Baltimore Buffs? - Be Careful What You Ask For [179k damage]

[Pupu_prpr]

I'm one of the weirdoes that actually really enjoy the Baltimore, even though I agree it is probably the weakest T9 CA.
While I do agree with the Baltimore needing a buff, it really needs to be a very slight one in terms of reload, because this ship could extremely easily become overpowered. It already is nowhere as weak as people make it out to be and in the right situation it can be surprisingly strong!

 

[NoirLotus]

Wasn't WG considering to move Baltimore to T8 ?

[0ddys]

As far as i know yes, as soon as they split the CA and CL, but there she will lose heal, the 3 mio. module and get her historical rate of fire of 4rpm (15s reload) and without these thinks she will be a good T VIII ship (but she maybe will not lose the "super heavy" round (funfact Zao has heavier shells)).

 

For T IX we get a design with 4 x 3 203mm guns, but otherwise will be similar to the Baltimore.

[piritskenyer]

As far as i know yes, as soon as they split the CA and CL, but there she will lose heal, the 3 mio. module and get her historical rate of fire of 4rpm (15s reload) and without these thinks she will be a good T VIII ship (but she maybe will not lose the "super heavy" round (funfact Zao has heavier shells)).

 

For T IX we get a design with 4 x 3 203mm guns, but otherwise will be similar to the Baltimore.

 

I really think they should put the Wichita as a T8 and keep Balmer as T9. 

Her rate of fire being buffed can be considered semi-historical due to the USN practice of "cue-balling", which was basically ramming the projectiles with a sudden thrust and letting inertia take them in instead of steadily ramming the round home. That made it possible to shave time off the loading times.

 

[triumphgt6]

Yes, but Flamu can make anything look OP! The Baltimore and NO put me off T8 and above for 6 months!You could put him in a bathtub and armed only with a sponge and a sharp piece of soap he would get a Kraken!

[Viktor_Lima]

A very nice showcase match, but it opens with two egregious mistakes by the enemy Des Moines. Very true, he underestimated Flamu, but this kind of misplay just shouldn't happen. I'm currently on the New Orleans and really the biggest trouble is too few shells for taking on DDs effectively. A Mogami wrecks them so much harder, because of the Japanese HE.

 

I completely agree that buffs should be taken in very small incremental steps. A 1 second reload buff probably would do the trick on New Orleans and Baltimore, but in general the T8 cruisers need more help than the T9s. They're almost as likely to end up in T10 matches and lack repair or sufficient HP to come back from even a freak hit early on.

[Pupu_prpr]

Depends on the T8 Cruiser. A heal on the NO and the Mogami would probably be a very good balancing factor. Chapayev however is already very strong without the heal, and the Kutuzov certainly doesn't need it. Hipper could also use the heal, the current meta really doesn't favor that ship at all.

 

One of the biggest issues with ending up uptiered in a T8 cruiser (if you are one of the mentioned) is the map design as well. High tier maps are honestly quite terribly designed, with huge open spaces that promote very passive play with long range sniping unless you're a dd or a cruiser capable of smoking up to ensure survivability. Huge open maps on ships like the NO/Mogami/Hipper are a pain as even if you turn and angle against incoming BB volleys you will take freak citadels from weird angles, and with the lack of heal there's really no way to recover from it.

 

So my optimal design for higher tier balance would be more cover offered on the maps to allow other ships besides DDs to actually contest caps and prevent the boring stale-mates that often occur, but as a stopgap measure giving the heal to the NO/Mogami/Hipper would be very welcome.

[Viktor_Lima]

I completely agree on the map design. Each time I play a low tier match, I'm happy about how well designed "New Dawn," "Big Race" and the more recently added maps are. There are places to go for cruisers, ambushes to lay and in general possibilties to turn the battle into several smaller engagements with tactical decisions. On most of the high tier maps there is a tendency of T9+ BB to just zone you out from squaremiles of sea through flanking fire.

 

Incidentally the open spaces do not make for enjoyable matches for the  BB either, as they can be highjacked by the free roaming DDs that flood them with torpedoes.

[Trainspite]

Just as long as a buff to Baltimore can get the WG hates USN whingers to shut up on the NA forums.... And those that want Baltimore down tierred. 

I would suggest a buff to the stock gun option as well, to at least bring it up to par with NO, and preferably a RoF buff to both options. 

 

I doubt they can really go through with trying to make Balti a tier 8, especially since she doesn't need a whole lot to bring her up to tier 9 standard. 

[T_H_0_R]

You are not alone Flamu, I too loved my time in Baltimore. Great looks, AA and good maneuverability with IMHO the best armor of the whole cruiser line... I too found Baltimore more tankier than Des. That is why I consider it the best armored USN cruiser. Did not check their armor or compare it, but I have a feeling a lot of the subjective impression that I have is because Des is larger.

 

There is just one problem, once you get Des to work (I struggled for a while), there is no going back.

[ThePurpleSmurf]

You are not alone Flamu, I too loved my time in Baltimore. Great looks, AA and good maneuverability with IMHO the best armor of the whole cruiser line... I too found Baltimore more tankier than Des. That is why I consider it the best armored USN cruiser. Did not check their armor or compare it, but I have a feeling a lot of the subjective impression that I have is because Des is larger.

 

There is just one problem, once you get Des to work (I struggled for a while), there is no going back.

 

As a matter of fact i've unlocked the DM just today, after a not so pleasant grind through NO and Balti. I was curious about the armor too and i think you might be right about the Balti is tankier. The DM citadel is significantly bigger and a good chunk of it is above the waterline whereas the Balti citadel is almost completely below the waterline and does not cover the whole broadside from rear to front gun turrets.

[S4h3L]

Yes, but Flamu can make anything look OP! You could put him in a bathtub and armed only with a sponge and a sharp piece of soap he would get a Kraken!

You mean original Furutaka? 

[Carmignac]

Recently I unlocked either Baltimore and DM. I really love them. They somehow force you to improve your playstyle and they give their best in brawling situations against every type of ships. I still not have a 15 point captain on both the ships, but still they are very fun to play.

 

Baltimore is actually tankier than the DM: its citadels is very small and underwater so it's somehow more forgiving. It's the same difference between the NC and the Iowa, where the NC has a small underwater citadels while the Iowa has above the water level. You have only to know that, and playing accordingly.

[deadly_if_swallowed]

Main caliber guns reload time of several USN cruisers has been decreased in order to make them more attractive as damage dealers:

• Erie (from 7 seconds to 6 seconds);
• New Orleans (from 14 seconds to 12 seconds for top guns);
• Baltimore (from 13 seconds to 10 seconds for top guns);
• Des Moines  (from 6 seconds to 5,5 seconds);

 

So with reload mod Baltimore can get down to Hindenburg level - 8.8 secs. Even I think this may be a bit too stronk, and I am very curious about the Public Test results

[Beardroid91]

Baltimore finally became decent to play and able to dish out the damage now, and there still is the gun arc's to balance it out, it is right where it needs to be.

 

Also the Roon has the same reload time, and people isn't crying to much about that, so i think this buff will be for good the Baltimore stil eats a ton of damage and also has 7K less HP than the Roon and the Roon got torps and troll armor so it seems very balanced to me. But they might have to think about buffing the Ibuki abit, but then again the Ibuki got very good torps and can stealth fire at long range, while Baltimore can't be usable at +16 km as the arc's make the shells hang in the air for days.

 

But Baltimore does feel very strong now, and might actually jump from the worst to the best tier 9 cruiser in one go.

[Syrchalis]

What puts me off of the USN CA line is the shell arcs and the shell speed. I honestly think that cruiser gameplay would be a lot better if all cruisers would get a buff in those. Being unable to citadel other cruisers from anything but "pretty close range" or "absolutely perfect broadside" makes it really boring. Also you can only throw HE at BBs which is very ineffective and boring too (plus it makes BBs whine). I mean, BBs shooting AP at DDs is a whole other story. It should suck, but all know how DDs lose 50-75% of their HP when they get hit by a BB salvo, even from longer range due to one lucky penetration.

That's probably why I love Moskva so much. You can actually make use of AP at longer ranges and broadside BBs need to fear you, even if you aren't less than 5km from them.

 

Cleveland is the CA I stopped because honestly, those shell travel times are just garbage. Pensa and NO seem like really sub-par cruisers. They have nothing going for them compared to the other lines and lack things like torpedoes to make up for it. Not even their AA is that good. If Pensa had radar at least.

[Comodoro_Allande]

What puts me off of the USN CA line is the shell arcs and the shell speed. I honestly think that cruiser gameplay would be a lot better if all cruisers would get a buff in those. Being unable to citadel other cruisers from anything but "pretty close range" or "absolutely perfect broadside" makes it really boring. Also you can only throw HE at BBs which is very ineffective and boring too (plus it makes BBs whine). I mean, BBs shooting AP at DDs is a whole other story. It should suck, but all know how DDs lose 50-75% of their HP when they get hit by a BB salvo, even from longer range due to one lucky penetration.

That's probably why I love Moskva so much. You can actually make use of AP at longer ranges and broadside BBs need to fear you, even if you aren't less than 5km from them.

 

Cleveland is the CA I stopped because honestly, those shell travel times are just garbage. Pensa and NO seem like really sub-par cruisers. They have nothing going for them compared to the other lines and lack things like torpedoes to make up for it. Not even their AA is that good. If Pensa had radar at least.

 

Pensacola and New Orleans have decent arcs, nothing compared to Cleveland ones. It's on Baltimore and Des Moines when the shells go to the Moon and back, but that AP hurts even more at range

[Aotearas]

 

Pensacola and New Orleans have decent arcs, nothing compared to Cleveland ones. It's on Baltimore and Des Moines when the shells go to the Moon and back, but that AP hurts even more at range

 

The great thing about the lazy arcs is that combined with the superiour normalization angles for the US AP shells is that at sufficiently distant range, you effectively have close to 90° straight down plunging fire through the less well-armoured deck plating. With my Indianapolis I can regularily citadel equal tier cruisers like the Myoukou at max range. Not sure if the Indy gets the superheavy shells that Baltimore and Des Moines have which may be why I get those results but damn, those AP shells are nasty!

[MadGelo]

Pensacola AP shells seems rather meh.

He does almost the same damage, even when shooting broadside and you get fires and more destroyed/damaged modules. 

Only pays off when you manage to get citadels on other cruisers. 

When do the AP get good on the US cruiser line?

[piritskenyer]

 

The great thing about the lazy arcs is that combined with the superiour normalization angles for the US AP shells is that at sufficiently distant range, you effectively have close to 90° straight down plunging fire through the less well-armoured deck plating. With my Indianapolis I can regularily citadel equal tier cruisers like the Myoukou at max range. Not sure if the Indy gets the superheavy shells that Baltimore and Des Moines have which may be why I get those results but damn, those AP shells are nasty!

 

She gets the regular Mk 19 mod 6 AP that Pepsi and Nolan get.

 

Pensacola AP shells seems rather meh.

He does almost the same damage, even when shooting broadside and you get fires and more destroyed/damaged modules. 

Only pays off when you manage to get citadels on other cruisers. 

When do the AP get good on the US cruiser line?

 

They ARE good. They require some more careful aiming and work, but when you walk away with 20+ citadels from a game, you'll see why it's worth it

[El2aZeR]

The great thing about the lazy arcs is that combined with the superiour normalization angles for the US AP shells is that at sufficiently distant range, you effectively have close to 90° straight down plunging fire through the less well-armoured deck plating.

 

A myth. Angle of fall for the 8"/55 Mk 15/16 guns (Balti/DM) are as follows according to navweaps.com:

 

 

I don't remember the normalization for US ships, but even considering that it should be impossible to overcome auto-bounce. That and the shell would only be able to penetrate 51mm of deck armor at 16,82km. That would not be enough to penetrate Myoko's deck and citadel roof (albeit barely).

 

It's more likely that your Indianapolis is just punching straight through Myoko's flimsy belt and/or barbette armor considering it still retains 127mm belt armor penetration at 17,83km. That Myoko has her citadel above the waterline in some parts certainly won't help her either.

 

(To put things into perspective, Balti and DM are technically speaking capable of penetrating Moskva's 155mm belt at slightly below 19km and Myoko's 102mm belt near their maximum rl range of 26,15km, ranges both will never reach ingame)

[Aotearas]

 

A myth. Angle of fall for the 8"/55 Mk 15/16 guns are as follows according to navweaps.com:

 

 

Sure as hell doesn't look like ~50° when I see those shells come down, but who knows how inaccurate the game renders the shell trajectory relative to player perspective at different ranges. More likely WG's decision to cut into gun ranges screwed up the workings of ballistics something fierce. It's either the visuals that look misleading or the real performances of guns are simply not scaling well for their ingame representation, but I swear it looks off.

 

Question though: how comes the Indianapolis can't beat more than 51mm deck armour at 16.82km, but 127mm belt armour at 17,83km? Are you using different (conflicting) sources for those numbers or does the game somehow assign different levels of protection per mm of armour for different armour types (which would be new knowledge for me).

[El2aZeR]

Sure as hell doesn't look like ~50° when I see those shells come down

 

Nononono, you got it wrong. Check the range (for 50°+ you'd need a range of over 25km). WG accurately modeled shell trajectories after real life values, but capped, not compressed them. Visuals are extremely misleading when watching from your own perspective, but are actually accurate. For example, Cleve shells look like a almost 90° fall at max range, right?

 

Well, this is how it looks like from the receiving end:

 

 

Aotearas, on 02 February 2017 - 01:19 AM, said:

Question though: how comes the Indianapolis can't beat more than 51mm deck armour at 16.82km, but 127mm belt armour at 17,83km?

 

Because the angle of fall for the shell would be too shallow, therefore increasing the effective thickness of the deck armor and preventing the shell from properly "biting" into it (if it doesn't just straight up bounce like in the game). Deck armor penetration increases with the distance, as a longer range will make the angle of fall steeper.

 

In general few ships in WoWs are capable of making use of plunging fire because the ranges are capped and auto-bounce exists. And none of them are effective at it as the range it requires to overcome the 30° auto-bounce angle is way too high.

 

For example a NC would require a range of 27,43km to make her shells fall at 34.1°, defeating auto-bounce (not accounting for normalization because again I forgot what the values are). That's achievable with the range upgrade and spotter but utterly impractical.

[Dropman12]

El2aZeR: So long story short:

What we call plunging fire is not plunging fire. Its just visual efect, where you see vertical move of your shells but not horizontal, thus it looks like plunging fire.

Long range penetrations do not come from deck penetrating but belt/superstructure penetration. German BB get citadel hit not because of deck penetration but simply because of belt penetration under such angle where turtleback armour does not autobounce.

Yet there is no real impact on gameplay, right?

 

 

Right?

[VC381]

Guys stop talking about normalisation. As I learnt, that got changed so all guns of the same size use the same angle. Where US 8" cruisers have a unique advantage is their auto-bounce is at 22.5 degrees not 30, and their chance of bounce is at 30 degrees not 45.

 

I agree plunging fire isn't a thing, but all the US 8" shells can and will citadel (through the belt) an enemy cruiser of the same tier and usually higher too at max range and angled. If you claim otherwise you either have 0 experience of these ships or are presenting "alternative facts". And the AP hits very hard on BBs at most ranges and angles as well. Of course it's not 100% reliable once the angles start building up but the capability is there. If you feel US cruiser AP at T7+ is weak, I'm sorry but the problem isn't with the shells.

 

Also I don't get the arc complaints. It takes a little time to learn the lead and you need to predict turns a bit better but that's it. Really not that hard.

 

While we're on the subject of game ballistics, do we know if angle of fall is properly accounted for? I mean, we obviously don't have enough plunging fire to get auto-bounce on belt from that. But for example if a target is showing 60 degrees off the bow, does the game actually incorporate the angle of fall to give the correct 3-dimensional impact angle (probably closer to 65 degrees in this example depending on range, too lazy to maths it), or does it just take 60 degrees?