"Pocket battleship"

[SmartassNoob]

The next game update adds Admiral Graf Spee for testing. It'll be a tier 6 cruiser.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_cruiser_Admiral_Graf_Spee

 

So it'll have way too few firepower to fight a BB and way too long reload time to fight a DD. It's probably only going to be useful against big cruisers. Sort of like that tier 7 american cruiser Indianapolis. Then again with 4 torpedoes per side, it might just be able to take down a BB, if it manages to ambush one around a corner, or something.

 

Any ideas?

 

I predict it'll be somewhat useful for yolo-rushes: Just barely big enough to quickly take out a cruiser and possibly still maneuverable enough to out-turn a torpedo, or two and maybe still fast enough to drive away from a proper BB. ... *Checks wikipedia* 26 knots? ...What were the germans thinking? Just 4 more knots and it could have been a so much better ship.

[ColonelPete]

Yes, 30 knot 16k ton ships could be bought at any supermarktet in the early thirties.

 

• It has BB guns.
• What targets do BB shoot?
• Use the Graf Spee guns to shoot the same targets.
• Win

[Comodoro_Allande]

 *Checks wikipedia* 26 knots? ...What were the germans thinking? Just 4 more knots and it could have been a so much better ship.

 

Well, they added those knots, an extra triple turret and real armor, and they did the Scharnhorst-class...

[homegrownhero]

Yes, 30 knot 16k ton ships could be bought at any supermarktet in the early thirties.

 

• It has BB guns.
• What targets do BB shoot?
• Use the Graf Spee guns to shoot the same targets.
• Win

 

>what targets do BB shoot

 

water. they shoot water 70% of the time

[ColonelPete]

That is not their target.

One should know what target means...

[Diminios]

 

 26 knots? ...What were the germans thinking? Just 4 more knots and it could have been a so much better ship.

 

I guess they were thinking of using it as a long distance raider. Check the range, then compare it to the range of cruisers of other nations.

[SmartassNoob]

Yes, 30 knot 16k ton ships could be bought at any supermarktet in the early thirties.

 

• It has BB guns.
• What targets do BB shoot?
• Use the Graf Spee guns to shoot the same targets.
• Win

Oh yeah? What about the Kongo?

[Gnirf]

It was only through cheating that they could deliver 6-11 and 26-28 kts within treaty so 4 kts more were out of the question when the Deutschland, the first ship in class were designed.

Outstanding range was one of the great features. Gunnery wise the 11-inch guns outranged most of the battleships (not counting battlecruisers) of the era. The french battleships (remember France was the enemy when Germany designed these ships), Courbet/Bretagne had not anywhere near the gun range in its older 12/13,4 inch mountings. Against a slow BB in the middle of the Atlantic the Graf Spee would just drive away, its function was as Diminios states to raid merchant shipping.

 

An AMC= Armed Merchant Cruiser would be easy prey as Admiral Scheer showed against Jervis Bay.

 

So Graf Spees design is not matched against the WOWs meta at all. It will be interesting to see how she best performs - I think that she might have a high skill demand at least to perform really good, compared with other ships.

Especially when against T7/8 ships. Against faster BBs she is left with almost no counter,as live to fight another day is not part of WOWs meta. I suppose both BBs and DDs may see her as if not fodder so at least an inviting target?

 

Regardless I think I must have her.

[El2aZeR]

She's said to have pretty good accuracy (for BB guns that is), so now it really comes down to concealment. If it's garbage she'll get lit up by BBs before she can make her presence felt, damning her to play extremely passive in the early-midgame. If it's workable or good I can imagine her to be a very fun ship to play.

[Bismarck_chan]

Instant buy for me as soon as she comes out. I still remember watching Battle of the River Plate with my Grandpa when I was, I dunno, 10 or 12. Started me as a naval nerd.

[Synth_FG]

Aside from Hood, Renown and Repulse She was fast enough to run away from anything big enough to stand up and fight her and strong enough to take on anything fast enough to catch her 

[VC381]

Aside from Hood, Renown and Repulse She was fast enough to run away from anything big enough to stand up and fight her and strong enough to take on anything fast enough to catch her 

 

And the three (at the time) Kongos. Also I know Exeter got pretty beaten up at River Plate but so did Graf Spee, and her armor is unimpressive. I would think IRL one of the "full sized" heavy cruisers (e.g. Myoko) could go even with her. It would depend a bit on GS getting lucky hits before being smothered by the greater volume of fire.

[BCHood]

 

And the three (at the time) Kongos. Also I know Exeter got pretty beaten up at River Plate but so did Graf Spee, and her armor is unimpressive. I would think IRL one of the "full sized" heavy cruisers (e.g. Myoko) could go even with her. It would depend a bit on GS getting lucky hits before being smothered by the greater volume of fire.

 

Pocket Battleships were poor in engagements such as that. I've seen theorycrafting at another forum, between Deutschland-class and Prinz Eugen-class. The Deutschlands have an edge on long range, but on medium ranges, the spotting and target acquisition on the Prinz Eugen would offer a more accurate gunnery and would likely defeat the Deutschland. This of course all means nothing if there would be a lucky shot or two, so realistically the engagement could go either way. 

Likewise, that's Deutschlands against 8 inchers, when you scale down to 6 inchers you get bigger disparity, and bigger effective range difference, at the ranges the Deutschland would find comfortable, the 6 inchers would struggle to get a hit, and at these ranges the Deutschland's armor could make a difference (even if it is useless against 8 inchers) even if she would get hit.

 

However, in terms of convoy raiding, the Deutschlands were superior to any pre-ww2 built cruiser, but were far surpassed by later designs.

 

Strictly in game speaking, the datamining hint a very accurate guns (for what they are, BB guns, I'd still expect 8 inchers to be more accurate), with very good rate of fire, and a good concealment for a heavy cruiser. Drawbacks are slow speed for a heavy cruiser and belt armor which is citadel-able by any 8 inchers, basically. She'll be like Scharnhorst, a ship between two classes, lots of compromises that fit quite a peculiar playstyle. With only 6 barrels she will punish innacuracy, and with a thin belt armor she will punish lack of awareness, but I can see her going bow on until the opportunity shows itself, then wiggling her back and going for some citadels against other cruisers. DDs and BBs will love her, though.

[psl_58]

When PBS were designed [1923-26] the Germans didn't use the "Standard Displacement" that was the yard stick that allied treaties used.. The closest measure they had was " Light Displacement".

[MeTaLMooSe]

I concur with multiple posts above.

I would wish for;

 

Long range.

Good concealment.

Good accuracy.

Good RoF and traverse.

Poor armour.

Susceptible to module damage.

Lowish HP

 

It doesn't really matter as WG must be rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of overflowing coffers from the sales of this overhyped ship.

 

I know I'll be getting one if only for collecting purposes but I hope it turns out to be at least fun if not any form of OP.

[BuccaneerBill]

Aside from Hood, Renown and Repulse She was fast enough to run away from anything big enough to stand up and fight her and strong enough to take on anything fast enough to catch her 

 

If WW2 Naval combat was 1v1 duels this would be true, but its not. Cruisers etc tended to be in squadrons, and a squadron of cruisers could most definitely destroy Graf Spee. Just 2 Counties for example would be too much for Graf Spee on most occasions.

 

IRL the force he faced was not as strong as that but the Spee still ended up on the bottom of the ocean with no RN ships lost.

[SmartassNoob]

Some statistics here. Obviously subject to change due to testing.

[BCHood]

Shame we don't get to see her in actual battle, but the specs are useful. Thanks.

[psl_58]

British could never afford to waste two counties chasing PBS around the southern hemisphere. They are needed to man the GIUK gap and escort  BB/CV .

[BuccaneerBill]

Actually I think you will find over half of the Counties were looking for the Graf Spee at one point or another. Was supposed to be a County at River Plate but HMS Cumberland was refitting at Falklands. I mean, trade protection is like their primary role so its no real suprise.

 

 

[psl_58]

The mission of the raider's was to divert as much of the RN from the N.Atlantic, so I guess it was mission accomplished.

 

 

https://archive.org/stream/ReviewOfGermanCruiserWarfare19141918#page/n1/mode/2up

 

each raider dragged Allied fleets to hunt them down. 9-11 per HSK or LIGHT CRUISER.

 

 

Trouble is their was no fleet in the N.Atlantic to exploit this.

 

 

 

 

[SmartassNoob]

3 kills and 6 citadel hits and some kills with torps and he still thinks it's useless?

 

This other guy with 4 kills (one with tops) and 7 citadel hits likes it much better:

Looks like a useful thing for hunting cruisers to me. And maybe ambushing BBs around island corners. Appearance-wise it kind of reminds me of the Hermelin (too bad the gunfire isn't up to that legacy), so I guess it's more similar to the Mikasa, but with out BB armor and with faster reload.

[El2aZeR]

3 kills and 6 citadel hits and some kills with torps and he still thinks it's useless?

 

Well, if you consider 2 of those kills were against broadsiding potatoes and 1 against a potato that thinks smoke makes him invulnerable, yeah. Same in the other video, really.

Graf Spee as a T6 ship is bound to get up-tiered a lot, very often landing in T8 matches (as mentioned in both vids). The only thing that helps her (as demonstrated) is that most people don't know that T8 cruisers are invulnerable to her guns when facing bow on. She can't gun them down with HE either like the Scharnhorst, she has too few barrels and too long of a reload for that.

She'd be a great cruiser hunter at the former T4-6 MM bracket, but with the current system I can see why people won't recommend her.

[SmartassNoob]

By your logic you should never play any ship, because there will always be something that out-performs it in some way. For example: Do you think the Tenryu is a bad ship because it has few guns and nearly no armor? Obviously how competent the enemies will be is only a matter of luck, but in my experience it's one of the (potentially) greatest ships in the game. BBs ignore it as a low threat until they get torped and DDs better have some support if they dare to approach.

[El2aZeR]

Do you think the Tenryu is a bad ship because it has few guns and nearly no armor?

 

Well, yes. 

 

Really, though, what I meant to say is that Graf Spee would be fine if she'd meet T5-6 ships only, but with the current MM system she's bound to get outclassed heavily in a good majority of games she'll be in. If you think she'll be a fun ship to play for you, who am I (and all others) to tell you not to buy it? But judged solely by the numbers she does seem rather lacking.