Cruisers without HE - some Thoughts

[Oely001]

Hi,

after knowing British cruisers only from YouTube/forum posts and from shooting at them I have started to play them on my own. Ok, I'm still at Caledon but have played her in about twenty Random battles. She is a nice, powerful ship, but in some situations you can feel that these AP-only guns will become an issue on later ships. I've played Tenryu in parallel for comparison because I remember her being a very fun ship. However, while the stats of these two ships look pretty similar, gameplay is totally different. Tenryu I play mainly at distance because she is as least as squishy as Caledon, but she has good concealment, is very small and maneuverable, and her guns are pretty reliable damage dealers at distance as she has powerful HE. Caledon on the other hand needs to close in; you can fight enemy cruisers quite well at distance - these guns are very strong for a T3 cruiser - but to deal with battleships you absolutely need her strong torpedos.

So I play Caledon pretty much like I play German cruisers: at maximum distance or at point blank range. This is why I asked myself: Wouldn't it be much more logical to give British cruisers HE and take them from German cruisers?

 

What do you think about this?

[Ictogan]

British cruisers at low tiers are generally sh*t but they get pretty decent at the higher tiers. And don't take away my German HE. Heck, you don't even mention a reason why the German cruisers shouldn't have HE.

[Spellfire40]

British cruisers at low tiers are generally sh*t but they get pretty decent at the higher tiers. And don't take away my German HE. Heck, you don't even mention a reason why the German cruisers shouldn't have HE.

 

plus you dont want Minotaur like normalisation on 200mm plus shells because angeling wont work at all vs that crap wich is a pain in a CA. really they are anoying both to play and to play agist whoever created that concept should get stoned. 

[Oely001]

German cruisers need no HE! They have pretty good AP, and they are best for close distance fights. German cruisers are all easy to citadel at distance but are in fact the most resiliant cruisers at close range. They need no smoke or heal to survive their way of fighting.

 

Small calibre AP-only is much too situational. You will often find an idiot showing you broadside, but is it wise to build a whole ship line relying on this?

[ColonelPete]

Just give the Brits HE and normal AP shells and they are fine.

[xXx_Blogis_xXx]

i can say at high tiers brit cl are fine with ap

[Oely001]

 

plus you dont want Minotaur like normalisation on 200mm plus shells because angeling wont work at all vs that crap wich is a pain in a CA. really they are anoying both to play and to play agist whoever created that concept should get stoned.

 

 

With 200 mm shells you need not to do that, they will be strong enough with the normal AP mechanics.

[KaraMon]

Just give the Brits HE and normal AP shells and they are fine.

 

Are you joking? Leander is good , Fiji is monster, Edinburgh is very good, Neptune is good , Minotaur is monster . No one need your HE and normal Ap  , the fact that average potato can't play it it means that no one will nerf those cruisers. Give them He and they will be nerfed to the point where Orlan will beat MInotaur 1 v 1

[creamgravy]

Minotaur is monster...

 

...Because it doesn't get König MM. 

[Syrchalis]

Just give the Brits HE and normal AP shells and they are fine.

 

Nooooo, I'm having so much fun with Fiji and it's super awesome AP.

[ColonelPete]

 

Are you joking? Leander is good , Fiji is monster, Edinburgh is very good, Neptune is good , Minotaur is monster . No one need your HE and normal Ap  , the fact that average potato can't play it it means that no one will nerf those cruisers. Give them He and they will be nerfed to the point where Orlan will beat MInotaur 1 v 1

That is not about performance. I know that they perform well.

It is about the mechanic. Compared to normal shells the UK shells are like magic.

[Ictogan]

 

 

With 200 mm shells you need not to do that, they will be strong enough with the normal AP mechanics.

 

Except that German cruisers are often found to have worse stats than most other cruisers at their tiers. Taking their HE away won't exactly help with that.

[Spellfire40]

 

Except that German cruisers are often found to have worse stats than most other cruisers at their tiers. Taking their HE away won't exactly help with that.

 

well im only T7 in the german line plus Prinz Eugen.  with Eugen i has mostly subpar games with AP unless i get very close and force broadsides with my Torps.  the moment i reskilled De it worked quite well as a long range firestarter. Good AP is nice but having options If your oponent isnt stupid is better. 

 

[Jethro_Grey]

 

Except that German cruisers are often found to have worse stats than most other cruisers at their tiers. Taking their HE away won't exactly help with that.

 

German Ap is very potent against broadsides, but pales in comparison to RN and US AP.

Which is a bit disappointing, considering that - when the CL line was introduced - the strong AP was the selling point.

 

Personally, i don't think the RN needs any adjustmenst at all.

 

But if WG would change them, i'd prefer German CLs with RN properties, add HE with a low fire chance (<1%) to the RN, change the awesomesauce AP to standard AP, reduce the rate of fire on the high tier ships and remove the smoke on ALL RN CLs, let them keep the heal.

Give german CLs the RN AP, increase the RoF on the higher tier ships, remove HE and add either heal or smoke.

 

Everybody would be happy!

 

[Hedgehog1963]

Don't like RN cruisers?  Don't play them!

 

Some of us like them the way they are. 

[Lordofdroid]

Apart from Minotaur (which sounds like batshit crazy; wouldn't be shocked if it is not nerfed in some of the upcoming patches), I think RN cruisers are working exactly as intended. They require a unique play style which is not easy but once you get used to it, is very rewarding. The lower tiers are agreeably "meh" but once you get to T5, they start to show how potent that AP is.

So why change them when they are working as intended: Be different to all other available CL/CA lines of other nations. They are unique so let them be?

[Drake847]

Hey i am not even a avg  Tomtato Player and i got  219k dmg  Kraken Highcaliber  and Supporter achievment in one match with the mino . I ripped a yama for 60k dmg  with 3 torp hits and  Ap Shells to her Superstruct. Didnt got him as ( a benson got him with her torps first ) . But i dont know why everbody whines about the Brit CL´s they are fine just as they are . They are in Kung Fu therm not Tigerstyle more like  Snake style . In Mino 2.8 secs reload . thats like BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM  in your face ,swoosh there Comes the swing from your oponent dodge  and again Bam Bam Bam .

[Oely001]

It's mostly an academic approach, and there would be some other adjustments necessary, too. My point is: RN cruisers have small caliber guns and are very squishy, so they are quite unsuitable for close range combat. You can melt a RN CL with a Yorck in seconds for example. WG corrected this with heal, smoke, magic AP capabilities, and insane fire rates at high tiers. Much special stuff to keep a ship line alive. On the other hand, German cruisers are very resiliant at close range, and they have quite strong guns. For me it would be logical to give the RN cruisers normal guns with HE and German cruisers AP-only guns because they do not need HE so much. And they neither need smoke, heal (up to Tier VII) or magic AP Shells, just normal shells with low drag and good Krupp (what would be quite logical and realistic with German guns).

[mikelight1805]

I play both lines, and i am happy with things as they are. The Leander is the real turning point in the line of RN CLs. I think if Tiers 1-5 had HE that would be welcome, The Emerald is just so god dam awful it needs some help.

 

I find i do 10-15k average damage more on the Fiji with magic AP than my more HE spam approach with the Belfast.

 

The KM CAs need HE on mid range angled targets, AP just doesn't work unless its point blank range or plunging fire.

 

I would rather they just left well alone, or gave the lower half the RN line HE.

[Mr_Mistery]

my opinion is the german cruisers has good AP,and RN AP too so i dont understand why you want HE.WG has made one finally good choise when give the RN only AP if you dont know how use,that is your fault not the ship.

[Mc_Dumble]

It's mostly an academic approach, and there would be some other adjustments necessary, too. My point is: RN cruisers have small caliber guns and are very squishy, so they are quite unsuitable for close range combat. You can melt a RN CL with a Yorck in seconds for example. WG corrected this with heal, smoke, magic AP capabilities, and insane fire rates at high tiers. Much special stuff to keep a ship line alive. On the other hand, German cruisers are very resiliant at close range, and they have quite strong guns. For me it would be logical to give the RN cruisers normal guns with HE and German cruisers AP-only guns because they do not need HE so much. And they neither need smoke, heal (up to Tier VII) or magic AP Shells, just normal shells with low drag and good Krupp (what would be quite logical and realistic with German guns).

 

yeah give german cruisers ap only see how they like it ,would be a good april fools people load in get in there german cruiser and bam ap only. think of the rage in the forums i have the mino it's a good ship in certain circumstances but if you go up against a team of players that know how to angle then your screwd . i have ok stats in mino and looking at the stats of how all ships are doing on stats sites" mino in the bottom 10 "then i'm one of the only ones but yeah give germans ap only instant karma

[1MajorKoenig]

Hi,

after knowing British cruisers only from YouTube/forum posts and from shooting at them I have started to play them on my own. Ok, I'm still at Caledon but have played her in about twenty Random battles. She is a nice, powerful ship, but in some situations you can feel that these AP-only guns will become an issue on later ships. I've played Tenryu in parallel for comparison because I remember her being a very fun ship. However, while the stats of these two ships look pretty similar, gameplay is totally different. Tenryu I play mainly at distance because she is as least as squishy as Caledon, but she has good concealment, is very small and maneuverable, and her guns are pretty reliable damage dealers at distance as she has powerful HE. Caledon on the other hand needs to close in; you can fight enemy cruisers quite well at distance - these guns are very strong for a T3 cruiser - but to deal with battleships you absolutely need her strong torpedos.

So I play Caledon pretty much like I play German cruisers: at maximum distance or at point blank range. This is why I asked myself: Wouldn't it be much more logical to give British cruisers HE and take them from German cruisers?

 

 

What do you think about this?

 

What we think about this...

 

No just no! What an idea... Omg *rolleyes*

 

The reason the RN cruisers didn't get HE is that they are supposed to be smoke campers. The game moves generally away from stealth firing mechanics but especially from a full line camping in smoke and spamming HE at an insane rate. It is one thing if a DD does it or if the whole map is covered in smoke and also the cruisers with their bigger guns use this "tactic" which is little more than artificial bullcr*p and meant as a stop gap for small ships with weak guns.

 

Truth is the RN CLs don't have a natural fit/niche to them as they were just cheap and expandable forces for the incredible long shipping lanes to cover.

 

The moment WG gave them smoke (which was a terrible idea imo) they had to remove HE. Remembering that the game is PvP and 98% of the players don't like if they are shot at and they can't see the enemy. Imo the whole mechanic us questionable and I would have preferred that smoke is a defensive tool not artificially an offensive one.

 

And your idea... Hell no. There is not a single reason to nerf and remove an ammo type of any line (ESPECIALLY NOT CRUISERS!!!) as long as they don't camp constantly in smoke!! 

[creamgravy]

The Emerald is just so god dam awful it needs some help.

 

10km torpedoes. 

 

Mr Oely001 is getting better average stats in Caledon than T7-8 cruisers. 

[Oely001]

@mikelight: You are happy with RN CL but Emerald is awful?   ;-)   I'm pretty sure HE would make RN cruisers not much better but more constant. Small calibre HE spam is quite ineffective but it gives you at least some way to damage your opponent. And mid range you should avoid with German cruisers at all. In addition, it is a matter of shell drag.

 

@Mr_Mistery: RN AP is good against bad players! Even at T3 I had these occations where you inflict absolutely no damage on angled ships. This comes from low calibre. Large calibre shells are much more difficult to bounce. This is why small calibre AP-only guns sound weird to me.

 

@MajorKoenig: The thing I don't like with RN CL is that they all have these gimmicks you mention. Smoke mechanics is crap, and WG makes even more smoke with these cruisers. For me it is some failed attempt to fix a faulty basic idea. Give them HE and take away smoke, and they will work.

[KaraMon]

The only problem with small caliber AP is that you must shoot superstructure on larger ships to do damage , lower tier BB has much less of it than higher tiers that is why angling against a brit is much more effective . In higher tiers amount of shells and size of the superstructure on BB make them still useful even when a BB is perfectly angling against a cruiser

 

Rn cruisers are about positioning, thinking, sneaking and punishing bad gameplay. For example i always try to position myself somwhere where atacked enemy has to angle against me or against my team, never both so someone still is doing decent damage . And add to that geting fairly close to enemies  , ~10 km to nearest so considering 15 km range i have plenty of targets if someone agle against me

 

 

Gameplay on RN cruisers is good , if you do good job you are rewarded and if you make mistakes you are instantly punished . Those cruisers depend much more on player skill rather than rng