Admiral Graf Spee- premium T6?

[Diminios]

and why are so many people offended by pocket battleship? keep in mind shes not cruiser at least she was not designed to be cruiser but thats what she became because after her were built cruiser beasts which would torn her apart.

strange that the term battlecruiser was never used for her. and it would be fitting. certainly way fitting than for scharnhorst...ugh

 

They weren't called battlecruisers, because battlecruisers (as envisioned by Lord Jackie Fisher) were meant to outgun what they couldn't outrun and outrun whatever outgunned them. They achieved that (in general) by being similar in size, cost and displacement to battleships, but sacrificing something for speed. In the case of the Royal Navy that something was armour. In the case of the Kaiserliche Marine it was both armour and guns (they were better armoured than their RN counterparts, but had smaller guns). Scharnhorst, can be called a battlecruiser - it can outgun cruisers (6-8" guns vs her 11" guns), and it could outrun battleships. It sacrificed firepower for heavy armour.

 

The main reason why I dislike the term "pocket battleship" is because people who don't check facts then think it's a battleship that can take on a Yamato and win (at least that's the impression I get). And you're wrong about the class not being designed as cruisers. The Admiral Graf Spee:

• weighs 15000-ish tons,
• has cruiser armour (80mm main belt),
• has incredibly long range (16300 nmi at 19 kts, according to wikipedia),
• has a maximum speed of 28.5 kts,
• has 2x3 11" guns

Let's compare that to the Queen Elizabeth class (namely, the Warspite):

• more than twice displacement at ~34000 tons
• 330mm main belt at the waterline
• range of 5000 nmi at 12 kts
• speed of 24 kts
• 4x2 15" guns

Now compare it to the RN's HMS Exeter, another heavy cruiser of the same era:

• similar enough displacement
• 76mm main belt at the waterline
• range of 10000 nmi at 14 kts
• speed of 32 kts
• 6x 8" guns

 

All of that screams "long distance commerce raider" to me. It doesn't even whisper "battleship". Just by comparing the range of the ship to that of the Exeter (and if you want, all the other Kriegsmarine cruisers) you can guess it wasn't meant to be a part of a battle fleet. Hell, the Königsberg class, Admiral Hipper class and the Bismarck class ships would've left it far behind in any sort of action that required speed.

[puxflacet]

 

 battlecruisers  were meant to outgun what they couldn't outrun and outrun whatever outgunned them. 

 

this is exactly the philosophy on which deutschland class was based

 

 

Scharnhorst, can be called a battlecruiser - it can outgun cruisers (6-8" guns vs her 11" guns), and it could outrun battleships. It sacrificed firepower for heavy armour.

 

Scharnhorst didnt sacrifice gun caliber for speed. There were simply no factories to produce 381mm at the time she was built. And high speed was a standard for every battleship built at that time (Nelson class is the only exception) the technology allowed that, unlike in 1910s or 1920s...there were just no battlecruisers after 1930 because there was no need to sacrifice armor to get high speed

 

The point is that Germany was not allowed to built a battleship at the time Deutschlands were designed. They had to fit the project in tonnage which didnt allow to build a proper battleship. So the goal was not to design a cruiser, but something which could easily handle with current cruisers and still fit the tonnage limit...and yeah. everyone knows that the point was to attack convoys and not the enemy's main force. even bismarcks were not intended for that

[1MajorKoenig]

"Pocket Battleship" is a Brit propaganda term. It just sounds scary nothing more,

The important point ppl are missing when looking st the ship is the intended role. The ships were meant to be long range commerce raiders = cruisers. The only peculiaritiy was a somewhat oversized main battery.

 

Battlecreuisers on the other hand were intended as heavy scouts for the battle fleet and to hunt down said commerce raiders.

 

EDIT: indeed Battlecruisers and Panzer Cruisers shared some design features and  both classes hoped to run away from the big guys - so in this respect they were built based on the same (false) assumption :-)

[psl_58]

puxflacet  its more mundane than this.

 

Original plans for Pzschiffe D/E =Scharnhorst ; went through 19 evolutions in a span of 3 years from 1932-1935.

original plan was for six  stretched AGS @ 18,000t ; with thicker belt armor 120mm vs 100mm on the AGS [speed & range same]

 

NEXT models were 22-25,000t region with increasing armor base from AGS 150mm  to over 200mm- but armed  with 2 III *11"  c28 guns plus 4 II 6"C28 & 5 II 4"F....speed increasing from 28-30 knots but range decreased since this increase was often the choice of turbine over diesels.  so range would be 6-8,000nm @ 19 kts.

 

NEXT phase was complete 6 to 8 warships by 1938 - with the 6 ships option being 26,000t & 3 III *11''C28 guns, while the 8 ship option were based on the earlier design models. Both models had armor base increase to 300mm with speed edging above 30 knots....all turbine based, so range was 6-7,000nm region. ,LATER designs offered 6-8* 33cm guns as variants  [to counter dunkerque]

 

FINAL PHASE was the steps towards Scharnhorst, which feature option for 3*III *11"c28 replaced with 3*II 35cm guns . Speed approached 31 knots with armor reaching 350mm while range stayed in the  6-7000nm region.

 

But Hitler blocked all this since he had other plans for British Empire.

 

 

[ImKilaya]

Fixed that for you.

 

"Faster than any stronger ship" - some BBs it will meet will be able to catch it - Kongo, Dunkek as you already said, and the Germans - Gneisenau, Scharnhorst, Tirpitz, Bismarck. Don't forget how much the MM likes T5 and T6 nowadays.

"stronger than any faster ship" - again, debatable. The bigger alpha of its guns compared to the Scharnhorst will certainly help, as well as the muzzle velocity (supposedly alpha is 8400 and mv is 920m/s, compared to 7600 and 890m/s for the Scharnhorst). Combined with a shorter range than the Scharnhorst, it should have much flatter arcs too. But if the dispersion is a trollish as that of the Scharnhorst, with only 6 guns, you might land shells everywhere but on the target. It does seem to have slightly better armor than the Aoba and Nürnberg, but... that could just mean it causes fewer overpens.

 

Remember, that Graf Spee will occupy cruiser slot, and not a bb slot. All you're saying it's true, but the ship being a cruiser makes it all more exciting. There is definitely a niche for Graf Spee, and I hope she will offer exciting gameplay

Scharnhorst will be utlimate Graf Spee killer I think (Or Dunkek).

 

Also just quit that argument about how to call her... call her what you want, we know what she was, and how she was designed. Heavy cruiser is probably the closest class... but I don't care if you want to call her pocket bb, or even a battlecruiser (which she wasn't most definitely).

[Gabzool]

Only 6 guns , just 3 front and probably 20s reload time like Scharnhorst. Plus cruiser armor and detection range 13.14 like a average cruiser. T6 doesnt earn that much money and u will go against t7 and t8 premiums almost every game and get deleted. Why would buy someone this ship over T7 Scharnhorst or some T6 premium BB. Or t8 tirpitz, prinz eugen if u have enough money (And they earn a lot more credits than t6 ships).

 

[1MajorKoenig]

I guess because ppl are interested in the ship itself not only the game stats...

[ImKilaya]

Only 6 guns , just 3 front and probably 20s reload time like Scharnhorst. Plus cruiser armor and detection range 13.14 like a average cruiser. T6 doesnt earn that much money and u will go against t7 and t8 premiums almost every game and get deleted. Why would buy someone this ship over T7 Scharnhorst or some T6 premium BB. Or t8 tirpitz, prinz eugen if u have enough money (And they earn a lot more credits than t6 ships).

 

 

Reason 1- Graf Spee has some hardcore fans, that will buy her no matter the stats

Reason 2- ~two times cheaper than Eugen

Reason 3- it's a cruiser, unlike Torpitz or Scharnhorst

Reason 4- not a clone of any other ship, like 80% of premiums

[xenopathia]

I've just checked it's images.

It is beautiful:

 

[brutus007]

The reason why it is hard to classify Deutschland class ships is in Washington naval treaty of 1922 and to extend also London naval treaty od 1930.

Cruisers where defined and limited to displacement of 10 000 tons and then heavy cruiser was limited to main battery caliber of 203mm (light cruisers to 155mm).

then the maximum number of such a ships was defined for all nations.

Reason for this was to limit warfare spending while keeping the parity of power between main naval powers. Please mind that post WW1 Germany was not a part of this treaty - according to the Treaty of Versailles 1919 Germany was not allowed to have war naval force. It was allowed to them build very limited number of ships with sub-par statistics. Even before Adolf Hitler rejected to follow up these rules Germans where quite creative in bending (and breaking) these rules.

Deutschland class ships are direct result of this. They do not fit the cruiser definition (as per Washington&London naval treaty) but they are not real battleships.

[1MajorKoenig]

Gents,

 

Don't get hung up on the Brit propaganda and the WNT. All that matters is the role a ship is built for.

 

- Battleships are built to fight in a battleline (or later in a taskgroup) to dish out AND survive substantial damage. Range, endurance and speed are nice but not their primary focus.

 

- Cruisers are built for scouting/screening, commerce raiding and protection of shipping lanes. They need therefore speed, endurance and long range.

 

The "Panzerschiffe" were ordinary cruisers - crystal clear. Intended for commerce raiding. Everything else ("Pocket BBs", "outgun, outrun, blablabla") is pure propaganda or advertising in budget discussions.

 

However if the experiment of fitting larger guns on these cruisers paid off at the end is rather doubtful. Graf Spee successfully fought 3 enemy cruisers but was damaged enough to not be able to retreat to home waters.

 

I would question if there would ever be such an ideal situation when the heavy guns defeat the defending cruisers of a convoy while the own (cruiser like protected) ship doesn't suffer any damage. Cause repairing battle damage far away from home on a commerce raiding mission without oversea bases isn't possible (happened to Graf Spee).

 

All in all an interesting experiment but imo with little chance for the success without the proper foundation (oversea bades, supply ships, etc)

[Todger_Fairmile]

One small problem with being faster than anything that's stronger than you. You have to have the ability to keep running until you are safely away. Sooner or later she will hit the edge of the map. In some of the smaller maps she could be hit almost anywhere on it by the right opponent. Just put many of the Japanese BB's near the center, launch their spotter and Bye Bye Spee.

[creamgravy]

Don't get hung up on the Brit propaganda

 

Rubbish. When I see Graf Spee in Leander or Perth, this text is going in chat.

 

'Make to Admiralty'

 

'I'am engaging pocket battleship'

 

 

[1MajorKoenig]

 

Rubbish. When I see Graf Spee in Leander or Perth, this text is going in chat.

 

'Make to Admiralty'

 

'I'am engaging pocket battleship'

 

 

 

Splendid! 

 

A true Brit I presume ;-)

 

Even if your fellow ships blow up - there is still time for a cup of tea and a bit of small talk ("There is something wrong with our bloody ships today"). A gentleman will walk but never run.

[puxflacet]

Gents,

 

Don't get hung up on the Brit propaganda and the WNT. All that matters is the role a ship is built for.

 

- Battleships are built to fight in a battleline (or later in a taskgroup) to dish out AND survive substantial damage. Range, endurance and speed are nice but not their primary focus.

 

- Cruisers are built for scouting/screening, commerce raiding and protection of shipping lanes. They need therefore speed, endurance and long range.

 

The "Panzerschiffe" were ordinary cruisers - crystal clear. Intended for commerce raiding. Everything else ("Pocket BBs", "outgun, outrun, blablabla") is pure propaganda or advertising in budget discussions.

 

However if the experiment of fitting larger guns on these cruisers paid off at the end is rather doubtful. Graf Spee successfully fought 3 enemy cruisers but was damaged enough to not be able to retreat to home waters.

 

I would question if there would ever be such an ideal situation when the heavy guns defeat the defending cruisers of a convoy while the own (cruiser like protected) ship doesn't suffer any damage. Cause repairing battle damage far away from home on a commerce raiding mission without oversea bases isn't possible (happened to Graf Spee).

 

All in all an interesting experiment but imo with little chance for the success without the proper foundation (oversea bades, supply ships, etc)

 

do not forget that even Scharnhorsts and Bismarcks were also primarily designed to hunt down merchants and not to face RN battleships.

 

also the concept of battleship was rather different after ww1 than before it. there was a big focus on speed and operational radius with pretty much all designes after 1925 (Nelson class is the only exception) so battleships took the roles for which were battlecruisers intended before

 

and panzerships were not "just cruisers". the intentions behind the project were simply more than build regular cruiser.

283mm were nothing to sniff at and at least forced RN to tie lot of their forces for the convoy escort...but yeah. it was proved that when found, their survivability is not great

germans believed in their panzerschiffe concept (at first at least) so there was another class of them projected called P-class with also 6x283 and 33 knots...it would be probably the best possible design for the panzership concept

[1MajorKoenig]

Yeah well... I guess ppl will never really agree on a classification for this class (same for Scharnhorst actually) ;-)

 

I would love to see the follow up designs "D-Class" (which had decent armour actually), "P-Class" (was a pretty fast design) and "O-Class" (a monster ship) in WOWS one day! I hope that in case Graf Spee works fine within the game mechanics that WG will split the German cruiser tree like the IJN DDs - with an off shoot beginning at T6 for the Panzer cruisers. Let's see

[psl_58]

The slow speed of the POCKET BATTLESHIPS seems something of a compromise of the era. While most cruisers of the 1920s could only manage 28-29 knots, the BATTLE CRUISERS could always manage 30 knots or more, meaning the PBS could never escape them. I gather KM had plans to overhaul the this DEUTSCHLAND class in the 1940s and redo the hull in order to reach 30 knots [better hull form & transom?] . Clearly Hitlers war got in the way.

[Muckleburgh]

 

 

..

[mtm78]

They might still lower the alpha on it, just like they did with the Scharnhorst.

 

Decent torp angles, especially considering where the launchers are and when compared to IJN ships.

 

 

 

Why do you credit TAP when that image isn't even from his ffin site but from gamesmodel3d?

[Diminios]

 

Why do you credit TAP when that image isn't even from his ffin site but from gamesmodel3d?

 

Because 1) you need an account to access anything from the PTS or above T7 on gamesmodel3d and 2) I don't have that account and assume many others also do not. Have corrected my post.

[mtm78]

Sorry, Sebastian triggers me easilly when I see him getting credit where none is due  Especially when his content is just a rip off from another (good) site. 

 

Ship looks 'interesting' but it all depends on the shell distribution. If the grouping is tight enough for six shells it could work, just like Gneisenau with 3x2, in fact I actually like the turret configuration more on this I think. 

 

 

[Diminios]

Sorry, Sebastian triggers me easilly when I see him getting credit where none is due  Especially when his content is just a rip off from another (good) site. 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. Will watch it in the future.

[puxflacet]

[Panzerblitz]

I'm a bit miffed about the 4km range on it's secondaries. Finally a cruiser with a good secondary suite and then the range is so anemic that they are useless.

[puxflacet]

 

thickest armor on the back of the turret?