Japanese DD tech tree changes

[BloodRose13]

Just LOL! i did more battles with IJN DDs than you did with any ship in total. so yeah i have played IJN DDs and i have an idea what im talking about. 

Really, I do wonder because your comments say otherwise.

 

so do you think BBs sitting at 20km+ range using their full potential and getting high rewwards for it?

So, sitting 20+KM away, where no one can hit you, in a BB is using the BB to its full advantage, but stealth dropping torpedo's from 7 KM is cheese and should be nerfed?

i think its you who doesnt have any idea what you are on about.

A true ignoramus

do you think good BB players sit at max range and snipe? hell no.

Usually they do in my experience.

only BB players who dont know how to play BBs do that.

So, most BB players. The sad thing is they get masses of rewards for doing so.

so to be an effective BB you have to get closer just like you have to do the same with IJP DDs.

Close in a Battleship is 12 to 15KM, close in an IJN DD is 6 to 7 KM. BIG difference.

so in both situations, high risk=high reward.

In the BB's case he is hanging back at the extreme range of most Cruisers, and out of range of any non American torpedo's, unless your opponent is using the slow as hell and easily spotted at 3KM+ long range IJN torpedo's.

yes i have been spotted of course many times at close distance to radar CAs.

Here is the problem, Radar and Hydro basically gak all over DD's.

and many times i got away by using wasd hacks.

And this works, unless your opponent is competent and/or a DD player themselves at which point you are dead. I have got many DD's before now with long range Cruiser fire, simply because I have played them myself and so can predict the movements.

if you get close and torp your target you can be more effective and get more torpedo hits

Or more likely you get spotted by Radar or Hydro and killed by BB Secondaries and Cruisers

so high risk=high reward thing is not a nonsense at all, is it?

Utter nonsense is putting it mildly. A Battleships "High Risk High Reward" area occurs around 14 KM, where it is all but immune to torpedo's and can only be hit by extreme range Cruiser fire, whilst a Destroyers "High Risk High Reward" area occurs at 3 KM, where it is spotted and in range of everything the enemy has to counter it. 3KM of course assumes mildly competent BB and CA captains whom turn as soon as they see a torpedo boat/spot torpedo's.

 

So no, I cannot agree with you. Battleships have it pretty much made for them where as IJN DD's pretty much have to suicide to get any major hits in.

[ghostbuster_]

Really, I do wonder because your comments say otherwise.

I suggest you to watch some videos on youtube and get an idea how to play them. 

 

So, sitting 20+KM away, where no one can hit you, in a BB is using the BB to its full advantage, but stealth dropping torpedo's from 7 KM is cheese and should be nerfed?

sitting at 20km+ range is NOT using the BBs full potential. if you do that you are only gonna have bad results from it. again you can watch some videos how to play BBs or you can just take out your BB and try sniping from 20km+ range.  which ship are we talking about? which DD? what is your concealment? tell that, then im gonna say my oppinion.

 

Usually they do in my experience.

then you didnt meet any good BB captains yet.

 

So, most BB players. The sad thing is they get masses of rewards for doing so.

no they dont. they are just being useless for their teams by doing that.

 

Close in a Battleship is 12 to 15KM, close in an IJN DD is 6 to 7 KM. BIG difference.

yes there is also a big difference between concealments of two ships. so its really sill y to compare that.

 

In the BB's case he is hanging back at the extreme range of most Cruisers, and out of range of any non American torpedo's, unless your opponent is using the slow as hell and easily spotted at 3KM+ long range IJN torpedo's.

get closer with your DD and torp them you are gonna be successful.

 

Here is the problem, Radar and Hydro basically gak all over DD's.

they both have cooldown times and radar stands max 30 secs. so surviving this time is only you have to do. and if you play smart radar/hydro is second threat to you. first threat is other DDs and CVs.

 

And this works, unless your opponent is competent and/or a DD player themselves at which point you are dead. I have got many DD's before now with long range Cruiser fire, simply because I have played them myself and so can predict the movements.

well you can get away. but of course if you are caught very close to enemy fleet and if they all focus you, you are dead.

 

Or more likely you get spotted by Radar or Hydro and killed by BB Secondaries and Cruisers

they have cooldown times . play smarth and use was hacks. 

 

Utter nonsense is putting it mildly. A Battleships "High Risk High Reward" area occurs around 14 KM, where it is all but immune to torpedo's and can only be hit by extreme range Cruiser fire, whilst a Destroyers "High Risk High Reward" area occurs at 3 KM, where it is spotted and in range of everything the enemy has to counter it. 3KM of course assumes mildly competent BB and CA captains whom turn as soon as they see a torpedo boat/spot torpedo's.

3KM? just torp from +1km, +0.5km from your concealment range. 

 

So no, I cannot agree with you. Battleships have it pretty much made for them where as IJN DD's pretty much have to suicide to get any major hits in.

well. like said its silly to compare those two. complete different play style. so i can oly suggest you to get more experience. there are really good players who give awesome tipps about how to play each ship. 

 

[Elenortirion]

 only BB players who dont know how to play BBs do that. 

 

so just like 90% of BB players in randoms and 75% of bb players in ranked battles below first league approx 50% of bb players in first league can't tell for premiere as I'm not sure If I had ever enought nerve to get that high

 

just to put it into perspective - when I am going into battle as a battleship soon after few matches in IJN DD, battleship gameplay feels like a walk in a park, and at the moment being LAST thing IJN DDs need is further nerfs, and also I agree that current gun characteristics of main battery guns is far from something that could be called "gunboat"

 

as for turret traverse speed - captain still in retrain so it may be influencing it but on my kagerou I have started joking that I the ship is malfunctioning as turrets seems to be rotating - yes they are rotating THAT SLOW I feel like batttleship xD basically since hatsuharu I am happy if I manage to make those turrets able to keep up with with half rudder turn - and I don;t think I have ever managed to force them to turn fast enougth to keep up with full turn

[EsaTuunanen]

as for turret traverse speed - captain still in retrain so it may be influencing it but on my kagerou I have started joking that I the ship is malfunctioning as turrets seems to be rotating - yes they are rotating THAT SLOW I feel like batttleship

30s for 180...

Still 6 seconds faster than Soviet T5 traverse speed powered by half dead gulag slave.

 

And you got that battleship part right in amount of needed planning ahead.

Though actually German T7-9 BBs have faster gun traverse than 36s with Scharnhorst having speed demon guns at 25s traverse.

[fumtu]

30s for 180...

Still 6 seconds faster than Soviet T5 traverse speed powered by half dead gulag slave.

 

And you got that battleship part right in amount of needed planning ahead.

Though actually German T7-9 BBs have faster gun traverse than 36s with Scharnhorst having speed demon guns at 25s traverse.

 

Yes but starting from T6 Soviet get more persuasive guards and turret rotation speed starting to increase. I don't expect much from this change. Yes generally there will be improvements for majority of tiers and some of new ships might shine especially in good hands but question is will that make them competitive with other DDs. They increase RoF but nerfed HE damage while keeping that horrible turret rotation. Just like before you'll be able to do some nice damage thanks to good arcs and good dispersion on longer range (7-10km) but at close range you'll be no match for US or Soviet DDs. I don't think that IJN DDs will lose to much because of removing what left of those long lance torpedoes which were already quite nerfed in previous patches. But seems that those that will left are not getting any buffs. IJN torps are dealing lot of damage and always when somebody complain about bad performance WG's stuff use this as a excuse to do nothing. But now when all (mid and high level) cruisers have hydro plus some BBs and seems some future DDs too, when number of ships with radar have increased, additional rudder shift slots and some other tools/skills those torps, with the longest detection range among all ship carried torps in the game, doesn't provide same success as before. If they are planing to release these DDs in the next patch there isn't left much time for some large changes but I hope that they will in the end give us better balanced ships.

[Kysmet]

The more I read about these incoming line changes for the IJN DDs, the more I'm going to expect an epic fustercluck. They're nerfing the guns on the current DDs and not boosting the torps, and the damage specs leaked on the new 'gunboat' ships is anemic, with slow ships, horrible turning circles and dreadful torps. It appears to be an elaborate setup to relegate IJN DDs even more to the sidelines. :/

[Jethro_Grey]

I was about to write a lengthy post about the subject, but it seems argueing is rather pointless as people have already passed judgement before the line was officially introduced.

 

And while you badmouth something that hasn't seen the light of day and endulge yourself in pitty about the poor DDs, i'm gonna sit here and enjoy the show.

 

#IJNDDsAreDead #WallOfSkill #IHaveNoSkillAndCrapMyPantsSoINeedLongRangeTorps #MadeIJNDDsPointAndClickAgainForGreatJustice

[Kysmet]

Well, we'll see. All we currently have are rumours and leaks. Once they are released, we can pass judgement for good or bad. 

 

[ColonelPete]

I was about to write a lengthy post about the subject, but it seems argueing is rather pointless as people have already passed judgement before the line was officially introduced.

 

And while you badmouth something that hasn't seen the light of day and endulge yourself in pitty about the poor DDs, i'm gonna sit here and enjoy the show.

 

#IJNDDsAreDead #WallOfSkill #IHaveNoSkillAndCrapMyPantsSoINeedLongRangeTorps #MadeIJNDDsPointAndClickAgainForGreatJustice

You are right.

But according to the information we have the IJN DDs weapons get worse (less damage) and the ships do not seem to get anything return.

What other speculation do you expect?

[NoirLotus]

More importantly, we see now a new line of DD coming, with lower damage torps but faster reload.

 

Why such a solution is not given to IJN DDs, solving a great part of the problem instead of nerfing them on both torps & guns and calling them balanced (while they are at the bottom of all DD speaking of win ratio & damage) ??

[EsaTuunanen]

The more I read about these incoming line changes for the IJN DDs, the more I'm going to expect an epic fustercluck. They're nerfing the guns on the current DDs and not boosting the torps, and the damage specs leaked on the new 'gunboat' ships is anemic, with slow ships, horrible turning circles and dreadful torps. It appears to be an elaborate setup to relegate IJN DDs even more to the sidelines. :/

Don't forget leaked possible skill set:

- Two faster spotter planes to detect torps/nearby ships

- New way to know where stealthy undetected ships are.

- Discouraging taking faster torp reload skill by making it really expensive for bonus.

- While replacing it with TA while there won't be much ships affording to sacrifice range.

- Discouraging taking skill for slightly faster reload of guns.

- And if you managed to sneak on sitting carrier you might not be able to prevent him from sending planes to attack you.

[BloodRose13]

If IJN DD's are so powerful I would like to know why my Mutsuki did not get a single hit in the battle I was in just now, whilst a New Mexico's secondaries where able to finish me off after the dive bombers had had their fun.

High risk, high reward? Please, I launched from 7.2KM (Cruiser) 6.4KM (two BB lemming train), 4.7KM (Aircraft carrier) and 5.5KM (New Mexico) and not one of those hit. Not. One.

I ended up relying on my artillery to do damage, and even then it took four full salvo's to actually start hitting the Carrier I was firing at. 14 hits? Hahahahaha, NO.

[ghostbuster_]

Have you ever think that maybe you are just bad? Maybe you cant predict the next move of enemy and just torp the white indicator? upload the replay file so we can see what you did wrong.

[BloodRose13]

And another for you, I launched twice at a Nagato (6.5KM then 6.3KM) and he detected and dodged both salvo's. I ended up suicide charging to 3.2KM and launching spread. He managed to dodge all but one. I then tried to torp a Bayern, only to have him dodge one spread at 4.8KM and a second at 2.8KM.

Yes, such mighty power.

[BloodRose13]

Have you ever think that maybe you are just bad? Maybe you cant predict the next move of enemy and just torp the white indicator? upload the replay file so we can see what you did wrong.

 

Have you ever thought that your entire "High Risk High Reward" system has a major flaw in it? Or that the many players pointing out the major flaws in the IJN DD line might just be right?

For instance, like the above example of a Nagato detecting and dodging two stealth launched spreads, despite not even knowing that there was a DD in the area?

[ghostbuster_]

 

Have you ever thought that your entire "High Risk High Reward" system has a major flaw in it? Or that the many players pointing out the major flaws in the IJN DD line might just be right?

For instance, like the above example of a Nagato detecting and dodging two stealth launched spreads, despite not even knowing that there was a DD in the area?

It works for many people and it also works for me. 

About the battle you have been talking about, load the replay so i can look at the entire situation.( like other ships around nagato? where he was paying attention to, was he turning to engage to an other ship...) then im gonna tell you why you failed.

[BloodRose13]

I just enabled replays - give me enough time to rebuild the desire to die horribly and I will do so.

[BloodRose13]

I am going to sound like a beginner here but: how does one enable replays?

 

[Agantas]

I am going to sound like a beginner here but: how does one enable replays?

 

 

Google is your friend in this, even if the forum search function isn't. Here's the US forum thread about it (We have a thread too, somewhere):

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/19170-enabling-wows-replays/

[T0byJug]

I am going to sound like a beginner here but: how does one enable replays?

 

 

LOL dont worry go here..

 

MAKE A COPY OF THE FILE BEFORE U CHANGE ANY THING. THEN IF IT GOES WRONG YOU CAN PUT IT BACK

 

https://na.wargaming.net/support/kb/articles/517

[BloodRose13]

Thanks, ill do that. Im almost past the Muchsucky now anyway, but maybe one of the last couple of games before that thing is consigned to the 404 will provide some insight.

(FYI, I just tried two more games in it. The first one I actually did things! [1BB and 1 DD torpedoed and sunk, a third BB crippled] And the other one saw a Cruiser dodge my torpedo's at 3.2KM.... Said Cruiser was reversing whilst I fired and my spread covered fore of its bow too.)

[ColonelPete]

It works for many people and it also works for me.

 

Is that why your Fuso outperforms your Shima (last 237 days)?

https://eu.warships.today/player/529210271/ghostbuster_

 

Icon	Name	Tier	Type	Nation	Battles	WR	Dmg ▼	XP	K/D	Sh☠	Pl☠	Srv	MBH	TH	WTR
	Moskva	10	CA/CL	USSR	79	75.95%	103,303	2,268	5.1	1.5	2.4	71%	39%	0%	1,529
	Bismarck	8	BB	Germany	57	77.19%	97,402	2,196	3.7	1.6	2.6	56%	32%	0%	1,540
	Zuiho	5	CV	Japan	18	72.22%	95,300	1,766	9.5	2.1	16.7	78%	0%	0%	1,789
	Friedrich der Große	9	BB	Germany	59	61.02%	95,077	1,948	2.3	1.2	4.1	47%	32%	0%	1,453
	Ibuki	9	CA/CL	Japan	12	58.33%	92,554	1,873	3.3	0.8	1.9	75%	36%	3%	1,708
	Amagi	8	BB	Japan	61	83.61%	91,829	2,149	4.6	1.4	2.6	69%	29%	0%	1,619
	Tirpitz	8	BB	Germany	252	69.44%	90,149	2,223	3.7	1.4	3.2	63%	31%	16%	1,693
	North Carolina	8	BB	USA	90	77.78%	90,143	2,290	3.2	1.4	8.8	58%	31%	0%	1,828
	Gneisenau	7	BB	Germany	40	67.50%	90,066	2,164	3.8	1.7	5.5	55%	37%	24%	1,623
	Bayern	6	BB	Germany	4	75.00%	89,286	1,874	4.5	2.3	0.0	50%	30%	0%	1,774
	Mogami	8	CA/CL	Japan	35	82.86%	86,135	2,319	3.7	1.2	1.9	69%	39%	4%	1,991
	Budyonny	6	CA/CL	USSR	23	78.26%	79,097	2,219	8.5	2.2	0.8	74%	37%	3%	2,035
	Fuso	6	BB	Japan	122	72.95%	78,786	1,870	6.0	1.7	1.1	72%	24%	0%	1,630
	Roon	9	CA/CL	Germany	75	78.67%	78,597	2,400	6.1	1.3	3.8	79%	37%	3%	1,820
	Des Moines	10	CA/CL	USA	86	73.26%	77,609	2,417	3.3	1.3	5.9	62%	31%	0%	1,464
	Belfast	7	CA/CL	UK	73	86.30%	76,967	2,246	5.9	1.5	2.7	74%	41%	0%	1,611
	Atago	8	CA/CL	Japan	61	77.05%	74,770	2,094	4.1	1.1	0.9	72%	41%	5%	1,848
	Chapayev	8	CA/CL	USSR	63	80.95%	74,670	2,193	3.3	1.4	3.0	56%	33%	17%	1,870
	Shchors	7	CA/CL	USSR	63	73.02%	73,498	2,100	4.3	1.6	1.8	63%	32%	5%	1,775
	Dmitri Donskoi	9	CA/CL	USSR	81	65.43%	73,362	2,012	3.3	1.3	1.9	60%	34%	9%	1,492
	Myoko	7	CA/CL	Japan	40	85.00%	68,845	2,091	3.6	1.4	2.8	63%	40%	3%	1,879
	Texas	5	BB	USA	11	90.91%	68,406	2,062	4.5	1.6	2.9	64%	28%	0%	1,491
	Aoba	6	CA/CL	Japan	11	90.91%	66,769	2,322	3.5	1.3	3.5	64%	44%	9%	2,052
	Gearing	10	DD	USA	161	72.67%	66,508	2,495	3.1	1.4	0.9	57%	46%	10%	1,623
	ARP Hiei	5	BB	Japan	22	77.27%	64,290	1,741	7.3	1.3	1.5	82%	29%	0%	1,479
	Nassau	3	BB	Germany	5	60.00%	63,012	1,212	3.0	1.8	0.0	40%	34%	0%	1,447
	Shimakaze	10	DD	Japan	87	64.37%	62,648	2,115	3.1	1.3	0.1	57%	50%	6%	1,514

[ghostbuster_]

If you consider that i dont go only for BBs and easy damage, my score is not bad imo. I usually go hunt other DDs with my shima. But when i want to torp a BB, i get close to him and torp him. But if i got my 20 km shima torps and torped them out of radar range like from 12-15km (less risk), i wouldnt be able to hit anything. So high risk works.

 

Btw. comparing classes with eachother makes no sense.

[ColonelPete]

If you consider that i dont go only for BBs and easy damage, my score is not bad imo. I usually go hunt other DDs with my shima.

 

Btw. comparing classes with eachother makes no sense.

It is diffcult to torp BBs when enemy DDs are in the way. There is reason most DDs do most of their damage in the second half of the game.

 

It is just the way WG does it.

 

[ghostbuster_]

It is diffcult to torp BBs when enemy DDs are in the way. There is reason most DDs do most of their damage in the second half of the game.

 

It is just the way WG does it.

 

It has to be like that. Spot other DDs for your team, engage them. once they are dead you can go for BBs and farm damage.