The BB oversaturation

[Horin728]

I know they said that they are working on it, but could be get any details? Im getting sick of having 5-6 BBs per side in every TX battle I get into. Cruisers feel so fragile, you can't do anything but hope the enemy BBs wont notice you, but they will. Oh yes they will. Why would they fire on a BB, even though there are 3 of them spotted nearby? They can overmatch your armor, so why bother, just point those guns in vague direction of any cruiser and RNGsus will take care of the rest... Especially Yamatos. "HUR ME FIRE BIG DAKKA ANGLE NO MATTER!"

 

It takes one look at the queue to find out that there are approx 2x the BBs than any other class followed closely by DDs (which is reasonale since they should be the "counter." For a cruiser captain the strength is in numbers and DPM, which there is none since there are usually 1-2 cruisers per side...  I have tried the steering mod 3 and I can see the argument to use it, however sacrificing concealment is unacceptable for me, since it is the only surefire way to avoid damage, or at least having a shot at relocating when you choose the wrong side of a map at the start of the game (meaning the side with more BBs). 

 

I know that there will be probably a lot of complaining that this is not true, that it's more of a DD oversaturation, but that is a effect, rather than a cause. With less BBs to hunt and more cruisers to worry about the amount of DDs will subside.. And yes, I am having a time of my life in my Gearing, however I really enjoy the cruiser gameplay more, now with the added benefit of masochism.

[_cosmo]

A few topics further down: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/67559-lets-disable-limit-for-bb-participating-in-battle/

This'll be fun 

[Horin728]

A few topics further down: http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/67559-lets-disable-limit-for-bb-participating-in-battle/

This'll be fun 

 

Yea I remember the tirpitz plague... 

[Ubertron_X]

Again?

[Syrchalis]

BBs = iconic = popular = largest playerbase = WG wants to please them, so BBs borderline OP = optimal strategy to make money

 

WG is not Bioware, Blizzard or Riot Games. They care about money first and the game being great second. That the latter leads to the former hasn't arrived at their executive level yet.

[Kazomir]

Again?

 

And again and again and again. Until WG nerfs BB survivability. Yes.

 

That was the way BBabies nerfed CVs and IJN DDs to death. Next patch reduces theit fire chance once again, detriment to how much they whine.

 

We do it their way.

[Beach_bum]

They should have a more active battle selection system where one can see what ships are needed so players could pick the right ship for a specific battle. Or they could put a % cap on the type of ships that are selected by the player base. Or maybe offer higher awards for using lesser used ships.

 

[Horin728]

They should have a more active battle selection system where one can see what ships are needed so players could pick the right ship for a specific battle. Or they could put a % cap on the type of ships that are selected by the player base. Or maybe offer higher awards for using lesser used ships.

 

 

Well getting artificial caps on everything would solve the problem but not the cause... It is better to give player insentive to play a certain class rather to force them via caps...  The main problem right now is that BBs are pretty much untouchable by cruisers, unless you have torpedoes (germans have to suicide zao is laughing) or are stealthy enough (zao once again) and maybe a division of Des Moineses can bring a BB down with their combined DPM, but other than that I don't know. You may say that it is supposed to be that way, a lone cruiser should die to a BB and yes I agre but the problem is, that there are not enough cruisers in the battle, so they can' form a wolfpack... and since BBs love to snipe at max range they can't get close enough to be effective... Once again I refer to the DM, try to aim at 18 kliks (still the 1st one in line) with 13 sec shell flight time..

 

On the other hand cruisers get extremely punished by BBs. Armor angling doesn't matter, overpens don't happen and manueverability is ok ish at long ranges... Even to kill a DD a cruiser usually needs 3-4 salvos (talking about tX now), while a cruiser can get deleted in one... 

 

Again?

 

Yes, Again! And again and again, until high tier cruisers are playable. Especially the USN ones... They are having a horrible time, because their main role - AA protection is not needed. The german BBs have crazy AA raitings and seeing a CV ingame is a miracle of itself... Oh I miss those days where there were 3 BBs per side and CVs didn't have to have a mirroring MM... My Des Moines ate planes like a boss... Now I have it respeced for full concealment to survive...

[Elenortirion]

today, my takao has been citadeled by gneisenau....

 

would not be any kind of problem if not the fact that I was perfectly bow on to said gneisenau and he was closer than 11km from me instead of at 11km

 

and I won't even start on what kurfurst is doing to her and at what angles >.>

 

and thing is....

thats one of those "OP" cruisers

I'm really scarred to think how others must be working like when "those OP" have such an issues.....

 

so I'd say that cruisers needs a solid buff [direct or indirect] to survivability against BBs

[Kartoffelmos]

But BBs are not easy to play, they are just iconic, just like Shimakaze was the most iconic IJN vessel!

[cro_pwr]

 

would not be any kind of problem if not the fact that I was perfectly bow on to said gneisenau and he was closer than 11km from me instead of at 11km

 

 

Don't be perfectly bow on, be slightly angled so his shell hits the side of your ship

And then pray for dispersion not kicking in.

And overmatch.

And normalization.

And god knows what xD

[Comrad_StaIin]

not a problem at all

[Horin728]

not a problem at all

 

 

 

Sure I get theese kind of games too once in a while, but most of the time it is completely different, plus a smoke is a big factor...

 

Today I had a game with 5 BBs per side, 3 cruisers per side and the rest of them were DDs... After first 4 minutes there were 6 dead ships, try to guess to which class all of them belonged...

[_cosmo]

well, the main idea behind cruisers is not to get shot at, they were never meant to resist bb shells. atago is "op" not because of its armor, but because of it's camo and firepower. in cruisers it pays to be very aware of what's around and know when to shoot and when to run away. other then a moskva, you do not want to trade shots with battleships. if i get deleted in my cruiser, i can 90% of the cases show you what i did wrong. and i don't see the point of saying it's the fault of the cruiser when i didn't play it according to its abilities. there are no st louises at high tiers so far. and i hope there will never be.

[Admiral_noodle]

But BBs are not easy to play, they are just iconic, just like Shimakaze was the most iconic IJN vessel!

 

I actually think it's a bit of both. People like battleships because they are battleships! But people also dislike being destroyed in seconds. 

 

The problem is you can potato for longer in a BB. You'll be as useless as you would have been in a cruiser, perhaps more so. But people will think they have a better chance of a good game in a BB. 

 

And they are probably right because it's a self fulfilling prophecy. As there are more BBs potato cruiser players are increasingly likely to be nuked. 

 

Even I'm hesitant to play cruisers because of the annoyance of losing all your health very rapidly. I should probably focus more on cruisers to avoid forgetting how to play them. 

 

#capbbstofour

[Horin728]

well, the main idea behind cruisers is not to get shot at, they were never meant to resist bb shells. atago is "op" not because of its armor, but because of it's camo and firepower. in cruisers it pays to be very aware of what's around and know when to shoot and when to run away. other then a moskva, you do not want to trade shots with battleships. if i get deleted in my cruiser, i can 90% of the cases show you what i did wrong. and i don't see the point of saying it's the fault of the cruiser when i didn't play it according to its abilities. there are no st louises at high tiers so far.

 

Yes the idea is to have MANY cruisers around so the probability of getting shot is lower - forming a wolfpack... try that with 2 cruisers per side.. You can't gank up on BBs, they gank up on you and since they have basically the range to hit you even before you can hit them the conclusion is clear...

 

To the concealment.. I run all my high tier ccruisers with maxed out concealment and while it helps, one DD is enough to screw you, since even maxed out DM will be detected at 10.6 kliks... and once you're seen and now when there's spotting damage, the BBs will eat you once more... 

[Horin728]

 

I actually think it's a bit of both. People like battleships because they are battleships! But people also dislike being destroyed in seconds. 

 

The problem is you can potato for longer in a BB. You'll be as useless as you would have been in a cruiser, perhaps more so. But people will think they have a better chance of a good game in a BB. 

 

And they are probably right because it's a self fulfilling prophecy. As there are more BBs potato cruiser players are increasingly likely to be nuked. 

 

Even I'm hesitant to play cruisers because of the annoyance of losing all your health very rapidly. I should probably focus more on cruisers to avoid forgetting how to play them. 

 

#capbbstofour

 

the only redeeming thing is that I'm getting my dreadnought awards in almost any battle if I survive with my Hindenburg... 

[Admiral_noodle]

The other problem when cruisers are low in number is good cruiser play then becomes frustrating. You can't do wolf pack actions any more and have to be a support ship for your BBs. For many ships that means sitting around not doing much for large parts of the game especially if your cruiser has short range and your BBs want to stay away from each other. That's less of a problem now with Bismarck etc trolling around, you can usually follow one of those around. But I've had games in a hipper before I got the range upgrade where I got no hits at all. There was simply no way to get close enough without unacceptably risking the ship. And we had the caps. So what was the point?

[Syrchalis]

@Kaseko

 

Kutuzov has 19km range - it was a T6-8 battle, you want a cookie? Now try doing the same in a T8-10 battle with Mogami or New Orleans. And not just one lucky game, play 50 and post your average results.

 

I actually think it's a bit of both. People like battleships because they are battleships! But people also dislike being destroyed in seconds. 

 

The problem is you can potato for longer in a BB. You'll be as useless as you would have been in a cruiser, perhaps more so. But people will think they have a better chance of a good game in a BB. 

 

And they are probably right because it's a self fulfilling prophecy. As there are more BBs potato cruiser players are increasingly likely to be nuked. 

 

Even I'm hesitant to play cruisers because of the annoyance of losing all your health very rapidly. I should probably focus more on cruisers to avoid forgetting how to play them. 

 

#capbbstofour

So, even you admit that playing cruiser is annoying because every idiot can shoot in your general direction and even if you do everything right you sometimes just randomly lose 50% of your health, just like that.

 

There is something called "power to skill ratio" - and BB gives too much power, regardless of skill. Bad players perform too well in BBs, mediocre players perform too well in BBs and good players perform too well too. Compare that to CV, where bad players perform too bad, mediocre players perform too bad and the top players perform too well. That's why CV balance is so difficult, but for BB it's pretty easy - straight up nerfs. The points where they could take a beating are clear.

 

Versatility - cruisers should be the super versatile allrounders, but right now BBs are far superior in that regard.

AA - again, something cruisers should excel at, not BBs.

Rudder shift, turning cirlce and gun traverse - power creep is strong in these, every new BB added had those values increased. What happened to ships like Warspite? Bad rudder shift, very good turning circle, very bad gun traverse - unplayable? Nah, I would say it's probably one of the best T6 ships in the game.

Range - why do BBs need 5-10km more range than cruisers? No really, why this much? Only makes camping possible. BBs don't need to have shitty range, they can outrange cruisers by a few km, but why this much?

[Admiral_noodle]

@Syrchalis - yes. But I don't think this is a problem when there are fewer BBs (2-3 max 4) on the enemy team because you can use your skill by avoiding being in the sights of two BBs at the same time, disengage, kite, go somewhere else. I see the problem as too many BBs per game, not a problem with BBs per se.

 

Although I would agree that BBs AA is a tad too strong and *some* could do with a rudder nerf here and there, but in general they aren't "OP".

 

But when they outnumber cruisers the balance falls apart.

 

And WG know this.

[Syrchalis]

@Syrchalis - yes. But I don't think this is a problem when there are fewer BBs (2-3 max 4) on the enemy team because you can use your skill by avoiding being in the sights of two BBs at the same time, disengage, kite, go somewhere else. I see the problem as too many BBs per game, not a problem with BBs per se.

 

Although I would agree that BBs AA is a tad too strong and *some* could do with a rudder nerf here and there, but in general they aren't "OP".

 

But when they outnumber cruisers the balance falls apart.

 

And WG know this.

 

And how do you propose to reduce BB population? Cap and make them wait like CV players? The outrage will detonate the forum. Introduce "BB only battles" to siphon BBs from the pool?

 

I think making them less noob-friendly and less versatile, so that you can properly abuse their weaknesses is the best choice.

 

Simply because I think it's not fair that BBs don't have a strong weakness, like other classes. DDs are super prone to detonate or pseudo-detonate (getting twoshot by cruiser salvos or BB penetrations) - cruisers are super squishy and visible too. BBs are what? Slow? Nope. Weak to torpedoes or CV attacks? Nope. Sure they have tiny weaknesses, but they can't be properly exploited, while the weaknesses of other classes are incredibly easy to exploit. Radar or CV attacks absolutely ruin DDs. BB AP absolutely destroys CAs, but what wrecks BBs equally hard? Nothing.

 

The one thing that did punish BBs like others classes was old Essex/Midway, but no that was too much for the BBabies.

[Elenortirion]

And overmatch.

 

impossiburu, it seems that dem big guns [420mm?] does not care about angle at all....

 

I would have survived few of urfursts ohkoing me if they were not overmatching dat belt >.>

 

it's slightly out of topic though as topic is about too much of BBs not BBs having too easy against cruisers.....

 

yes! too many! can't angle against 6 BBs at the same time! [from cruiser perspective]

NO! BRING MORE OF DEM! MY TORPEDOES NEEDS MORE FOOD! [from destroyer perspective]

been too long since last match in BB/CV to tell how do I feel about this situation with them....

 

EDIT:

And how do you propose to reduce BB population? Cap and make them wait like CV players? The outrage will detonate the forum. Introduce "BB only battles" to siphon BBs from the pool?

 

 

same way as I was suggesting to deal with legendary "too many DDs on high tier"

 

buff cruisers so they serve more interesting and FUN role than trying to farm any damage before BBs noticing you

 

revamp CVs so they are interesting and will come back with reliable population on high tiers

[Admiral_noodle]

Nerfing BBs so they aren't fun to play isn't the answer either.

 

I would release more lines of cruisers and preferably not ones with a "high skill cap"...

 

Or incentivise cruiser play using the economy. Similarly you could make BBs cost more to play.

[Beach_bum]

 

Well getting artificial caps on everything would solve the problem but not the cause... It is better to give player insentive to play a certain class rather to force them via caps...  The main problem right now is that BBs are pretty much untouchable by cruisers, unless you have torpedoes (germans have to suicide zao is laughing) or are stealthy enough (zao once again) and maybe a division of Des Moineses can bring a BB down with their combined DPM, but other than that I don't know. You may say that it is supposed to be that way, a lone cruiser should die to a BB and yes I agre but the problem is, that there are not enough cruisers in the battle, so they can' form a wolfpack... and since BBs love to snipe at max range they can't get close enough to be effective... Once again I refer to the DM, try to aim at 18 kliks (still the 1st one in line) with 13 sec shell flight time..

 

On the other hand cruisers get extremely punished by BBs. Armor angling doesn't matter, overpens don't happen and manueverability is ok ish at long ranges... Even to kill a DD a cruiser usually needs 3-4 salvos (talking about tX now), while a cruiser can get deleted in one...

 

The problem isn't the ships for me but just the number of types when one plays as two or three good cruiser drivers will take down a big old battleship with fires and just eating away at it's hit points.

 

It's not all roses with battleships either as yesterday I got two one hit kills on other battleships (I actually got one hit the very first salvo on a undamaged battleship) and got killed twice like that too (I am a rubbish player...) and carrier aircraft are a nemesis as well as destroyer (not many of them around though).

 

I'm only on Tier 5 so I don't know how it is on higher tiers though.

 

[cro_pwr]

Btw, to the guy posting the Kutuzov game...
That was easy mode, not enough BBs in game.
I have a real gem for you.