder.

 

 

 And honestly there isn't a lot of impactworthy difference.

 

Yeah, 2% more WR, 15% more damage, 50% more battles played and 100 extra xp per battle for one ship is absolutely not impactworthy at all.

And that's just with potatos.

Good players have 3-5% more WR with German BBs than with respective tier BBs from tier7 to 10. Totally not a statistically significant number.

 

The entire subbranch of fast armored ships (7-10) is idiotic. 

Normally a ship is either average everywhere, or compensates a weakness with a strength.

Those German ships compensate 1 real weakness with 7 strengths. SO much so that the weakness if completely mitigated, and they just end up leading in damage anyways.

 

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I don't think Ive seen a Montana in a month!

 

I sunk half a dozen or so in the MS Craptastic aka Kagero this week. 

 

As for the German BBs, I can only tell from first hand experience up to the Bayern, since I can't bring myself to sail around in a fornicating Nazi ship, but they seemed alright to me. Sure, their guns will troll you at some point, but on the other hand your armor trolls everybody all the time. If in doubt, sail closer. 

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How you managed to completely fail to see my point is beyond me.

I'm saying the opposite.

They are popular because they overperform.

 

 

PS: you said that what I said was undeniably false, when in fact I showed you that 4 out of 9 ships of the branch have an arbitrary advantage in terms of fuze times, which helps them devastate cruisers even harder.

 

 

 

You: They are popular because they overperform.

I: Exocet said because they overperform, they are popular.

You know this is the same sentence, just with a different structure? The key point is still the same.

I could paraphrase my sentence really fast. ->Exocet said (because they overperform), they are popular because they overperform.

 

Okay regarding the fuze times again. Because you say so much false stuff in regards to that, that i got confused myself.

So now some pages back u linked me a reddit thread about the fuze times(

)

I dont know why you linked it, when you didn't even read it properly.

Because they clearly state, that the fuze time for every shell bigger than 7 inch(178mm) is the same.

What your trying to say is the fuze activation, not the fuze time. And the only ship were this really could make a difference is the König at T5. Because Gneisenau and Bismarck would overpen when others would overpen and they would pen, when others would overpen.(Here for simplification we ignore the shell speed).

Yeah, 2% more WR, 15% more damage, 50% more battles played and 100 extra xp per battle for one ship is absolutely not impactworthy at all.
And that's just with potatos.
Good players have 3-5% more WR with German BBs than with respective tier BBs from tier7 to 10. Totally not a statistically significant number.

The entire subbranch of fast armored ships (7-10) is idiotic. 
Normally a ship is either average everywhere, or compensates a weakness with a strength.
Those German ships compensate 1 real weakness with 7 strengths. SO much so that the weakness if completely mitigated, and they just end up leading in damage anyways.

 You based this on a statement i based upon my own stats. And i don't see how you could see there 15% more damage.

And yes good players often have better stats in German BBs than in the others, because they got them when they were already good and didn't need to learn the game and ships like the colorado were pretty bad back then.

For example look at Flamus stats. His german BB stats are far better than his USN BB stats, because the german BBs were the first line he grinded. Now on his alt he recently grinded to the izumo and he stats are on par with the German BBs on his main account. Only some slight difference here and there.

Same for my account.(I said that already, but hey.) My German BB stats are way better than my USN BB stats, because this was the first line i grinded when i still was new to the game and therefore not as good as i am now.

 

 

 

 

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We all looking to much to the stats and compair it with other ships who's stronger and who's weaker, iff im correctly its still the player what stear the ship,....

You can put the most terrible donkey in a insane OP ship and he will still get simply erased, put a high skilled player in a terrible ship and he preform better, then the actuall stats showing us, OP ships dont give you an 100% win and terrible ships don't say you will alwasy lose.

 

Last night i erased a full hp Tier 8 Bismark with my tier 6 Bayern by simply by dodging 1/2 of all his main gun salvo's, so does this mean the Bayern is a OP ship ? 
(Bayern is a 7.6km secondary build with a 18 points captain on it, rebought it recently back as i enjoy the ship).


 

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Voted no, I play German battleships only right now (slowly collecting the major vessels of the High Seas Fleet in my port) and I usually engage at mid-range since the armor and secondaries allow it. AFAIK, it's the IJN that wants to keep at long range.

 

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You obviously don't have any experiece with playing german bbs. Also you only ever complain about Battleships so it isn't surprising.

Ahahaha, NO.

I have a fair bit of experience in the German BB's and up to now (about T6) they have been the easiest ships for me to run.

Now, why do I complain about BB's? Well, I am primarily a CA/CL/DD player. BB's will rape my CA's and CL's from across the map before I can do anything whilst my DD's will almost never hit a Battleship because the torpedo's have been nerfed to oblivion.

Take this game: I was running my new T7 IJN Torpedo DD and spotted an enemy Battleship (that T8 American one) on his own, sailing in a straight line, so I did the obvious and launched a full spread at him. He ran on in his line, then suddenly turned whilst me torpedo's where still a good 2KM out, slipped between them, and then resumed his previous course. I could do nothing. Likewise, I have fired these torpedo's at the Tirpitz and Kaiser at ranges down to, and including, 4 KM and they have managed to dodge them. it does not matter if I am spotted or not, they WILL detect my torpedo's and they WILL turn into them.

And all because the useless, braindead BBabies whinged and wailed and whined because their precious BB was unable to sail unsupported and on its own i a straight line in the open sea without being punished for such blatant stupidity.

 

But I guess that you are one of those players whom believes that IJN torpedo's are stupidly over powered and should be reduced to 30 knots with a range of 6KM and a detectable range of 5KM.

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We all looking to much to the stats and compair it with other ships who's stronger and who's weaker, iff im correctly its still the player what stear the ship,....

You can put the most terrible donkey in a insane OP ship and he will still get simply erased, put a high skilled player in a terrible ship and he preform better, then the actuall stats showing us, OP ships dont give you an 100% win and terrible ships don't say you will alwasy lose.

 

Last night i erased a full hp Tier 8 Bismark with my tier 6 Bayern by simply by dodging 1/2 of all his main gun salvo's, so does this mean the Bayern is a OP ship ? 

(Bayern is a 7.6km secondary build with a 18 points captain on it, rebought it recently back as i enjoy the ship).

 

 

 

The fact that some players are rubbish doesn't change how well balanced a ship is. If a ships allows average players to play above average, which the stats would imply the German BBs do, then it's overperforming.

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