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theshadow9929

German BB Accuracy

GERMAN ACCURACY  

253 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the Accuracy of German Battleships be Buffed to atleast be COMPETITIVE?


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Markos   

 

Hahaha that "armor is only good against citadels but is weak otherwise" argument.

Because a ship going full broadside and taking 15k damage is SOOOOOO much worse than one doing the same and being quad citadel.

When a tier7 ship more effective armor than a tierX Montana or Yamato, something went horribly worse.

 

German BBs certainly outturn Russian cruisers, and give German cruisers a run for their money, in terms of turning.

 

Secondaries? Only with 15 pt captains, AFT and manual fire+ flags and modules? All my Konig's close quarters medals beg to differ. "Turn away from a persuing torpedo cruiser or DD, enjoy easy torpedobeats and easy kills with rapecondaries.

 

And because ALL of that wasn't balance enough, they have simply superior AP, that overall overpens less. That's why people claim to be able to do reliable damage against German BBs, they're using German BBs themselves. And instead of doing harmless bounces and overpens, they do regular damage inside the armor after bouncing on the turtleback.

15k on broadside bb with gneisenau or atleast 1 citadel is rarity so gneisenau is worse in such duel. They still can be citadeld i citadeld gneisenau with gneisenau so it is posible.

 

Turn circle is measured on top speed soo no. Only Shhors is coparable with gneisenau.

 

I have also several close quarters medals on Yorck, Hipper and Roon so they are also secondaries monsters or what? If you aer runnig away from persuing torpedo cruiser or DD you are also not helping your team to take caps. They can also just disengage. Also close quarters are just for last hit anyway.

 

There ap overpen just as any other bb gun (except Konig). Bounces from turtleback result in regular pen most of the time just don aim at water line. I also like how you skiped how unreliable there guns when you can miss 3/4 of shells under 10 km.

 

Don't take me wrong i dont think that german bbs are up but claims that they are without weaknesses that can be exploited are dumb.

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15k on broadside bb with gneisenau or atleast 1 citadel is rarity so gneisenau is worse in such duel. They still can be citadeld i citadeld gneisenau with gneisenau so it is posible.

You failed to grasp my meaning so hard, it's laughable. I said that German BBs take MUCH less damage through AP than others.

 

Turn circle is measured on top speed soo no. Only Shhors is coparable with gneisenau.

Turn *time* is measured with speed, and even then, German BBs tier7 and 8 turn faster than Russian CLs of equivalent tier, and in less distance to boot.

 

I have also several close quarters medals on Yorck, Hipper and Roon so they are also secondaries monsters or what? If you aer runnig away from persuing torpedo cruiser or DD you are also not helping your team to take caps. They can also just disengage. Also close quarters are just for last hit anyway.

Again, failure to see the point. German BBs have just vastly superior to the others. The fact that you have some secondary kills with cruisers doesn't change that fact. And you are helping your team when you're killing enemies, and especially DDs. Should they disengage, you still haven't lot anything, while they lost both HP and time. 

 

There ap overpen just as any other bb gun (except Konig). Bounces from turtleback result in regular pen most of the time just don aim at water line. I also like how you skiped how unreliable there guns when you can miss 3/4 of shells under 10 km.

No, they just don't. That's been proven through datamining that German BB AP has a lower fuze time than others, which does explain why you don't get as many citadels on compound armor ships, and why you can get triple citpen insta-kills on ships that have citadel plating on the exterior of the ship, while other guns might overpen. 

As far as the unreliability goes, inaccuracy is one of TWO weakpoints of the line, the other being number of guns which doesn't even affect half of the line. As far as their inaccuracy goes, it's all RNG anyways. I've been hit by Gneisenaus at 19km reliably, and missed immobile targets at 4km with an Amagi with 8/10 shells.

As far as bounces on the turtleback goes, nope sorry, but those result in BOUNCES with USN and IJN shells that don't plunge from over 12-15km, which you would know if you actually did play BBs that reliably meet turtleback idiocies, instead of trying to defend the one BB line you're grinding past tier6.

Aiming at the "magic spot" above the waterline will net you 10-15k of half repairable damage, when the same hit on an other ship gives you MONUMENTAL chances of getting citpens. Not even mentioning the fact that with the RNG accuracy, you might just miss the spot entirely and just get bounces and superstructure overpens.

 

Just as someone with more experience than you meeting tier7+ German BBs, I can say without a doubt that meeting a broadside Montana in an IJN 410mm armed ship grants me easily 30k damage, and I even once managed to do over 60k damage in a single salvo. The most I've ever gotten on a German BB broadside is 25k. Half of which he could repair. Tell me again how that's balanced?

 

TL;DR, you are FACTUALLY wrong about German BB AP being the same, and have anecdotal evidence about their inaccuracy.

 

Don't take me wrong i dont think that german bbs are up but claims that they are without weaknesses that can be exploited are dumb.

I'm not saying they're without weakness, I'm saying that they have ONE weakness.

Which would be fine, if they didn't overcompensate by being simply superior to two entire branches in most other ways.

 

 

 

Alas, all of this is futile, because I'm arguing with someone who doesn't want to nerf his 65% WR Gneisenau he's grinding as his highest tier BB, that being 9% better than his average WR in BBs.

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your off your tits if you think german bb line needs a accuracy buff

they are brawlers and as such need to actually get close to show their potential and if your missing at close range it aint the ships fault

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There ap overpen just as any other bb gun (except Konig). Bounces from turtleback result in regular pen most of the time just don aim at water line. I also like how you skiped how unreliable there guns when you can miss 3/4 of shells under 10 km.

No, they just don't. That's been proven through datamining that German BB AP has a lower fuze time than others, which does explain why you don't get as many citadels on compound armor ships, and why you can get triple citpen insta-kills on ships that have citadel plating on the exterior of the ship, while other guns might overpen. 

 

As far as the unreliability goes, inaccuracy is one of TWO weakpoints of the line, the other being number of guns which doesn't even affect half of the line. As far as their inaccuracy goes, it's all RNG anyways. I've been hit by Gneisenaus at 19km reliably, and missed immobile targets at 4km with an Amagi with 8/10 shells.

 

As far as bounces on the turtleback goes, nope sorry, but those result in BOUNCES with USN and IJN shells that don't plunge from over 12-15km, which you would know if you actually did play BBs that reliably meet turtleback idiocies, instead of trying to defend the one BB line you're grinding past tier6.

 

Aiming at the "magic spot" above the waterline will net you 10-15k of half repairable damage, when the same hit on an other ship gives you MONUMENTAL chances of getting citpens. Not even mentioning the fact that with the RNG accuracy, you might just miss the spot entirely and just get bounces and superstructure overpens.

 

I would be HIGHLY interested in a source for your lower AP fuze on german BB shells. Because im 100% sure, this isnt the case and the only ships which have a smaller fuze delay are the RN cruisers.

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Capra76   

Alas, all of this is futile, because I'm arguing with someone who doesn't want to nerf his 65% WR Gneisenau he's grinding as his highest tier BB, that being 9% better than his average WR in BBs.

 

Can we please stop talking about how OP KM BB are; if it carries on we might force WG into buffing the other BB lines.

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Niibler   

This thread was bad from the start but when I thought it couldn't be even worse then someone explains in detail why the KM BBs are UP.

Just...

LOL+Meme+(25).gif

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I would be HIGHLY interested in a source for your lower AP fuze on german BB shells. Because im 100% sure, this isnt the case and the only ships which have a smaller fuze delay are the RN cruisers.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/WorldOfWarships/comments/56vk17/looking_for_information_on_fuze_timersdelays/

 

Couldn't find the numbers again, but this is a good start.

Basically, having 380mm shells rather than 406mm+ means not only that the distance required to arm the AP shells is lower, but that the delay is shorter.

Same deal with 305mm AP shells of al nations which have a tiny fuze delay, which the Germans keep until tier 5, which is why you can citpen so effortlessly VMF cruisers with them.

 

I'd have to pay 5€ to gamesmodel3D for the full datamined stats.

 

So, where's your "100% sure" again?

 

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Markos   


You failed to grasp my meaning so hard, it's laughable. I said that German BBs take MUCH less damage through AP than others.

 

They rarely take citadels yes but they also take more regular pens than overpens. You sipmly can't overpen german bb when you hit just above belt armor.

 

Turn *time* is measured with speed, and even then, German BBs tier7 and 8 turn faster than Russian CLs of equivalent tier, and in less distance to boot.

 

Rudder shift time is better on all cruisers and also have better tuning circle than bbs so yes even worst tuening cruisers in game turn better than german bbs not surprisingly

 

Again, failure to see the point. German BBs have just vastly superior to the others. The fact that you have some secondary kills with cruisers doesn't change that fact. And you are helping your team when you're killing enemies, and especially DDs. Should they disengage, you still haven't lot anything, while they lost both HP and time. 

 

Only german bb with ''vastly'' superior sceondaries is Bismarck. Your secondary kills with konig are just as irrelevant because in kongo or new york you wouldn't need to hope that your secondaries kills them, you would killed them with your main guns. Also most of the time dds or cas would frce you away from caps. So they may lost some HP and/or time you would lose the game.

No, they just don't. That's been proven through datamining that German BB AP has a lower fuze time than others, which does explain why you don't get as many citadels on compound armor ships, and why you can get triple citpen insta-kills on ships that have citadel plating on the exterior of the ship, while other guns might overpen.

 

I learned something new today. thank you. Also can't nuke other bbs with citadels thats also one of there weak points.

 
As far as the unreliability goes, inaccuracy is one of TWO weakpoints of the line, the other being number of guns which doesn't even affect half of the line. As far as their inaccuracy goes, it's all RNG anyways. I've been hit by Gneisenaus at 19km reliably, and missed immobile targets at 4km with an Amagi with 8/10 shells.
As far as bounces on the turtleback goes, nope sorry, but those result in BOUNCES with USN and IJN shells that don't plunge from over 12-15km, which you would know if you actually did play BBs that reliably meet turtleback idiocies, instead of trying to defend the one BB line you're grinding past tier6.

 

You can't get bounces like that at worst it would be considert as overpen but most of the time it will be regular pen. Getting hit by Gneisenaus at 19km reliably? You also get detonated every thirt game? Dont make me laugh. Myogi is more reliable with its guns. I also grinded Gneisenau for Arp Myoko mission thank you very much. 


Aiming at the "magic spot" above the waterline will net you 10-15k of half repairable damage, when the same hit on an other ship gives you MONUMENTAL chances of getting citpens. Not even mentioning the fact that with the RNG accuracy, you might just miss the spot entirely and just get bounces and superstructure overpens.

 

This ''magic spot'' will aslo grant you more hit on average more hits than aiming for waterline when 1/3 of you shells hit water.
 
Just as someone with more experience than you meeting tier7+ German BBs, I can say without a doubt that meeting a broadside Montana in an IJN 410mm armed ship grants me easily 30k damage, and I even once managed to do over 60k damage in a single salvo. The most I've ever gotten on a German BB broadside is 25k. Half of which he could repair. Tell me again how that's balanced?

 

Yes broadside battleship easy = damage right. German battleships also take more damage when they are angled becuase of there big superstructure. Just as your anecdotal evidence i managed to citadel Gneisenau fraontali with Baeyrn so there is that.


TL;DR, you are FACTUALLY wrong about German BB AP being the same, and have anecdotal evidence about their inaccuracy.

 

Yes sure bit less overpens on bbs but also less citadels. That short fuze time goes both ways. Yet you are just as happy to use anecdotal evedice about there secondaries.

 

I'm not saying they're without weakness, I'm saying that they have ONE weakness.
Which would be fine, if they didn't overcompensate by being simply superior to two entire branches in most other ways.

 

Yes big superstructure is not weaknes, weak torpedo protection is not a weaknes, generalz biger size is also not a weaknes. You are funny.
 

 

 

 

Alas, all of this is futile, because I'm arguing with someone who doesn't want to nerf his 65% WR Gneisenau he's grinding as his highest tier BB, that being 9% better than his average WR in BBs.

 

My Fuso has same win rate and 2k less average damage than my Gneisenau so Fuso OP? Also German BBs are last bb line that I started so what a surprise i am doing bit better on them. Also mine 65% WR Gneisenau with only 23 battles really. Thats an argument? Why you also dont mention my 75% WR New York with 4 battles :D .

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Markos   

Your stats do not matter. Server stats matter. On EU Gneisenau his superior in WR, damage and Kills/Battle to all other silver Tier VII BB.

 

Did you even read my post. Exocet6951 used my stats as some sort of argaument I only pointed out his hypocrisy with it. Gneisenau is aslo worse survival so his argumet that they take almost no citadels makes them indestructible or even op is laughable. With bad positioning german bbs gets punished just as hard as any other bb.

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Rozbrus   

Well to be honest I also find something phoney about German BBs. Especially Gneisenau and Bayern. It almost seems there are some hidden stats somewhere as one time you score a perfect hit exactly where you aim and next time, two of four shells land close to target, one lands over and the last one hits a random part and overpenetrates. And it happens no matter what the range is. The problem, at least for me, with Gneisenau was that it only has six guns, four if you angle. So I would not say accuracy need buff, but it should definitely use more reliability and consistency in hits. But maybe I am just terribly unlucky and RNG gods hate me. Or I maybe I am simply bad. Which, to be honest, is the most probable cause.

Neverthelses there are also some arguments like excellent armor, torpedoes etc which made me to react. Well Bayern has quite a good armor. Gneisenau is made of paper and if you are targetted by more than one oponent, you can feel it. Yes, you are almost impossible to citadel. But you feel every shot nevetheless. Not to mention that my Gneisenau burned like a candle. Hell I feel safer in my New Mexico than I ever did in Gneisenau.

Another argument, torpedoes. Like seriously? You have them on one ship (I am not counting premiums), you have three of them with a "huge" range of 6 km and by now, even the biggest morons have learned not to get too close and if they do, how to evade them. It is just a kind of last resort weapon. So basicaly what you have is speed and a little better secondaries. Maybe they are even better with the lvl5 skill, but I am not that far yet.

I also wonder if everyone who sees these ships as OP plays solo or in divisions. Because it is hard to get close solo, when your team is made of campers who shoot at 20km + and refuse to move an inch. It is also hard to get closer solo when you see a Friedrich der Grosse turning aroiund and runnig away from a single DD... Yes, I had excellent games with Gneisenau where I randomly teamed with another Gneisenau or a DD or basicaly anyone who was not braindead. But these situations are more than rare.

 

 

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44smok   

A short list of ze German battleschiffs better than their tech tree counterparts (premiums excluded):

 

Nassau

Kaiser

Koenig

Gneisenau

Bismarck

Friedrich

Currywurst (yes, I dare to claim it)

 

So, you think they need better accuracy?

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My Fuso has same win rate and 2k less average damage than my Gneisenau so Fuso OP? Also German BBs are last bb line that I started so what a surprise i am doing bit better on them. Also mine 65% WR Gneisenau with only 23 battles really. Thats an argument? Why you also dont mention my 75% WR New York with 4 battles 

 

First of all, yes Fuso is insanely strong, I've said on multiple occasions that twelve 356mm guns with good sigma and dispersion is the closest thing ingame to a point and click adventure game.

 

You're not doing *a bit* better with them, you're doing on average 9% better with them. That's gigantic.

I didn't mention the New York for the same reason I didn't mention the ARP Hiei: stats with an amount of battle in the single digits are statistically worthless.

 

 

As for the main event...

You failed to grasp my meaning so hard, it's laughable. I said that German BBs take MUCH less damage through AP than others.

They rarely take citadels yes but they also take more regular pens than overpens. You sipmly can't overpen german bb when you hit just above belt armor.

I dare you to overpen a BB's armor above the belt.

Pro-tip, the only one that can is the Yamato and it's giant fuze delay linked to it's giant shells. And even then, it can only do so on thinner ships.

And again, that's a non-argument, since the same hit on an other ship would do the same damage. Only you wouldn't aim there, since you could just aim lower and get juicy citpens.

Don't try to turn the area that's not turtleback armored into a weakness, it's still stronger than other lines, and isn't the cause for increased damage on German BBs.

 

 

 

Turn *time* is measured with speed, and even then, German BBs tier7 and 8 turn faster than Russian CLs of equivalent tier, and in less distance to boot.

Rudder shift time is better on all cruisers and also have better tuning circle than bbs so yes even worst tuening cruisers in game turn better than german bbs not surprisingly

Nope, Shchors and Chapayev turn worse if they don't pile on the rudder shift mods, and even if they do, they don't bleed enough speed to turn faster than German BBs. Something you'd know if you played them, or saw them more regularily ingame.

 

 

Again, failure to see the point. German BBs have just vastly superior to the others. The fact that you have some secondary kills with cruisers doesn't change that fact. And you are helping your team when you're killing enemies, and especially DDs. Should they disengage, you still haven't lot anything, while they lost both HP and time. 

Only german bb with ''vastly'' superior sceondaries is Bismarck. Your secondary kills with konig are just as irrelevant because in kongo or new york you wouldn't need to hope that your secondaries kills them, you would killed them with your main guns. Also most of the time dds or cas would frce you away from caps. So they may lost some HP and/or time you would lose the game.

 You would know that the Kaiser, Konig and Bayern have amazing secondaries for their tier had you need free xp'd the latter two.

And the Gneisenau is no slouch with ELEVEN(!) twin 128mm DPAA, of course firing HE, making the previous secondary troll of tier 7, the Nagato, look like week old garbage.

 

 


No, they just don't. That's been proven through datamining that German BB AP has a lower fuze time than others, which does explain why you don't get as many citadels on compound armor ships, and why you can get triple citpen insta-kills on ships that have citadel plating on the exterior of the ship, while other guns might overpen.

I learned something new today. thank you. Also can't nuke other bbs with citadels thats also one of there weak points.

 You can still nuke other BBs, that's the fuze arming. What's harder is dealing with both decreased accuracy and on lower tiers worse AP ammo penetration. 

 

 

 
As far as the unreliability goes, inaccuracy is one of TWO weakpoints of the line, the other being number of guns which doesn't even affect half of the line. As far as their inaccuracy goes, it's all RNG anyways. I've been hit by Gneisenaus at 19km reliably, and missed immobile targets at 4km with an Amagi with 8/10 shells.
As far as bounces on the turtleback goes, nope sorry, but those result in BOUNCES with USN and IJN shells that don't plunge from over 12-15km, which you would know if you actually did play BBs that reliably meet turtleback idiocies, instead of trying to defend the one BB line you're grinding past tier6.

You can't get bounces like that at worst it would be considert as overpen but most of the time it will be regular pen. Getting hit by Gneisenaus at 19km reliably? You also get detonated every thirt game? Dont make me laugh. Myogi is more reliable with its guns. I also grinded Gneisenau for Arp Myoko mission thank you very much. 

Again, try playing against other German BBs without one of your own. You'll see just how much that turtleback armor bounces. Spoiler alert, it doesn't matter what pretty little image the game shows you when you hit, if it does 0 damage, it bounced. Which will happen when you hit there. The only overpen damage will be that stray shell hitting the superstructure, and only regular pen hitting the armored zone above the citadel.

I never said that I was detonated every third game.

But if you absolutely want to compare....Gneisenau has 257m of dispersion at 19.5km with a Sigma of 1.9

Myogi has 217m of dispersion at 15.7km. That's comparably MUCH worse, and that's before even considering that ships at tier4 are generally much smaller.

Just to compare, the Colorado has 226m of dispersion at 16.7km with a sigma of 2.0 I believe, making it roughly similar albeit a bit better than the Gneisenau.

 

 


Aiming at the "magic spot" above the waterline will net you 10-15k of half repairable damage, when the same hit on an other ship gives you MONUMENTAL chances of getting citpens. Not even mentioning the fact that with the RNG accuracy, you might just miss the spot entirely and just get bounces and superstructure overpens.

This ''magic spot'' will aslo grant you more hit on average more hits than aiming for waterline when 1/3 of you shells hit water.

 It will also grant you less damage than just hitting citadels on enemy ships.

 

 

 
Just as someone with more experience than you meeting tier7+ German BBs, I can say without a doubt that meeting a broadside Montana in an IJN 410mm armed ship grants me easily 30k damage, and I even once managed to do over 60k damage in a single salvo. The most I've ever gotten on a German BB broadside is 25k. Half of which he could repair. Tell me again how that's balanced?

Yes broadside battleship easy = damage right. German battleships also take more damage when they are angled becuase of there big superstructure. Just as your anecdotal evidence i managed to citadel Gneisenau fraontali with Baeyrn so there is that.

 Other ships have a superstructure too. Look at the bloody USN ships before trying to use "superstructures" as an argument. 

I managed to double citpen a Tirpitz with a Fuso once, it still doesn't change the fact that 30knot ships with more armor and more maneuverability on top of other advantages is just too much, and the stats almost 6 months in still reflect that.

 

 


TL;DR, you are FACTUALLY wrong about German BB AP being the same, and have anecdotal evidence about their inaccuracy.

Yes sure bit less overpens on bbs but also less citadels. That short fuze time goes both ways. Yet you are just as happy to use anecdotal evedice about there secondaries.

 No, I use hard facts.

German low tier BBs are better thanks to a mix of the excellent 105mm DPAA spewing out shells every 3 seconds at high velocity and range, and bigger 150mm AP guns that cruisers of tiers 4-6 loathe.

That's simply better than the anemic IJN 140mm in lesser numbers, and WAYYYYY better than USN 127mm in a lot of cases open mounts that get destroyed at the slightest HE hit in the viscinity.

And it only gets stronger at higher tiers, culminating at the Bismarck's ridiculous deluge that goes over 8km without even speccing it for secondaries.

 

As far as citadels go, you still get plenty of BBs, the only citadel you're missing are those "Hail Mary deflection plunging shots through the bow that penetrate the citadel from there", which as far as damage goes, is at best an anomaly.

 

 

 

I'm not saying they're without weakness, I'm saying that they have ONE weakness.
Which would be fine, if they didn't overcompensate by being simply superior to two entire branches in most other ways.

Yes big superstructure is not weaknes, weak torpedo protection is not a weaknes, generalz biger size is also not a weaknes. You are funny.

Big superstructure is common to everyone save for a selection of IJN ships.

Weak torpedo protection mitigated by not only hydro, but the ability to bleed speed so fast that you dodge torpedoes much more easily than other ships, something you stil haven't acknowledged, since you stick to the two numbers you see in port to make a decision, when there are so many more factors than that.

Generally bigger size? Only the tier10 is much larger,the others are on par with others of its tier. 

 

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Did you even read my post. Exocet6951 used my stats as some sort of argaument I only pointed out his hypocrisy with it. Gneisenau is aslo worse survival so his argumet that they take almost no citadels makes them indestructible or even op is laughable. With bad positioning german bbs gets punished just as hard as any other bb.

 

Do you want server average?

Fine.

 

On EU server the past 2 weeks.

Gneisenau is played more than the Nagato and Colorado combined, has 3k more average damage than the runner-up and 2% win more than the runner up. SO much for inferior firepower.

Just for lulz, Scharnhorst has 6% win more, and 9K damage more.

 

Bismarck is played almost as much as both the Amagi and NC combined, has 1.3% WR more than the already overperforming Amagi, clocking in at 53% WR. FIFTY THREE. Oh and it's still the highest in damage, despite being weaker in firepower as claimed. Oops. Incidentally, it has worse accuracy, yet has a higher main battery hit, ranking at 28% while the others trail at 25%.

 

Friederich? Played about 15% less the Iowa, but 60% more than the Amagi, there again the highest in damage, WR, main battery hit AND survival, despite "being huge and weak to torpedoes" and seeing a huge influx of the excellent USN DD torpedoes at those tiers

 

Finally the Currywurst, here againt topping out in WR, although the margin is razor thin with the Yamato. This is the first ship since the Bayern to not be the highest in damage per tier, making it the second of the entire branch to do that. Shameful. It compensates by still being the best at surviving, and being on the heels of the Montana in terms of plane kills per match.

 

 

So, what do the stats say?

That 6 months in, German BBs are still overperfoming.

Not because "only the pros who free xp" had them, but because, and I'm only going to repeat this once again although it should be self-****ing-evident, a branch of the fastest, more well armored and most maneuverable (save for tierX) ships with the best balance of firepower to damage cruisers and BB, the best secondaries, better than average to best per tier AA, armored decks that absorb 152mm HE at lower tier, and even up to 203mm HE in some cases,and some of them with hydro IS SIMPLY TOO STRONG.

 

Even their "weaknesses" are completely mitigated.

With less guns and less accuracy, they should be doing less damage, and yet they're topping out in damage, accuracy AND survival from tier3 to 9.

How the **** do you explain that?

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Even their "weaknesses" are completely mitigated.

 

With less guns and less accuracy, they should be doing less damage, and yet they're topping out in damage, accuracy AND survival from tier3 to 9.

 

How the **** do you explain that?

 

Could be that having good armor and less long range accuracy they tend to close in and brawl more than the others, thus scoring more/bigger hits to enemy ships?

No flame, i'm genuinely asking to a more expert player than myself :)

 

I have recently grinded the german BBs tree till Bayern, and found myself much more comfortable under 12-10 km.

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Could be that having good armor and less long range accuracy they tend to close in and brawl more than the others, thus scoring more/bigger hits to enemy ships?

No flame, i'm genuinely asking to a more expert player than myself :)

 

I have recently grinded the german BBs tree till Bayern, and found myself much more comfortable under 12-10 km.

 

Looking at the average player, there really doesn't appear to be any less hero GG snipers in German ships that others.

Simply put, German ships survive longer, hence can fire more per match, explaining the higher damage.

 

As to the accuracy, I'm putting forward the notion that German guns are simply not inherently less accurate than others.

It may feel that way, but hop back in a Kongo and you'll notice that you'll be begging for you shells not to leave the barrel at a 10 degree angle.

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Could be that having good armor and less long range accuracy they tend to close in and brawl more than the others, thus scoring more/bigger hits to enemy ships?

No flame, i'm genuinely asking to a more expert player than myself :)

 

I have recently grinded the german BBs tree till Bayern, and found myself much more comfortable under 12-10 km.

 

This. Anyone with a brain will look at german BBs and realise it's meant to get close and personal with enemies and play accordingly. I hate long range exchanges as a Bismarck/Gneisenau because the weak deck armor and inaccurate guns ensure I'll get the worst of it over time, but once I drop the range I'm dishing out at least as good as I'm getting if not more.

 

The flip side, however, is that other battleships also benefit accuracy-wise from less range so it can't be entirely explained by this. The thing is, the main reason why I think german BBs tend to overperform is the fact they're very easy to screw up in and get away with it. What other BBs are there that can afford to give the broadside to another battleship and be confident they won't get nuked by citadels? The other characteristics of the ships weren't nerfed enough to make up for this.

 

As ridiculous as it sounds, what in RL was a sub-optimal armor layout is in WoWS quite possibly the best by a wide margin. Long range fire is generally too inaccurate to compensate for the mid to short range advantages proper turtleback afford you.

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Markos   

 

First of all, yes Fuso is insanely strong, I've said on multiple occasions that twelve 356mm guns with good sigma and dispersion is the closest thing ingame to a point and click adventure game.

 

Fair point but I am pretty sure Fuso dosn't have good sigma.

 

You're not doing *a bit* better with them, you're doing on average 9% better with them. That's gigantic.

I didn't mention the New York for the same reason I didn't mention the ARP Hiei: stats with an amount of battle in the single digits are statistically worthless.

 

I don't think that ship with less than 50 battles is valid for any statistic.

 

As for the main event...

I dare you to overpen a BB's armor above the belt.

Pro-tip, the only one that can is the Yamato and it's giant fuze delay linked to it's giant shells. And even then, it can only do so on thinner ships.

And again, that's a non-argument, since the same hit on an other ship would do the same damage. Only you wouldn't aim there, since you could just aim lower and get juicy citpens.

Don't try to turn the area that's not turtleback armored into a weakness, it's still stronger than other lines, and isn't the cause for increased damage on German BBs.

 

You can overpen upper belt on quite big nuber of bbs. Try it you self Trainig Room with your hipper agains NC upper belt with AP enjoy overpens.

 

Nope, Shchors and Chapayev turn worse if they don't pile on the rudder shift mods, and even if they do, they don't bleed enough speed to turn faster than German BBs. Something you'd know if you played them, or saw them more regularily ingame.

 

Bleedig lot of speed also makes you an easier target you shold know that from playing your german CA.

 

 You would know that the Kaiser, Konig and Bayern have amazing secondaries for their tier had you need free xp'd the latter two.

And the Gneisenau is no slouch with ELEVEN(!) twin 128mm DPAA, of course firing HE, making the previous secondary troll of tier 7, the Nagato, look like week old garbage.

 

Lol I only free xp'd B hull on Kaiser and Konig and on Bayern  I only free xp'd engine so no i did not free ex'd them. If you wonder why i have soo few battles in bayern the answer is halloween camo. Kaiser, Konig and Bayern have mostly AP secondaries so no they are not amazig for there tier. These 128mm on Gneisenau are joke rather have the stock secondaries or no secondaries at all and have quadruple torpedo launcher instead of triple one.

 

 You can still nuke other BBs, that's the fuze arming. What's harder is dealing with both decreased accuracy and on lower tiers worse AP ammo penetration. 

 

It shows you dont play german bbs because you cant realy nuke any bb unles you use your torps on Gneisenua but thats all.

 

Again, try playing against other German BBs without one of your own. You'll see just how much that turtleback armor bounces. Spoiler alert, it doesn't matter what pretty little image the game shows you when you hit, if it does 0 damage, it bounced. Which will happen when you hit there. The only overpen damage will be that stray shell hitting the superstructure, and only regular pen hitting the armored zone above the citadel.

 

I hade also overpens more damge than they should or pens dealig no damage but that happens with all ships.

 

I never said that I was detonated every third game.

 

Geting reggulary hit by Gneisenau on 19 km is just as likely.

 

But if you absolutely want to compare....Gneisenau has 257m of dispersion at 19.5km with a Sigma of 1.9

Myogi has 217m of dispersion at 15.7km. That's comparably MUCH worse, and that's before even considering that ships at tier4 are generally much smaller.

Just to compare, the Colorado has 226m of dispersion at 16.7km with a sigma of 2.0 I believe, making it roughly similar albeit a bit better than the Gneisenau.

 

But if want this secondaries of ''doom'' you also sacrifase accuraci module. Also Myogi still feels more accurate than gneisenau.

 

 It will also grant you less damage than just hitting citadels on enemy ships.

 

 

 Other ships have a superstructure too. Look at the bloody USN ships before trying to use "superstructures" as an argument. 

I managed to double citpen a Tirpitz with a Fuso once, it still doesn't change the fact that 30knot ships with more armor and more maneuverability on top of other advantages is just too much, and the stats almost 6 months in still reflect that.

 

Tirpitz maneuverable lol. And what other advantages they have if they didn't have armor and speed they would be unable to compensate there inaccurate guns at all. Look at colorado it has armor but it don't have the speed to get in to brawling range befor it dies or game is already over so they compensated it with more accurate guns because before it was wery situational ship.

 

 No, I use hard facts.

German low tier BBs are better thanks to a mix of the excellent 105mm DPAA spewing out shells every 3 seconds at high velocity and range, and bigger 150mm AP guns that cruisers of tiers 4-6 loathe.

That's simply better than the anemic IJN 140mm in lesser numbers, and WAYYYYY better than USN 127mm in a lot of cases open mounts that get destroyed at the slightest HE hit in the viscinity.

And it only gets stronger at higher tiers, culminating at the Bismarck's ridiculous deluge that goes over 8km without even speccing it for secondaries.

 

IJN secondaries on low tiers are just as good and only Baeyrn and later bbs get 105mm, Gneisenau even loses them for these awful 128mm. Also 105mm secondaries counts as a open mount.

Yes Bismarck has nice range on them even without speccing for secondaries but ther guners are just as drunk as on any other bb or ca for that matter. Having 8 km range or even 15 km would not help you because they never hit anything (that does not mean that i want 15 km secondaries). Also bismarck is only bb worth speccing for secondaries.

 

As far as citadels go, you still get plenty of BBs, the only citadel you're missing are those "Hail Mary deflection plunging shots through the bow that penetrate the citadel from there", which as far as damage goes, is at best an anomaly.

 

Baeyrn has hard time to even citadel Kongo for example. That goes from nassau to gneisenau from my experience. They have hard time to score citadels against broadside of bbs from any other nation.

 

Big superstructure is common to everyone save for a selection of IJN ships.

Weak torpedo protection mitigated by not only hydro, but the ability to bleed speed so fast that you dodge torpedoes much more easily than other ships, something you stil haven't acknowledged, since you stick to the two numbers you see in port to make a decision, when there are so many more factors than that.

Generally bigger size? Only the tier10 is much larger,the others are on par with others of its tier. 

 

There super structure is biger factor when you want bring more of your pitiful number of guns to bear agains enemy most us bbs dont have that problem. Bleeding lot of speed in turn is also a disadvantage if you face more than one enemy. You become an easier target for next salvo of torps/shells. Tier 7 to tier 10 are longer than other bbs of same tier with tier 9 having similar size to yamato.

 

 

You should also drive german bbs first before you claim to be expert on them.

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[quote name='Markos]I don't think that ship with less than 50 battles is valid for any statistic...

 

You should also drive german bbs first before you claim to be expert on them.[/quote']

 

So sub-50 battles are too few for other people to draw any meaningful information from them but they're enough to make you an authority on the ships?

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Could be that having good armor and less long range accuracy they tend to close in and brawl more than the others, thus scoring more/bigger hits to enemy ships?

No flame, i'm genuinely asking to a more expert player than myself :)

 

I have recently grinded the german BBs tree till Bayern, and found myself much more comfortable under 12-10 km.

 

 

idk, but i suggest to repeat the stats analysis of the german BBs using only the top players stats (i'd do it, but i have not enough yime now), if they perform in par with other BB's top player your hypotesis could be right, if they still perform better, they would simply be OP.

 

[TBH, after six month of arguing about their OPness, these data should be known like an "ave maria" (italian for "memorized very well") by the people that keep talking about it]

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Markos   

 

So sub-50 battles are too few for other people to draw any meaningful information from them but they're enough to make you an authority on the ships?

 

It is too few for me i prefer to have atleast 100 battles to draw any conclusion but that is only for me. You can mesure it like you want but i thing that sub 25 battles statistic for can be highly inacurate. But do as you think. Anyway i am done with those essays.

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You should also drive german bbs first before you claim to be expert on them.

 

I'd answer your points one by one yet again, but you'd just answer all of them the same way yet again

 

"Nu-huh! The [x] isn't as good as you say!"

 

How about this: you have no experience with BBs past tier7 other than 26 battles in a Gneisenau (at 65% WR lulz), and here you are commenting on the maneuverability of ships you not only have never played, but seldom play against.

Which makes it hard for you to have any say in the matter, especially since you can say with a straight face that a ship with guns whose AP shells arm in less than 20m's worth of distance and less than 40mm of armor can overpenetrate the 33m beam of a North Carolina.

 

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I'd answer your points one by one yet again, but you'd just answer all of them the same way yet again

 

"Nu-huh! The [x] isn't as good as you say!"

 

How about this: you have no experience with BBs past tier7 other than 26 battles in a Gneisenau (at 65% WR lulz), and here you are commenting on the maneuverability of ships you not only have never played, but seldom play against.

 

Yet you are expert at German BBs just because you face them.

 

Which makes it hard for you to have any say in the matter, especially since you can say with a straight face that a ship with guns whose AP shells arm in less than 20m's worth of distance and less than 40mm of armor can overpenetrate the 33m beam of a North Carolina.

Yes it can hapen it shows your lack of experience with german CA ap.

 

TL,DR: Grass is always greener on the other side.

 

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[about him having a grand total of 80 battles with tier5+ German BBs, topping out at the Gneisenau]

Yet you are expert at German BBs just because you face them.


[about overpenetrating an NC's hull with a Hipper]

Yes it can hapen it shows your lack of experience with german CA ap.

 

 

 

TL,DR: Grass is always greener on the other side.

 

 

I also have a Tirpitz, may I point out. A Tirpitz with more battles than you Kaiser, Konig and Gneisenau put together, might I add.

 

Also, now you're just lying about what German 203mm AP can do. Or you're just mistaking hull penetration with bow/stern/superstructure overpens.

 

TL;DR : "pls no nerf the overperforming ships I'm grinding" and "the grass is always greener on the other side!" Said the high class high budget green as green can be golf course to the cheap put-put gold course.

Edited by Exocet6951
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