Rest in peace Cruisers, may you be remembered.

[cro_pwr]

 

 

1) Cruisers are not UP, your just a scrub. Yes, actually they are underpowered. Unless you would like to come down from your mighty Battleship and prove it? No, didnt think so. Next please.

 

I agree with you. Cruisers are completely unplayable.

 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

 I agree with you. Cruisers are completely unplayable.

This is hilarious You know what's absolutely THE BEST in your screen? Apart from posting it as a "proof" that cruisers are viable? The absolute bestest, numero uno, and whole point of this discussion, is that you lost that game  

 

And it is also pretty obvious what were you doing. You bited BB's, with 20+ fires started, only 1 ship sunk. So, pretty much, you was this useless dude, who just spams HE whole game at some BB's, hoarding damage, but not contributing anything worthwhile to the team. GJ!

 

[Gojuadorai]

This is hilarious You know what's absolutely THE BEST in your screen? Apart from posting it as a "proof" that cruisers are viable? The absolute bestest, numero uno, and whole point of this discussion, is that you lost that game  

 

And it is also pretty obvious what were you doing. You bited BB's, with 20+ fires started, only 1 ship sunk. So, pretty much, you was this useless dude, who just spams HE whole game at some BB's, hoarding damage, but not contributing anything worthwhile to the team. GJ!

 

 

wasnt present in the game but just from the screen i'd say your post is far fetched because of 2 reasons.

 

- you assume something without taking stuff into consideration like multiple people shooting and just getting unlucky about the lasthit etc.

- your assumption doing massive dmg (200k ism assive) is useles aslong YOU (he in this special case) dont sink the ship, what about some teamate who can finish of a hurt BB quickly in 1-2 salvos? following your argument that player is far more valuable?

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

I will tell you how much info can one take from that single screen, based on my experience as a cruiser captain. We can then watch a replay, if cro has one, and we could see how much of my post is "far fetched".

1. Note that he has only 1 critical hit. This does not happen whent you shoot at cruisers and destroyers, since their modules are pretty vulnerable. Threfore, it is safe to say, that DD's and CA/CL's weren't his primary target.
2. Note the staggering amount of hits. When you fight DD's and cruisers you don't do that much hits, since a lot of hits deal damage, which is not the case against BB's. Therefore, it is safe to say, that such big number of hits was needed to fight BB's.
3. Note the arsonist and witherer medals, as well as high caliber. That means most of his damage comes from HE and fires. That kind of damage is extremely rarely done on DD and CA/CL's - safe to say his damage was done to BB's mostly.
4. No citadel hits also would point at HE spam.
5. Exp for lost game - it's pretty lowish for a 200+k damage game, with 3 medals, base captured, help capping base, defending base and shooting down 14 planes. That would mean, most of that damage was being done to BB's. Since exp is obviously decided on % HP of target, it would suggest only few ships actually camed under his fire, and those that did, were propably BB's.
6. No confederate medal for such high damage game would again suggest, that pretty limited number of ships suffered that 200k damage - propably two or three BB's.
7. Since map seems to be "trap", my guess is that our cro encountered some BB's, withered them down for a long time, took 'em down. Propably before that he helped capping one base, after that he solo capped another. But those are just guesses. In the meantime, enemy team controlled the map and, in the end, won by points while leaving cro_pwr with 200+k damage and lost game.

regarding exp, check this screen:
1. Damage distributed between cruisers, destroyers and BB's.

2. Damage done only to BB's
 

 

 

[cro_pwr]

You know what else is THE BEST?
The fact that I played with a team that was alergic to caps, and only 2 caps in this game were capped by me.

You know what else is THE BEST?

the fact that I didn't shoot at DDs, cause there was only 1 DD in the game.

You know what else is THE BEST?

The fact that I've got:
2 caps. 7 defends. High caliber. 215k damage. 14 planes shot down. Only 1 kill. Survived the battle with 1.3 million potential damage. And all of that in an USELESS and UNPLAYABLE class.

You know, that class that can't deal damage, that dies as soon as BB turns guns towards you etc.

[S4h3L]

I think only germans and US cruisers are in bad shape bcs their reduced chance to burn down BBs  (give smoke to US and germanz cruisers to fight this powerceep )

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

You know what else is THE BEST?

The fact that I played with a team that was alergic to caps, and only 2 caps in this game were capped by me.

You know what else is THE BEST?

the fact that I didn't shoot at DDs, cause there was only 1 DD in the game.

You know what else is THE BEST?

The fact that I've got:
2 caps. 7 defends. High caliber. 215k damage. 14 planes shot down. Only 1 kill. Survived the battle with 1.3 million potential damage. And all of that in an USELESS and UNPLAYABLE class.

You know, that class that can't deal damage, that dies as soon as BB turns guns towards you etc.

You have the replay? Would like to watch it if it's possible.

 

[cro_pwr]

http://wowreplays.com/Replay/21960

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Great, will watch it later and see for myself

 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Watched the replay. It's almost exactly as I said. You first burned some Tirpitz, didn't sink him, and he proceed to butcher your team. Went for cap B, capped it with help, wasted 7 minutes burning Gneisenau down (which would propably sink you if only he didn't shoot HE at you), and then you got back at C, capped it, and went for CV (which is the only exception to what I wrote). 

So, basically, you being top tier, did a lot of meaningless damage, or damage that took waaaay to long inflict, and, instead of helping your team initially at C, which might result in won game, as would not focusing CV but BB's on cap B. So you spent whole game, farming BB and CV, not doing anything worthwile apart from sinking gneisenau. 

 

I think my point still stands.

[cro_pwr]

Burned the Tirpitz that was solo rushing in the middle of my team, then saw that B is open and went to cap it. Imagine my face when I saw that Tirpitz is still alive, and my team was dumb enough not to focus him down.
Went for CV, got tilted because I couldn't get another fire on him even if my life depended on it, saw that we are gonna loose anyway and didn't care about the game anymore, just wanted to kill him.

So basicly, I did nothing that game, but if I did that in BB, then it would be fine? Idk, I guess...

 

But yea, my point still stands too. Cruisers are useless, and totaly unplayable.

 

Want to dissect few more games (gotta admit it, you are good at it)?

 

as you can see, both are from today, and both are in that useless class.

 

PS. Just got Takao today.
God damn that thing is bad... I don't know how people can play Atago... Played 6 games today with her,  and never felt more useless in my life.

[Comodoro_Allande]

LOL so much salt in this topic. Just one thing, when I play cruisers I hardly ever get one-shooted by a BB, but when I play BB I can delete other cruisers "easily" (because for some people the morons only play BB's...) JUST DON'T SHOW THE DAMN BROADSIDE  

 

[Diabolik__]

cro, you are exaggerating things.

 

You can have very good games in cruisers but you will have hard time carrying team to victory in those good individual games(emphasis on that individual because your own stats improve but your team loses). 

 

That is the point, cruisers are hard to play (harder than any other class) and are least favorites to carry games on their own and that is the thing that drives most of players away from playing cruisers.

 

 

[cro_pwr]

cro, you are exaggerating things.

 

You can have very good games in cruisers but you will have hard time carrying team to victory in those good individual games(emphasis on that individual because your own stats improve but your team loses). 

 

That is the point, cruisers are hard to play (harder than any other class) and are least favorites to carry games on their own and that is the thing that drives most of players away from playing cruisers.

 

 

 

Where did I say cruisers are easy to play and will carry games easily... I know thats not the thing. They were never carries, they were always supports, jack of all trades, name it however you want.

But to say that they are unplayable / unusable / whatever, thats actually exaggerating. They are hard to play, yes. But when played properly, they can heavily alter the outcome of the game...

Which team will get a cap? The one that have cruisers supporting DDs... Which team will bring down that bow on BB? The one that will HE spam him to death. Etc etc etc.

And to be honest, at the current game, the only ships that I consider are able to carry games (domination based games, not standard battles ofc) are Des Moines, Moskva, good gunboat DDs, some IJN DDs, Belfast, and thats pretty much it.

The rest of ships can pew pew eachother with more or less success, but in a normal game, and normal enviroment cannot really solo carry the game... Even if you are in a Yamato, or whatever you still need some way to deal with DDs, with planes, with caps, and you simply are not equipped for all that. The rest is just how good the whole team is, and how good the teamplay is.

Thats just my 2 cents, but yea, I'm probably overreacting because I'm annoyed with all the cruisers are unplayeable c**p

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Burned the Tirpitz that was solo rushing in the middle of my team, then saw that B is open and went to cap it. Imagine my face when I saw that Tirpitz is still alive, and my team was dumb enough not to focus him down.

Went for CV, got tilted because I couldn't get another fire on him even if my life depended on it, saw that we are gonna loose anyway and didn't care about the game anymore, just wanted to kill him.

So basicly, I did nothing that game, but if I did that in BB, then it would be fine? Idk, I guess...

 

But yea, my point still stands too. Cruisers are useless, and totaly unplayable.

I think you also need to watch that replay again. Tirpitz was not "solo rushing", he had a lot of help coming behind him, and as you pointed - not much DD's to stop his advance. CV was totally unimportant at the time he was spotted. You had a small chance of winning the game, since your opponents were a bit unskilled (all of them below 49% WR), if you just keeped your focus on the B cap, ignoring the CV. But, again, you went for meaningless damage. Although your damage is of course impressive, your play is not. And it certainly plays exactly to my argument - even doing crapload of damage, facing terrible opponents, you still didn't manage to pull the win. Now, how do you think that game would go if you would sail NC for example? Cruiser and BB skippers below 49% WR? I think you would just trample them and wipe the floor with enemy team like that. But since you're playing Chapayev, and relying on freakin fires to kill enemy BB's, you just threw one third of the game to remove Gneisenau, a BB tier lower then you, while having help (I think it was Aoba with you, but not 100% sure). This is exactly what I'm talking about, a inability to carry games, even when you're top tier, faced with bad opponents, and in one of the best cruisers in game (which is of course another point - you use 2 examples, of Atago/Takao and Chapayev, that actually are somewhat close to the BB potential).

 

 Want to dissect few more games (gotta admit it, you are good at it)?

No, I do not. As I already mentioned, posting screens with good results are a moot argument. However analysing gameplay as well as checking your stats gave me enough information. I'm very glad you find RU cruisers and Takao usefull.

 

 That is the point, cruisers are hard to play (harder than any other class) and are least favorites to carry games on their own and that is the thing that drives most of players away from playing cruisers.

That is one point. The second, and more important, is: what counters BB's so hard, as BB's counter CA? What is a reliable source of instakill on a BB? You watched replay of cro? Every cruiser from enemy team was dead. What was left were a CV, DD and 4 BB's at some point. We're talking about how Zao overperforms - it doesn't. It performs as good as her BB brothers. Therefore, she must be nerfed, cause she's OP. I can't wait for a wave of BB whining about high tier RN cruisers. Since Neptune and Minotaur clearly keep their performance high, on par with BB's, this situation is surely a mistake by WG. No other ship can be on par with BB masterrace.  

 

[cro_pwr]

CV was totally unimportant at the time he was spotted. You had a small chance of winning the game, since your opponents were a bit unskilled (all of them below 49% WR), if you just keeped your focus on the B cap, ignoring the CV. But, again, you went for meaningless damage.

- Well, At the time I went for him, because I was hoping for (and thats why I was tilted) for few good salvos on him, getting him on fire (2 fires) and letting him burn down to try and get more points, not more damage, because CVs worth a lot of points. Maybe a bad call, but it was in a heat of the battle, and seemed like a best option at the time.

 

 

That is one point. The second, and more important, is: what counters BB's so hard, as BB's counter CA? What is a reliable source of instakill on a BB? You watched replay of cro? Every cruiser from enemy team was dead. What was left were a CV, DD and 4 BB's at some point. We're talking about how Zao overperforms - it doesn't. It performs as good as her BB brothers. Therefore, she must be nerfed, cause she's OP. I can't wait for a wave of BB whining about high tier RN cruisers. Since Neptune and Minotaur clearly keep their performance high, on par with BB's, this situation is surely a mistake by WG. No other ship can be on par with BB masterrace.  

 

 

And CVs / DDs still counter BBs. Most of them... Sadly every day less and less because of whiners, but still do.

And I don't even want to argue with you about balance / are BBs Op, whatever. Don't even want to argue about you about skill or whatever, since I consider you even better cruiser player then I am. But as I said in my last post, I just hate people going left and right and saying that cruisers are useless.

Should they get a buff, or more specific role, or should BBs get nerfes / cap on numbers in games available... Probably yes, something between that lines, thats completely different topic. Are they useless at the moment? Nope.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

And CVs / DDs still counter BBs. Most of them... Sadly every day less and less because of whiners, but still do.

And I don't even want to argue with you about balance / are BBs Op, whatever. Don't even want to argue about you about skill or whatever, since I consider you even better cruiser player then I am. But as I said in my last post, I just hate people going left and right and saying that cruisers are useless.

Should they get a buff, or more specific role, or should BBs get nerfes / cap on numbers in games available... Probably yes, something between that lines, thats completely different topic. Are they useless at the moment? Nope.

Well in all honesty, I kinda agree with you. They are not totally useless. But the thing is, that those that are usefull, are boring (Zao), and those that are fun, are useless (Des Moines). Yes, you still can have good games in them, yes, you still can have an influence on the game. But the problem in my opinion is, that they are much less impactful then other classes. And while this has been going for quite some time, we still see their main opponents buffed, while CA/CL strenghts being taken from them. Is playing Des Moines fun now? For me it's terrible. I can't hunt CA's, can't hunt DD's. Cause even if I do get one, I'm still targeted by 3 - 4 BB's and it's a pretty slim chance I get out of there alive. Is it fun for playing Hindenburg? He's just a Zao wannabe now, since it's amazing brawling capacities are even more hindered by BB domination. Even more goes for lower tiers. That's  why I exclusively play RN CL's right now, which have amazing tools and in fact are the only real cruisers that are usefull and have amazing carry potential, on par with BB's. 

For using the extremities, like useless, completely useless etc - I didn't use those before. But now, I just think, that maybe using such absolute terms will actually make a difference. Maybe someone there will think that they went a bit too far, that this game is not going where it should, that numbers of players on other classes is just too low. 

DD's and CV's doesn't counter BB's. How many torps can you put into Grosser Kurfurst with hydro on? How many Lexington TB's will manage a drop on North Carolina? How long and how many hits it takes to put a single BB down, how much effort from whole team has to go into removing a single BB. It's evident in your replay - how many time you spent on peppering one, tier VII BB, while being in tier higher cruiser with assist? And, even so, he would propably sunk you if only he used AP, this one full broadside hit you received would propably end you. Where's balance in that? Why BB's are being so hard to destroy, while each class is a piece of cake for BB? Game does not "weight" BB value against CA value. It can't operate in terms one BB is worth two CA's. I accept the fact that BB should counter CA - I don't accept the fact, that BB doesn't have any real counter to themselves, with such potency as they have. BB can easily kill DD if he spot it, at least as good as CA. He can easily kill CA. He can defend himself rather well from CV attack. Has a lot of HP and armour to fight other BB's. So, if I like winning games (not exactly, but for the sake of the discussion), what is the argument that should convince me to play CA when BB is better in every aspect? And in that term, CA is completely useless and incapable of carrying game. Cause when you face a BB player as competent as you are, you have no chances in winning that argument. But what's even worse, your role and your possibilities, unique for your class, are now being given to BB's in name of "BB needs to do everything, cause nobody protects them". Which is of course a whiny lie of bad BB players. Since the BB community is huge and vocal, they get buffs and buffs and buffs. What other classes get? Buffed Fighter Decks. Nerfed invisi fire, "armour optimalisation". So I think it's a rather high time for pretty absolute terms. 

[ulcusrodens]

they should simply create quotas of ship per class (0-1 CV, 2-4 BB, 1-4 DD, and fill the rest with cruisers), and the problem will be gone in half a second.

then they should limit MM span to 2 tiers, and no ship or class would ever be useless again.

 

it's quite simply a MM issue, that developers have no intention to fix, as my years of WG taught me

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

it's quite simply a MM issue, that developers have no intention to fix, as my years of WG taught me

It is not a simple MM issue. Cause the problem will still remain in any other mode that is not random games. Right after radar introduction there was a semblance of balance on randoms, but rankeds were still dominated by BB's and DD's. By limiting BB's with MM capping, you will not resolve the issue, you just "hide" it. And this is a bad way to do balance. BB's are popular, and will always be popular. So they should be made less powerfull, and it would solve more then only CA problem on randoms.  

 

[Siekam]

Cruiser play takes no prisoners as you can get smashed by showing even a very steep angle. 

 

Again, I'm a BB player. How come I found Ranked more fruitful in an Atago than my Bismarck? So fruitful I hit R1 with a ship I've barely used until Season 5?

 

Because ranked is 80% luck?

[KaraMon]

I play mostly cruisers , but ranked only BB

 

Why? because cruiser in ranked is a BDSM , and a BB is just "good parking spot and shoot them"

[BloodRose13]

I have to say that despite what some players have been saying here, my opinion of Cruisers has not improved. even with my Kuma I hate pushing because as soon as I am sighted the enemy deletes me. The only time a Cruiser is ever safe is when there is another friendly Cruiser in front of him/her, and even then that only lasts until that Cruiser is destroyed or moves out of sight/is no longer spotted.

[deadly_if_swallowed]

I see you have only played light cruisers so far. Those ships are, well, light. Fragile. Maybe heavy cruisers can change your mind.

[luk0i]

I see you have only played light cruisers so far. Those ships are, well, light. Fragile. Maybe heavy cruisers can change your mind.

 

Sorry man, but IMO this is not true. Heavy cruisers face bigger guns. And You got more HP and better armor, but You still will be dead if You show Your side and BB will shot and hit. I got quite good results on light cruisers and even on mid tier ones, but I am aware of this true. And when BB deletes me I often can tell what I did wrong - I show him too much of me ship for too long...

And the same is on tier IV and on tier VII (so far). You must accept it or You should leave cruiser line. And no, I am not happy about it, but I still love my cruisers.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Oh, btw. Rumors goes, that Missouri get's Baltimores radar