Admiral Graf Spee- premium T6?

[1MajorKoenig]

Looks nice :-)

[Eddy209]

"Pocket Battleship"  I cant help myself but I slways need to smile when i see that "name". Sounds so much more special than heavy cruiser/ armored cruiser. But it also sounds almost a bit overly cute for a warship. 

You have to give it to the Brits, when it comes to propaganda they were second to none  

 

From the german perspetive though , that ship needed to look like its much more than a simple cruiser. Much like a big watchdog that looks dangerous but unknown to the postman actually is more into barking than biting.

However, when it comes to classifications , the washington navy treaty , in hindsight, creates more confusion than clearity. Especially as most nations tried to "min-max" within the confines of that treaty or tried to find loopholes.

And the Deutschland class was a prime example of a "min-max-loophole-ship".

It was officially meant to stay below 10000 tons. And 11 inch guns were net limited by the treaty. So officialy Germany didnt break the Treaty. Dont forget, those ships were ordered by the Weimar Republic at the end of the 1920s, its not Nazi Germany yet. They still had some respect for the arms limitations that were put on them. 

The ships however ended up about 25% heavier than the officially intended 10000 tons. The Brits knew that fact or at least suspected it. But considering the difficulties most navies had to built new ships within the limits ot the washington treaty, and thereby skirting the limits of that treaty themselfs, no one was hypocritical enough to stop the germany building those ships.

 

The Brits coined the term "Pocket Battleship" to mock the germans and to push the frensh into believing that those ships are a massive threat to France because they didnt wnat to deal within themselfs. The French reacted and built the Dunkerque class. 

For Germany however the Deutschlands were a logical step. Kinda stay within the greyzones of the Washington treaty but still built a capable ship that could at least discourage smaller units and have enough range to act as a raider while being big enough to invoke pride in the population. A continuation of naval traditions after the loss of the high seas fleet. A symbol of might and greatness so to speak, Blown out of proportions  but still. 

 

When it finally arrives ingame , I will most likely get it. Those guns on a cruiser at Tier 6 , especially with that range AND spotterplane sounds interresting. Sure she will have a hard time to survive in close encounters but having a repair ability helps and nearly 40000 points help as well.

The speed doesnt seems to be to problematic. However im interessted how much speed she looses in a turn. If it doesnt loose to much, than that speed is more than enough to run into cover wiggleing alot. 

Im looking forward to playing it.

I hope they just simple sell it and dont hide it behind some event. However considering how close we are to the 17. Dezember (date of her sinking)  i could also see WG having an Event about it. 

We will see. 

[Spicer_Simson]

Now I really want HMS Exeter...

 

[psl_58]

 

thickest armor on the back of the turret?

 

 

 

According to Schmolke & Koop , the 17cm rear turret is "nickel steel", while the 14cm front plate is KC as well as the 8cm side turret. Top armor is 10.5cm-8cm non cemented armor. This  "nickel steel" also makes up the 4.5cm torpedo bulkheads + 4.5cm main armor deck plus the armored traverse bulkheads .

 

Don't know how they rate in terms of protection?
 

 

[RUSSIANBlAS]

I'm actually looking forward to this ship.  The guns should be a scream.

 

Not entirely sure it'll do too well in the hands of most players. Will need a lot of love and attention to survive.

[GeneralMelchett]

 

Rubbish. When I see Graf Spee in Leander or Perth, this text is going in chat.

 

'Make to Admiralty'

 

'I'am engaging pocket battleship'

 

 

 

When I get hit, I'll ask permission to 'revise the list of spares' !!!

 

Great film, great ships.   Why could we not have HMS AJAX???   Will we get HMNZS Achilles in the new Commonwealth line ?

[affie]

How can this cruiser that predated the Scharnhorst and it's 283 mm guns have so much better dispersion when it's guns where the ones that evolved into the Scharnhorsts guns?

 

I did some simple math viewing the shell trajectory as a circular sector with dispersion as arc length, range as radius and calculated the angle of spread (don't know how it is calculated in the game with sigma etc. but it gave me a number).

 

 

This math gave me the following:

 

Graf Spee

182/(16000x(3,14/180))= 0,65 degrees spread

 

Scharnhorst

260/(19900x(3,14/180))= 0,75 degrees spread

 

How come the spread is 0,1 degree higher on the more modern Scharnhorst than the Graf Spee?

 

If I insert the Graf Spee spread with the Scharnhorsts range I get:

 

0,65x19900x(3,14/180)= 226 meters arc length ("dispersion")

 

This would make the Scharnhorst have similar dispersion as the IJN Kongo (222 m @ 21,2 km) so we are still within BB dispersion but more accurate than today with same spread in degrees on both ships equipped with 283 mm guns.

 

I know some of you will probably mention balance as a factor and that this is a arcade game not a simulator. I just think it is strange that the difference is so big when it basically are the same guns we are talking about.

[Diminios]

affie, did you check the alpha damage on the guns? Higher than Scharnhorst as well (at the moment anyway).

 

[1MajorKoenig]

Because WG doesn't give a damn about logic or historical values. Short and sweet.

 

Which isn't necessarily always bad. They use the values how they seem them fit.

[affie]

affie, did you check the alpha damage on the guns? Higher than Scharnhorst as well (at the moment anyway).

 

What?! Did not see that, guess they will motivate it with higher muzzle velocity even if the Deutchland-class fired lighter shells that lost their speed faster than the 10% heavier shells in the Scharnhorst-class guns. 

 

Because WG doesn't give a damn about logic or historical values. Short and sweet.

 

Which isn't necessarily always bad. They use the values how they seem them fit.

 

No they do not, they have shown this before, but a T6 CA that hits harder than the T7 BB with similar guns, can just hope that these gun statistics will either be nerfed or the Scharnhorsts guns buffed, since they already have nerfed the reload speed from historical 17 s to "balanced" 20 s. 

 

 

I inserted the Graf Spee range with the spread of the Scharnhorst as it is now and got following result:

 

0,75x16000x(3,14/180)= 209 m arc length ("dispersion")

 

Guess no one would buy a CA with BB dispersion and that is why they "balance" it, to increase the number of ships sold, but I start to understand why I liked the Kongo so much before playing the German BBs, it is both fast, have range and is accurate, even if its armor is a little bit meh...

[herrjott]

No they do not, they have shown this before, but a T6 CA that hits harder than the T7 BB with similar guns, can just hope that these gun statistics will either be nerfed or the Scharnhorsts guns buffed, since they already have nerfed the reload speed from historical 17 s to "balanced" 20 s. 

 

They also buffed the reload on Graf Spee from 24 to 20 s. But the primary target is not to balance the Spees guns to the Scharnhorst (which has way better armor), but to the other Tier 6 cruisers. And compared to them, she will still have the worst DPM and dispersion:

 

DPM: HE; AP

 

Aoba: 108,900; 155,100

Budyonny: 148,500; 222,750

Cleveland: 198,000; 288,000

Leander: 0; 198,400

Molotov: 108,000; 190,000

Nürnberg: 153,000; 351,000

Spee: 39,600; 151,200

[QuentinEverettDeverill]

"Pocket Battleship"  I cant help myself but I slways need to smile when i see that "name". Sounds so much more special than heavy cruiser/ armored cruiser. But it also sounds almost a bit overly cute for a warship. 

You have to give it to the Brits, when it comes to propaganda they were second to none  

 

From the german perspetive though , that ship needed to look like its much more than a simple cruiser. Much like a big watchdog that looks dangerous but unknown to the postman actually is more into barking than biting.

However, when it comes to classifications , the washington navy treaty , in hindsight, creates more confusion than clearity. Especially as most nations tried to "min-max" within the confines of that treaty or tried to find loopholes.

And the Deutschland class was a prime example of a "min-max-loophole-ship".

It was officially meant to stay below 10000 tons. And 11 inch guns were net limited by the treaty. So officialy Germany didnt break the Treaty. Dont forget, those ships were ordered by the Weimar Republic at the end of the 1920s, its not Nazi Germany yet. They still had some respect for the arms limitations that were put on them. 

The ships however ended up about 25% heavier than the officially intended 10000 tons. The Brits knew that fact or at least suspected it. But considering the difficulties most navies had to built new ships within the limits ot the washington treaty, and thereby skirting the limits of that treaty themselfs, no one was hypocritical enough to stop the germany building those ships.

 

The Brits coined the term "Pocket Battleship" to mock the germans and to push the frensh into believing that those ships are a massive threat to France because they didnt wnat to deal within themselfs. The French reacted and built the Dunkerque class. 

For Germany however the Deutschlands were a logical step. Kinda stay within the greyzones of the Washington treaty but still built a capable ship that could at least discourage smaller units and have enough range to act as a raider while being big enough to invoke pride in the population. A continuation of naval traditions after the loss of the high seas fleet. A symbol of might and greatness so to speak, Blown out of proportions  but still. 

 

When it finally arrives ingame , I will most likely get it. Those guns on a cruiser at Tier 6 , especially with that range AND spotterplane sounds interresting. Sure she will have a hard time to survive in close encounters but having a repair ability helps and nearly 40000 points help as well.

The speed doesnt seems to be to problematic. However im interessted how much speed she looses in a turn. If it doesnt loose to much, than that speed is more than enough to run into cover wiggleing alot. 

Im looking forward to playing it.

I hope they just simple sell it and dont hide it behind some event. However considering how close we are to the 17. Dezember (date of her sinking)  i could also see WG having an Event about it. 

We will see. 

 

Sorry but I think you are wrong, Germany was not signatary to Washington Treaty, they were limited by Versailles Treaty.

 

In Washington Treaty all ship with more than 10.000t or guns above 8" is a capital ship and all countries had a limited number of ships/tonnage available for this category.

 

Versailles Treaty allowed germany old predreadnougth ships which could be replaced when getting 20 years old by ships of 10.000 but with no cap in gun caliber. 

 

 

 

 

[piritskenyer]

 

Sorry but I think you are wrong, Germany was not signatary to Washington Treaty, they were limited by Versailles Treaty.

 

In Washington Treaty all ship with more than 10.000t or guns above 8" is a capital ship and all countries had a limited number of ships/tonnage available for this category.

 

Versailles Treaty allowed germany old predreadnougth ships which could be replaced when getting 20 years old by ships of 10.000 but with no cap in gun caliber. 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as I'm aware, Germany's restrictions in effect meant that they had to abide by whatever treaty Britain had to abide by, And since Britain was a signatory of the Washington Treaty, Germany had to abide by it pretty much. iChase did a video recently on Graf Spee which pretty much detailed the whole calamity and the German's way of getting out of it.

[Getzamatic]

 

As far as I'm aware, Germany's restrictions in effect meant that they had to abide by whatever treaty Britain had to abide by, And since Britain was a signatory of the Washington Treaty, Germany had to abide by it pretty much. iChase did a video recently on Graf Spee which pretty much detailed the whole calamity and the German's way of getting out of it.

 

​That's the Anglo-German naval agreement, which came later and only really had bearing on the Bismarcks and Hippers.

 

Under the treaty of Versailles the Germans didn't have a strict limit on gun calibre, but they did have to seek permission to fit anything bigger than the guns they already had in service - and the biggest guns they had were the 280 cm guns on their remaining Deutschland class pre-dreadnoughts.  By sticking to 280 cm guns they didn't have to reveal what they were planning to the French or British before the ships were actually laid down, and the French in particular would have probably thrown a fit and prevented them from building the ships.

[psl_58]

 

​That's the Anglo-German naval agreement, which came later and only really had bearing on the Bismarcks and Hippers.

 

Under the treaty of Versailles the Germans didn't have a strict limit on gun calibre, but they did have to seek permission to fit anything bigger than the guns they already had in service - and the biggest guns they had were the 280 cm guns on their remaining Deutschland class pre-dreadnoughts.  By sticking to 280 cm guns they didn't have to reveal what they were planning to the French or British before the ships were actually laid down, and the French in particular would have probably thrown a fit and prevented them from building the ships.

 

 

 

 

Yeah the early plans for the Deutschland class , feature several mini BB/Coastal BB ships featured 15" guns .

[Panzerblitz]

 

Please give this ship more secondary range. It has such a great secondary battery, but the lack of range (4km in preliminary notes) ruins it.

A powerful cruiser with a good secondary battery would be something really unique and new.

 

[psl_58]

the 6" guns were employed to drive off DD before they get into torpedo range.

[StringWitch]

thickest armor on the back of the turret?

 

To counterweigh against the mass of the guns so the load across the turret ring is even. Necessary if the turret's construction is relatively light for the guns it houses. If you've gotta have some dead weight like that you may as well make it out of armour, even if it's in a silly place.

[Odo_Toothless]

 

They also buffed the reload on Graf Spee from 24 to 20 s. But the primary target is not to balance the Spees guns to the Scharnhorst (which has way better armor), but to the other Tier 6 cruisers. And compared to them, she will still have the worst DPM and dispersion:

 

DPM: HE; AP

 

Aoba: 108,900; 155,100

Budyonny: 148,500; 222,750

Cleveland: 198,000; 288,000

Leander: 0; 198,400

Molotov: 108,000; 190,000

Nürnberg: 153,000; 351,000

Spee: 39,600; 151,200

 

From playing Scharnhorst, which have the very similar shell characteristics.  I can say this. His shells arcs and time of shell travel are superior to any other cruiser and BB I've played so far. It can do consistent AP damage even to angled ships by hitting their superstructure. Average DMG done to DD from AP is very close his HE.

 

So when I look at shells stats, I have very small amount of bounces and non penetrations in Scharhorst when ex. in Molotov/US CA with 203 mm even 50% shells are 0 DMG hits. Teoretical DPM often only looks good on paper. Real one is another thing.

 

GS have good armor of 19 mm - like New York BB, capable guns to fight any target and torps. He will be really strong support cruiser on VI tier. So his secondaries are cut to 4 km range, probably to make things less OP.

[puxflacet]

anyone knows if she will get pref MM? I would rather not to see her against T8...

[mtm78]

There are no premiums with preferential matchmaking anymore. None will be added in the future ( same policy you can see in WoT ). 

[Fizzy_Odin]

When can we expect the Graf Spee in premium shop ??  thx

[Diminios]

I'd say... on the anniversary of its most famous battle or of its sinking. So 13th or 17th December.

[triumphgt6]

Had two in our team last night - one did very well!

[Viktor_Lima]

I encountered Graf Spee in two battles recently and it performed much like a German CA armourwise. Both matches were unfavourable to Spee, as in one I was in Colorado and the other in Bismarck. Both AP shells could not really be bounced at 50° angles. The Colorado US AP was very punishing on it, the Bismarck's a little less so.

 

The Scharnhorst guns are reliable and good and will perform on it, but Graf Spee will have the usual cruiser problem of positioning and BB fire. I think it will be fun and different, but the T6 matchmaker leaves much to be desired, especially as T6 vs T8 is very dubious, unless you can win it on your own terms, like a Farragut or Cleveland.