Current Balance Issues with DD Torpedoes

[Rayk_2]

Hello,

 

I wanted to discuss and suggest a solution about a balance issue of DD torpedoes (excluding Carrier Torpedoes, obviously).

I played many games with Japanese Destroyers, my currently highest one is Fubuki and I noticed there is quite the big balance issue in high-tier regarding torpedoes.

 

To list a few factors for this Issue in high-tier:

-Long reload time

>IJN Destroyer

T6 73-76 sec 14.600-16.266 max dmg

T7 76-82 sec 16.266-17.233 max dmg

T8 82-90 sec 17.233-20.966 max dmg

T9 104-120 sec 20.966-21.366 max dmg

T10 131-153 sec 20.966-23.766 max dmg

compared to T5 47 sec 14.400 max dmg

 

-"A spotted torpedo will remain spotted until it either hits something, whether it is a ship or landmass, or runs out of fuel. Aircraft and ships can spot torpedoes from a set range based on the torpedo's range and size"

-Experienced Players ( more zic-zac driving, less/none tunnelvision)

-Hydroacoustic Search

-Faster driving speed

-Torpedo Protection and high HP, which requires you to get more torpedo hits, which is hard considering the points mentioned above

 

How this affects DD gameplay:

-Long waiting time to actively participate in the battle (for IJN Destroyer)

-Torpedoes get spotted many kilometers before it even reaches a ship, so easily avoidable

-DDs trying out risky maneuvers which often end in them being sunk before they can even shot

-Less fun and rewarding to play destroyer on high-tier

 

I found this (http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/25332-torpedo-reload-time-should-change/) on the American Forum as well, which states the same Issue, however I would like to discuss a good solution for this so I would like to hear some feedback about it.

 

I checked the damage and torpedo numbers mentioned in that American Forum Thread with the WoWs wiki and they are the same except Kagero Torpedos do20966 max damage instead of 20967.

 

For possible solutions I would present those currently:

 

1. Reduce reload time -20% and reduce torpedo damage -10% starting at Tier 6

>IJN Destroyer:

T6 58-61 sec 13.140-14.639 max dmg

T7 61-66 sec 14.639-15.510 max dmg

T8 66-72 sec 15.510-18.869 max dmg

T9 83-96 sec 18.869-19.229 max dmg

T10 105-122 sec 19.229-21389 max dmg

compared to T5 47 sec 14.400 max dmg

 

2. *Removed this Point now with the update 0.5.15, because I saw how bad it is to have a Torpedoboat with 10km torpedo range while all High Tier ships can spot you in High Tier Matches with the also increased spotted range on Water with the update 0.5.15*

 

3. Slightly reduce reload time -10% and remove "A spotted torpedo will remain spotted until it either hits something, whether it is a ship or landmass, or runs out of fuel. Aircraft and ships can spot torpedoes from a set range based on the torpedo's range and size"

>IJN Destroyer

T6 66-68 sec

T7 68-74 sec

T8 74-81 sec

T9 94-108 sec

T10 118-138 sec

compared to T5 47 sec

 

4. Remove "A spotted torpedo will remain spotted until it either hits something, whether it is a ship or landmass, or runs out of fuel. Aircraft and ships can spot torpedoes from a set range based on the torpedo's range and size"

 

----------------------

The main Issue is the "A spotted torpedo will remain spotted until it either hits something, whether it is a ship or landmass, or runs out of fuel. Aircraft and ships can spot torpedoes from a set range based on the torpedo's range and size".

It makes little to no sense that this is there for Torpedoes, since it renders most mid to long range torpedo salvo useless.

 

Also if you don't understand what I mean by removing this, I mean that when it's removed you can only see Torpedoes when they are in someones Torpedo Spot range. So once they come out of that Torpedo Spot Range they will not remain spotted anymore.

[HyoukaYukikaze]

There is rebalance coming with line split, atm it looks like just further nerfs.

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/66854-ijn-dds-in-pts-0515/  - here is thread about that

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

ye another dd asking for buff lol

[Oely001]

I do not really understand what your suggestion is but I would favour less (=longer reload) but stronger and less visible torpedos. Torpedos should be some kind of "silver bullet" and nothing to cook torpedo soup with.

[The_Great_SCH]

With the current meta I would say that torpedoes are not OP in any way, not saying a BUFF in needed, but they are not OP. As a DD player, how focuses on caps/spotting and general fleet leading, I find myself having really good games with wins, top 3 in games but really low damage. If i get lucky and my torp walls hit the enemy i get dmg, but if my map-control intended torps do not hit but do their job (make enemy sail away/boradside for my fellow BB's) i do not do damage. 

 

Problem is that USN DD's have an advantage ofer IJN DD's, they have GUNS. So if i can find a good spot to use my smoke and spam HE, maybe get a fire or two i do dmg, if i have to do other things to insure the win, i cannot fire my guns.

 

So i would say that torps are not as string as many straight-sailing BB's tend to say, at high tiers they should know about the WASD hacks in order to avoid them. I am really lucky if i can manage to ambush an unsuspecting ships sometime,other than that, i just want to help my team win. 

[Mayv]

Problem is that USN DD's have an advantage ofer IJN DD's, they have GUNS. So if i can find a good spot to use my smoke and spam HE, maybe get a fire or two i do dmg, if i have to do other things to insure the win, i cannot fire my guns.

 

And some even have better torpedoes.

[The_Great_SCH]

 

And some even have better torpedoes.

 

Yeah, but as I've stated you have to be lucky to hit with torps if you are launching them for map controlling purposes, or am I doing something wrong? 

[th3freakie]

I understand where you are coming from, but you must also understand that F2P MMOs are all about constantly changing, so the playerbase doesn't get bored. And WG/Lesta have decided the way forward with WoWs and to replace the Torpedoboat IJN DDs and CVs with more pew-pew gun-duel ships. They're just a better business it seems.

 

So the old style of Torpedo fun ain't coming back, just accept it. Get a BB and enjoy it.

[Black0rchid]

Well I play both IJN and USA DD lines both at tier 8/9/10, yesterday I had the pleasure of encountering in game one of the new IJN DD's the Akizuki (think thats the name) and well unless they really buff it before release .... 

 

Due to the last nerfs IJN dd's had the whole line is sub par. The specialization they had got nerfed and they fell into no mans land, what I mean is, they were stealth and ambush fighters, the guns were merely there to play defensively and as a last resort as they increased detection range and as we know although they have reasonable speed they don t maneuver all that well, specially when compared with the American counterparts.

 

So ... now some bright minds decided they want to make them into gunboats... I am all for it, but not the way they want to go arround it, it makes no sense.

 

The only way to go around it imho is to divide the line as being done creating a new branch, that new branch would receive defensive torps only similar to the ones already in existence (since the new ships almost all have less launchers....they are less powerfull) and with a buf to the guns making them the prime armament to use. The line that already exists would remain as is with maybe a little buff to the torps giving them less spoting range, meaning that torpedoes would be spoted closer (20% less spoting would be enough). This makes sense taking into account the buffs BB (turn rate....a NC can dodge 72 Kn torps thrown at 4 km) and CA's had and the introduction of Radar and the general spread of Hydroacustics.....

 

That is what would be reasonable, I don t want an OP line I want a balanced engaging fun line......

[Nechrom]

"A spotted torpedo will remain spotted until it either hits something, whether it is a ship or landmass, or runs out of fuel. Aircraft and ships can spot torpedoes from a set range based on the torpedo's range and size"

 

That's the only thing which needs to be fixed. It makes little sense and is just a crutch. If the BB is aware of his surroundings he can utilize the detection of torpedoes when they are actually detected, the other players who wait until they get those free torpedo warnings pop up on the UI shouldn't get automatic torpedo spotting for something which happened much much earlier.

Whether an invisible fighter, an invisible DD or whatever is between the torp launching DD and his target is completely random from his perspective. Pure dice roll and should not effect his hit chance as much as it does right now.

 

[John_of_Bothwell]

I have a problem with torps in general. That is that in real life most DDs and cruisers carried only the torps in the tubes with no reloads. Some had reloads, but not unlimited... This makes the use of torps something like a shotgun - blast away and hope for hits sometime during a game. In real life DD drivers were much more careful where and when they used the torps, as they were a 'one shot' weapon.

 

[Niibler]

I have a problem with torps in general. That is that in real life most DDs bluuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

 

 

You sure there are no problems with the other classes/guns and how they are in real life?

This is not Battleship Simulator 2016.

[MercFHire]

For tier 9 and 10 you have to take into account that you also get a Torpedo Reload upgrade as well, stack that with the captain skill for torpedo reload and the reload is perfectly fine.

And from Tier 7 I believe, you can sacrifice smoke for the ability to quickly reload torpedoes.

 

Honestly there is nothing wrong with the torpedo reload rate, any higher and you could spam them.

[Fizzy_Odin]

Only buff to DD WG can make is to speed up torpedo, maybe to 70/80kn, now we have DDs that are almost as fast as torpedo, and most t7+ BBs are at 30kn+ and cruiser almost 35kn - and torps are 55kn-65kn so if you drop torps 9-10km away BBs and cruiser will be who know where after that 1 min, only ih he is rail binocular player you have no chance of geting intended shoot - you can only get lucky shoot..

[Fino_93]

ye another dd asking for buff lol

 

 

Why shouldn't they ask it? 

 

They are some of the worst performing ship in t6-7-9-10...

[EsaTuunanen]

I have a problem with torps in general. That is that in real life most DDs and cruisers carried only the torps in the tubes with no reloads. Some had reloads, but not unlimited... This makes the use of torps something like a shotgun - blast away and hope for hits sometime during a game. In real life DD drivers were much more careful where and when they used the torps, as they were a 'one shot' weapon.

In real life BBs didn't carry onboard magician capable to stopping flooding, emptying flooded compartments and repairing hull damage caused by torps.

Even if torpedo bulkheads held water out from citadel damage to outer hull and flooded external compartments caused extra drag...

With counter ballasting used to correct listing just increasing drag.

And if damage control managed to plug the leaks stresses from higher speed maneuvers could easily restart flooding.

 

So unlimited torps should be fair trade for unlimited damage control and how much buffed ease of gunnery is.

[John_of_Bothwell]

I have a problem with torps in general. That is that in real life most DDs and cruisers carried only the torps in the tubes with no reloads. Some had reloads, but not unlimited... This makes the use of torps something like a shotgun - blast away and hope for hits sometime during a game. In real life DD drivers were much more careful where and when they used the torps, as they were a 'one shot' weapon.

 

 

In real life BBs didn't carry onboard magician capable to stopping flooding, emptying flooded compartments and repairing hull damage caused by torps.

Even if torpedo bulkheads held water out from citadel damage to outer hull and flooded external compartments caused extra drag...

With counter ballasting used to correct listing just increasing drag.

And if damage control managed to plug the leaks stresses from higher speed maneuvers could easily restart flooding.

 

So unlimited torps should be fair trade for unlimited damage control and how much buffed ease of gunnery is.

 

That's fine for a BB hit by 1/2 TT. A cruiser, destroyer or CV hit by a salvo has no chance. Particularly when it might be the 4th/5th salvo fired by that DD or CV in a battle.

 

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

I'm only playang ijn dds and they are good as they are now. No need for buffs or nerfs if played correctly. Exhibit a: http://wowreplays.com/Replay/22612

[Kittykami]

Buff the guns, not the torps. Pelting BBs to death with high fire chance HE makes them far more salty than just instantly deleting them with torps ;3

[Fino_93]

I'm only playang ijn dds and they are good as they are now. No need for buffs or nerfs if played correctly. Exhibit a: http://wowreplays.com/Replay/22612

 

 

No cherry picking please...

 

Stats says that they are UP, in the tread from RU devs says they are among the worst ships in 4 of the 5 higher tier, ao please stop to threat the ting as an opinion that can be discussed...

[t0ffik1]

Well OP i suggest you make a comparision of IJN torps vs US now that will be fun... specially starting tier 7

and then you compare also other of the 2 nations dd's capabilities ...

 

Dont exepct IJN DD's to get rebalanced as WG has US bias on DD's 

[Rayk_2]

I do not really understand what your suggestion is but I would favour less (=longer reload) but stronger and less visible torpedos. Torpedos should be some kind of "silver bullet" and nothing to cook torpedo soup with.

I made 3 possible solutions (suggestions) for this balance Issue at the end of the thread start.

Torpedoes are already strong but they often don't hit anyone the higher the tier after T5, hence why I had reduce reload time and reduce either damage, range or the once spotted torpedoes = always visible part of the game.

 

With the current meta I would say that torpedoes are not OP in any way, not saying a BUFF in needed, but they are not OP. As a DD player, how focuses on caps/spotting and general fleet leading, I find myself having really good games with wins, top 3 in games but really low damage. If i get lucky and my torp walls hit the enemy i get dmg, but if my map-control intended torps do not hit but do their job (make enemy sail away/boradside for my fellow BB's) i do not do damage.

You should know that if you can only hit something with luck with your main weaponry (while other classes have no such problem), that something is probably wrong about how that main weaponry works.

 

I understand where you are coming from, but you must also understand that F2P MMOs are all about constantly changing, so the playerbase doesn't get bored. And WG/Lesta have decided the way forward with WoWs and to replace the Torpedoboat IJN DDs and CVs with more pew-pew gun-duel ships. They're just a better business it seems.

 

So the old style of Torpedo fun ain't coming back, just accept it. Get a BB and enjoy it.

How are those pew-pew gun-duel ships different and better than their US counterpart then?

Old style of Torpedo? I also play every ship class except Carrier.

 

"A spotted torpedo will remain spotted until it either hits something, whether it is a ship or landmass, or runs out of fuel. Aircraft and ships can spot torpedoes from a set range based on the torpedo's range and size"

 

That's the only thing which needs to be fixed. It makes little sense and is just a crutch. If the BB is aware of his surroundings he can utilize the detection of torpedoes when they are actually detected, the other players who wait until they get those free torpedo warnings pop up on the UI shouldn't get automatic torpedo spotting for something which happened much much earlier.

Whether an invisible fighter, an invisible DD or whatever is between the torp launching DD and his target is completely random from his perspective. Pure dice roll and should not effect his hit chance as much as it does right now.

This is indeed the main Issue of the whole missing frequently on high tier with Torpedoes.

Gonna add that as seperate suggestion to the thread start, after all if that would be removed people would have to communicate more about incoming torps to BBs.

 

For tier 9 and 10 you have to take into account that you also get a Torpedo Reload upgrade as well, stack that with the captain skill for torpedo reload and the reload is perfectly fine.

And from Tier 7 I believe, you can sacrifice smoke for the ability to quickly reload torpedoes.

 

Honestly there is nothing wrong with the torpedo reload rate, any higher and you could spam them.

Only Hatsuharu and Kagero can choose to pick that instead of smoke.

The main problem is they are too visible, which renders them useless so you can either let people get to use them more or make them very much less visible.

 

Well OP i suggest you make a comparision of IJN torps vs US now that will be fun... specially starting tier 7

and then you compare also other of the 2 nations dd's capabilities ...

 

Dont exepct IJN DD's to get rebalanced as WG has US bias on DD's 

I know that US DDs are getting much better than IJN DDs at High Tier.

[Zathras_Grimm]

There will be no change unless the BB community want there to be. Nuff said! 

 

[Spellfire40]

At T9/10 you have option to load the F3 who are stealthy fast and fast reloading at the price of being usable to hit a target on away course.  well... you cant field them If you use Torp acelleration. I really would love to have a butom to turn that skill off in port If I feel like trying a bit of short range work.

[Rayk_2]

There will be no change unless the BB community want there to be. Nuff said! 

Considering to what I saw, I can see the truth in your post.

High Tier seems to be World of Battleships/Carriers.

 

At T9/10 you have option to load the F3 who are stealthy fast and fast reloading at the price of being usable to hit a target on away course.  well... you cant field them If you use Torp acelleration. I really would love to have a butom to turn that skill off in port If I feel like trying a bit of short range work.

They will only hit when you are close to the enemy hence why they aren't stealthy but fast torpedoes.

Also you won't get that opportunity often when there are Carriers or a few US DDs or ships with Radar/Sonar in the enemy team.