Issues with Tier 6 7 and 8

[VonPletz]

Now that we have had several patches since the release of the German Cruisers, I want to issue a challenge to Wargamming. 

 

You have given Japanese long range torpedoes and the lowest concealment in the game for Cruisers, you have given the Russians powerful cannons and smoke and great speed,  you have given the British short turn radius, smoke, and fast cornering ships with 10km range torpedoes, the Americans have best armor and fastest powerful cannons.  

With each patch you have cut away any advantage of the German Cruisers, you have shortened their cannon range, you have made their cannons more inaccurate, they have hulls made of paper and their cannons cannot even pen other cruisers from the front.
 

I ask wargamming to do the following, give back the range on German ships so we can do stealth firing.  Give German Cruisers smoke....WHICH HISTORIACALLY HAD IT LIKE THE BRITISH and for heaven's sake make the German Torpedo range historic at 8 to 10 km with a 74km speed!

It is unfair that you have systematically undercut the German Cruisers with each new patch and now with all the gimmicks you give the other Cruisers (smoke, faster turn, lower concealment, etc...) it is clear you have killed any reason to play a German ship.  That is unfair and an insult to these ships.

 

The reason German Ships became famous is because they were VERY stealth and have very good long range cannons...

When the Nurnberg was released it was my favorite ship because of its low tragetory long range cannon (20km).  One could fire from long range undetected because it has paper thin armor and it seems now every game if you see a Nurnberg...its your free kill. Wargamming has also killed its concealment by increasing by 10%.  Thanks for nothing!

The Yorck is ok armor wise and has ok cannons but it has the absolute worst turn rate and you might as well make it a fixed gun ship because it is impossible to turn at all and keep the cannons on target. WORTHLESS 

 

The Hipper....is called "the Glass Cannon" because it takes forever to turn the ship, huge turn radius, slow rudder shift and more importantly like the Nurnberg it is totally made of glass and everyone will aim at this this because it is a free kill because of its totally weak armor.  Give it SMOKE or lower concealment by 20% so it can fire stealth....it has a low success rate against its own tier but it will face tier 9 ships that ALL out class and kill this ship easily compared to other nations.

You promoted these ships as tough armored and hard hitting cannons....you advertisement is a joke because it is neither. (see you video)  Wargammming....as one who plays German ships more that 50% of the time and have had to suffer these patches that have taken and taken from German ships...PLEASE correct these problems because you are killing any enjoyment these ships had!!!!!!!!!

Your ad....is a total sham because its not true at all!

 

[waxx25]

tier 6 german is a monster as it is.

tier 7 and 8 suck I agree.

American tier 6-8 suck hard (yes even Cleveland) making the germans better.

Russian tier 6 is good, tier 7 and 8 are amazing but are much more paper than the germans.

The main problem now is the large number of BB's in randoms making cruiser play hard......but you know what? it's still better than the dd's infestation for the last year of this game.

[tenacious_torps]

tier 6 german is a monster as it is.

 

Really? Sure you're not confusing her with the Bayern? For me it feels exactly like the OP said: a Nürnberg is a free kill, the difficulty lies in being quick enough before somebody else bags the frag. 

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

 

Really? Sure you're not confusing her with the Bayern? For me it feels exactly like the OP said: a Nürnberg is a free kill, the difficulty lies in being quick enough before somebody else bags the frag. 

 

agree nurnberg not even close to be monster

[JapLance]

[edited]

[ColonelPete]

OP, get your facts straight!

 

There is ONE RU Cruiser with smoke and that is a premium.

The german Cruisers did not lose advantages with every patch. Around a year ago the CL of every nation lost the benefits of AFT for guns bigger than 139mm.

Heavy cruisers were never affected.

 

Stop whining, start reading.

[VonPletz]

tier 6 german is a monster as it is.

tier 7 and 8 suck I agree.

American tier 6-8 suck hard (yes even Cleveland) making the germans better.

Russian tier 6 is good, tier 7 and 8 are amazing but are much more paper than the germans.

The main problem now is the large number of BB's in randoms making cruiser play hard......but you know what? it's still better than the dd's infestation for the last year of this game.

 

Nurnberg is a monster....????  You are kidding right???   That's a joke right?  

 

Nurnberg used to be a fair ship (at release)  now its just a free kill ship for the enemy team. Its has never been any where near OP.  Patch 5.11 took away its only advantage which was its inaccurate 20km range, patch 5.12 turned its shell tragetory into a mortar ship not the low tragetory shell ship as Wargamming said.  Patch 5.13 hardened the armor on the Cleveland and gave it better cannon penetration now the best you can do is bounce AP shells off a Cleveland unless you get a clear broadside and you won't be getting any citadels on a Cleveland.  It wipes the floor with Nurnbergs...no match....it will burn a Nurnberg down in seconds.

 

[VonPletz]

OP, get your facts straight!

 

There is ONE RU Cruiser with smoke and that is a premium.

The german Cruisers did not lose advantages with every patch. Around a year ago the CL of every nation lost the benefits of AFT for guns bigger than 139mm.

Heavy cruisers were never affected.

 

Stop whining, start reading.

 

I guess you need to read more because you obviously didn't read my post.  Suggest you read my post then look up the game changes made because what I have said is exactly FACT.  

But since it appears you don't read...here is an old video from another evaluator that backs up what I said.

(no reading involved all you have to do is watch.)

 

 

[robihr]

idk why the whine. german has best ca in game. look at scharnhorst

 

[Zogash85]

I really want to like the German cruisers, especially the Hipper (she's sooo beautiful... ), but I just can't! I disliked the way the Königsberg played back in the day when she was first teasered, I was horrified by the Kolberg and the Karlsruhe, and am less than impressed by what I see of the Nürnberg, the Yorck, and, sadly, the Hipper. The first ship in the line that feels genuinely 'good' is the Roon, and I do not have the persistence to grind all the way there without trying to slit my wrists.  I played the Yorck and the Hipper on the PT, and that experience was enough for me to decide not to go down the German CA line and save me the heartache... The Hipper can sorta be made to kinda work, but it requires maximum effort for underwhelming rewards - its weaknesses (sluggishness, size, bad concealment, weak armor) just overshadow its few strengths way too much to be competitive, imho. As President-elect F*ckface von Clownstick would say: SAD!

 

[Gojuadorai]

all the germans would need to be good boats instantly would be better pen angles on the AP like the US have

(and maybe 10k torp range from T8 to T10)

(and radar on the ["edited"] prince eugen)

[ColonelPete]

 

I guess you need to read more because you obviously didn't read my post.  Suggest you read my post then look up the game changes made because what I have said is exactly FACT.  

But since it appears you don't read...here is an old video from another evaluator that backs up what I said.

(no reading involved all you have to do is watch.)

 

 

 

Fact is, Karlsruhe, Yorck were seriouslly buffed, Nürnbergs draft was increased. You come here with false claims.

 

0.5.14 nothing for german cruisers

0.5.13.1 nothing for german cruisers

0.5.13. nothing for german cruisers, really? every patch?

0.5.12.1 nothing for german cruisers

0.5.12 should I go on?

 

 

 

[Nargoth73]

I loved playing the Königsberg but when I got to the Nukeberg I kinda lost interest in the line.

 

Now, a few months later I have started playing more and more cruisers (Molotov, my love <3 ) and the Nukeberg is suddenly a beast. First game I played in her I got Kraken (sunk 3 DD) so I guess it depends on your play style. I am more of a BB player but I love ze cruisers as well, and I guess that one game everything clicked.

 

Nukeberg is love, Nukeberg is life.

[Ferry_25]

I don't fully agree with you OP. Yes I think the concealment is very strange on the Hipper. It really feels odd it has a worse C than Chapayev does. But IMO Hipper isn't that poorly armored. Don't forget you're also operating in T10 matches. And cruiser armor against those BB is merely for decoration. My opnion is I don't enjoy the German cruiserline at T7-8 at all. They excell IMO in mediocreness: everything is "meh." Or at least I didn't find anything they really excell in. Yeah I know: the Ap should be glorious. And sometimes it is but in my case it's bouncy, cracky or the "mysterious pen but no dam" hits. The torprange is actually completely useless... Just too short to grant area denial and a desperate torp suicide run ends up badly in 99% of the cases because the ship just hasn't got the speedpunch to surive the trip to the BB in the first place.

Though I'm not saying Hipper and Yorck can't do anything I never have the feeling I play a decisive role in battle. Nor can I remember at least 1 epic match in them. It's in my case always: "yeah, you did a mediocre job. Here's a mediocre profit in cash and XP. Bore on or take another ship?" I'm getting close to Roon now. But frankly I'm hardly curious to that boat. Only difference I see "on paper" is it has 6000 more HP. Same damage potential per shell, less range (exactly what you don't need @ T9), 2 aft, 1 bow turret and the rest as far as I see now pretty much the same. That's telling me Roon is most effective when retreating, so that less range comes very much not in handy.

[ghostbuster_]

WoW that guy... is a new legend rising?

[SV_Kompresor]

the Americans have best armor and fastest powerful cannons.

 

 

Let's not forget you're talking about tiers 6,7 and 8 without actually having played said tiers

[LilJumpa]

 

I guess you need to read more because you obviously didn't read my post.  Suggest you read my post then look up the game changes made because what I have said is exactly FACT.  

But since it appears you don't read...here is an old video from another evaluator that backs up what I said.

(no reading involved all you have to do is watch.)

 

 

 

 

Wow, you bring a Phlydaily Video as reference?

 

[ollonborre]

When the Nurnberg was released it was my favorite ship because of its low tragetory long range cannon (20km).  

 

That was because of AFT, a change that IMO was needed, so it has nothing to do directly with the Nurnberg as it also effected every other 155 mm ship in the game.

[Gojuadorai]

That was because of AFT, a change that IMO was needed, so it has nothing to do directly with the Nurnberg as it also effected every other 155 mm ship in the game.

 

i also would like to mention AFT on the K- and N-berg was never a good skill cause it made people fight at ineffective ranges beeingan liability to the team.

[dasCKD]

You have given Japanese long range torpedoes and the lowest concealment in the game for Cruisers

 

Ship name	Concealment (surface)
Mogami	12.1
Ibuki	12.6
Zao	12.6
Edinburgh	11.7
Neptune	13.1
Minotaur	11.5

 

you have given the Russians powerful cannons and smoke and great speed

 

U wot m8?

the Americans have best armor and fastest powerful cannons.

 

And look where that has gotten them in the leaderboards.

With each patch you have cut away any advantage of the German Cruisers, you have shortened their cannon range, you have made their cannons more inaccurate

 

Citation needed.

they have hulls made of paper and their cannons cannot even pen other cruisers from the front.

 

German cruisers. Hull made of paper. GERMAN CRUISERS.

Are we playing the same game? I'm asking seriously because you haven't seen anything Japanese or British or Russian if you think the Germans have hull made of paper. My Hipper can and has broadsided battleships at under 5 kilometers and gotten away with it with nothing but overpens.

I ask wargamming to do the following, give back the range on German ships so we can do stealth firing.  Give German Cruisers smoke....WHICH HISTORIACALLY HAD IT LIKE THE BRITISH and for heaven's sake make the German Torpedo range historic at 8 to 10 km with a 74km speed!

 

The Japanese had a historical range of 50 kilometers according to some reports, do we want THAT in the game? I also need citations on torpedo speeds of 74 kmph. That's the speed of the modern NATO torpedo, not any WW2 variant which makes me wonder if you misread something. Also, basically ALL ships of the time, battleships included, utilized smoke at some point or another. Same with radar. Same with sonar. These things need to be excluded for the sake of the game.

It is unfair that you have systematically undercut the German Cruisers with each new patch and now with all the gimmicks you give the other Cruisers (smoke, faster turn, lower concealment, etc...) it is clear you have killed any reason to play a German ship.  That is unfair and an insult to these ships.

 

I suppose we'll ignore which nation has THE most populated line by games played then? Alright.

When the Nurnberg was released it was my favorite ship because of its low tragetory long range cannon (20km).  One could fire from long range undetected because it has paper thin armor and it seems now every game if you see a Nurnberg...its your free kill. Wargamming has also killed its concealment by increasing by 10%.  Thanks for nothing!

 

In the testing phase, you could earn the premium version of the German tier 6 cruiser by getting 4 kills in one game of the Japanese ship. That was, if I recall, the earliest incarnation of low tier German cruisers. That ship had awful gun trajectories from back then. I don't know where the idea of flat trajectories for German low tier cruisers come from.

The Yorck is ok armor wise and has ok cannons but it has the absolute worst turn rate and you might as well make it a fixed gun ship because it is impossible to turn at all and keep the cannons on target. WORTHLESS 

 

Ship name	Turning Circle
York	650 meters
Myoko	780 meters
Shchors	900 meters
Fiji	590 meters
Pensacola	620 meters

Ship name	Rudder Shift
York	6.5 seconds
Myoko	7.1 seconds
Shchors	8.8 seconds
Fiji	8.6 seconds
Pensacola	7.0 seconds

Ship name	Turret rotation
York	34.6 seconds
Myoko	45 seconds
Shchors	25 seconds
Fiji	25.7 seconds
Pensacola	30 seconds

In these tables, German cruisers are held as standard (yellow) with green as superior to standard and red as inferior to standard.

 

Of the aforementioned statistics, the only thing the Germans have any notable disadvantage in is the turret rotation, and their turret rotation is not significantly poor compared to the performance of other heavy cruiser guns. The Schors and Fiji are both light cruisers, so superior turret rotation is expected. The statement above is either false or applies equally if not more so to comparable cruisers of every other nation. The York has average turning circles and the best rudder shift time of any tier 7 (silver) cruiser.

The Hipper....is called "the Glass Cannon" because it takes forever to turn the ship, huge turn radius, slow rudder shift and more importantly like the Nurnberg it is totally made of glass and everyone will aim at this this because it is a free kill because of its totally weak armor.  Give it SMOKE or lower concealment by 20% so it can fire stealth....it has a low success rate against its own tier but it will face tier 9 ships that ALL out class and kill this ship easily compared to other nations.

 

I have played a total of 4 tier 8 cruisers routinely. Out of them Hipper has THE BEST armor. Who would shoot at a Hipper with her troll armor over a Mogami, Atago, Edinburg, or Chapayev? Even the New Orleans is insanely easy to kill if not angled bow on. Also, low success rate against her own tier? Give me the broadside of an Edinburgh in my Hipper and I'll show you low success rate. 

 

 

[robihr]

WoW that guy... is a new legend rising?

 

well skybuck has been banned and there is vacuum on this forum and as you know nature abhors vacuum.

[ShuggieHamster]

I stopped playing the nurmberg (a ship I love) after it got nuked while kiting, weaving and disappearing behind an island. SO many enemy ships opened fire on it as soon as a plane spotted me. I suspect about 500k of potential damage was thrown at my cruiser in less than 30 seconds. its just a huge invite to shoot here for citadels/damage/a kill

But I shall return to it ... mibi once the BB meta reduces a bit perhaps post KM DDs.

[dasCKD]

i also would like to mention AFT on the K- and N-berg was never a good skill cause it made people fight at ineffective ranges beeingan liability to the team.

 

For me, it's a pain to play in the style where you stay far back and invisible to try to farm damage even in a ship like the Zao. I don't know how people put up with it with the crappy ballistics of ships like the Cleveland or Nurnburg.

[Exocet6951]

Germans made out of paper?

Past tier6, Germans have the most effective armor, apart from gud balence bow tanking NO, Baltimore and Moskva.
And even then, a Hipper plowing bow first into an enemy is no laughing matter.

If you only talking about tier5-6, then yes, the Konigsberg and Nurnberg are flimsy as hell, even more so than a Furytaco or Aoba. But I mean, you get 16km range on decently maneuverable ships. You can't have everything.

 

 

As for the Hipper maneuverability? Sure the rudder is a bit slow, but there's absolutely NO excuse not to get the enhanced rudder shift module that bring it down to cruiser standards, by which point the Hipper have the second best tier8 CA/CL maneuverability, after the NO (Mogami needing the stealth module).
The Hipper is a strong as **** ship, and the only trouble it has is adjusting to the herp derp BalanceBoat camping, because of its very poor HE.

 

Yorck? She's odd, but she works just fine.

[Ubertron_X]

The only thing Nürnberg needs in order to to bring her in line with her peers is like +3k HP to bring her above 30k HP in total. Sitting at 27k max she has a full 3.8k to 8.2k HP (!) less than the other cruisers of her tier...