Japanese DD tech tree changes

[Nethraniel]

I'm fine with 7-10 km torp range in IJN DDs if I keep all the levels of camo and the torps have below 1.7 km spotting distance and speeds of 67 kn and above... (am a big fan of F3 torps).

[Jethro_Grey]

I'm gonna wait with the pitchforks and bonfires 'till the line gets released, as mentioned above, the ships being tested atm and everything is subject to change.

Still, if what i saw during the game is an indicator, the IJN gunboat DDs will be quite interesting.

[BloodRose13]

Interesting? Oh sure, for those whiney BBabies who demanded that the only hard counter to them be nerfed.

 

We are seeing a vast reduction in torpedo capabilities (the only IJN DD weapon) whilst the Artillery is also being nerfed, despite the "its a gunboat line" speel. What is more, these IJN "gunboats" are not being given any artillery buffs compensate, so they will still have that abysmal turret rotation, pathetic rate of fire and laughable alpha.

Well done WG, you successfully killed off the entire IJN tech tree.

Now can we please double the rudder shift time on all the Battleships, as well as triple the turn radius? And remove Radar and Hydro?

[Jethro_Grey]

Interesting? Oh sure, for those whiney BBabies who demanded that the only hard counter to them be nerfed. 

 

We are seeing a vast reduction in torpedo capabilities (the only IJN DD weapon) whilst the Artillery is also being nerfed, despite the "its a gunboat line" speel. What is more, these IJN "gunboats" are not being given any artillery buffs compensate, so they will still have that abysmal turret rotation, pathetic rate of fire and laughable alpha.

Well done WG, you successfully killed off the entire IJN tech tree.

Now can we please double the rudder shift time on all the Battleships, as well as triple the turn radius? And remove Radar and Hydro?

 

Right, 'cause DD cry-babies never ever cried...must have been my imagination that several threads popped where DD cry-babies where crying about the adjustment of the shima torps "mimimi, WG is sooo evul, took away my long range fire&forget torps, now i have to put effort in...". 

 

A patient shouldn't be buried before he dies, so i'd say wait for the line to get released, than start with the complaning. ^^

[Spellfire40]

I'm fine with 7-10 km torp range in IJN DDs if I keep all the levels of camo and the torps have below 1.7 km spotting distance and speeds of 67 kn and above... (am a big fan of F3 torps).

 

Well the F3 are a wet dream for BBs since you never hit them If they on a away course and at current meta you have to get past the enemy DDs 1st wich your ill Equipt to fight.  add 11 km RU radar that can chase you out quick and low speed in anything but shima past T5.  it would be kind of ok If you get compensated in another area but thats not the case. instead they nerf the HE damage too. 

Let's just hope they dont go live as its leaked. 

[Nethraniel]

In the last month I played 78 battles in Kagero with F3 torpedos and managed 66.7% WR with 50k average damage in solo random. When a BB is on an away course range of the torps doesn't matter, because the BB will dodge them anyway.

 

However the high speed of the torps is also quite nice to get enemy DDs by surprise. I really cannot complain about the F3.

[Spellfire40]

In the last month I played 78 battles in Kagero with F3 torpedos and managed 66.7% WR with 50k average damage in solo random. When a BB is on an away course range of the torps doesn't matter, because the BB will dodge them anyway.

 

However the high speed of the torps is also quite nice to get enemy DDs by surprise. I really cannot complain about the F3.

 

true for Kagaro since the Alternative are 10 km lower speed or see me from the moon 20 km ones. with shima 12km ones are a nice compromise still If you think gering gets 16 km ones.....

[Nethraniel]

 

true for Kagaro since the Alternative are 10 km lower speed or see me from the moon 20 km ones. with shima 12km ones are a nice compromise still If you thing gering gets 16 km ones.....

 

Yes, and Gearing has also better torp spotting distance... all in all I am still very sceptical about the split and rebalance.

[dCK_Ad_Hominem]

I will just wait for the changes. Got my Kagero yesterday and still have the Fubuki in port, so I should be able to at least get potential compensation. I will refrain from posting an early opinion on a stock Kagero, but overall I really liked the line so far. The problem is that many players try to use Minekaze rush tactics in t8 boats. Won't work. Imo the guns don't warrant complaining either, massive alpha and since you should be able to pick your fights the turning speed of the turrets is no real disadvantage.

 

I consider them to be quite competitive and am doing fairly well in them. Torpedo nerfs might hurt them badly though. Since the Yugumo is pretty much a kagero clone I'm willing to wait and see.

[Black0rchid]

 

Right, 'cause DD cry-babies never ever cried...must have been my imagination that several threads popped where DD cry-babies where crying about the adjustment of the shima torps "mimimi, WG is sooo evul, took away my long range fire&forget torps, now i have to put effort in...". 

 

A patient shouldn't be buried before he dies, so i'd say wait for the line to get released, than start with the complaning. ^^

 

 

Well I play both the DD's and BB, and I have the complete IJN DD line and the complete American DD line. On the other hand I also have the Complete IJN BB line. to be honest I could never understand the necessity to nerf the IJN DD line. The only valid excuse I can come up with is the lack of skill of cruiser and BB players and that is quite evident nowadays. Even with the nerfs you still see BB get torped and Cuisers sinking due to being totaly unaware of what they are supposed to do and what their ship is capable of.

 

So comments like the above make me laugh. I do believe that the required skills to sail a IJN DD have changed as I also believe that the IJN line is not as fun as they should be. You can say the close range torps are great and provide a great rush...but honestly, they are just crap and unless you are going against a brain dead player because once you get in to range and if the opposite team has half their brain cells working, you will be erased as soon as you pop into view.

 

So yeah, I never thought the new line would be the way to go specially from the moment I realized the fubuki was going to be bumped down...and the main bulk of the new ships are 2xtorp launcher derivatives of the Hatsuharu and the Kagero witch in my opinion were the worst torp ships to be built. Then when you add to that the fact that the turret turn times and the rof were bad... makes me think stronk vodcka is gud!

 

So I guess we will have to wait and see if they are going to [edited]up the entire line or just some...or if we going to have a reworked fun line to play.

 

 

 

[BloodRose13]

 

Right, 'cause DD cry-babies never ever cried...must have been my imagination that several threads popped where DD cry-babies where crying about the adjustment of the shima torps "mimimi, WG is sooo evul, took away my long range fire&forget torps, now i have to put effort in...". 

 

A patient shouldn't be buried before he dies, so i'd say wait for the line to get released, than start with the complaning. ^^

 

Oh, I fully admit that I have complained about IJN torpedo's, most notably the pathetic speed and range of what where the single best (IE, fastest and longest reaching) torpedo's in the world during the time frame that this game covers. IJN Long Lance torpedo's that are so slow there is no point launching them at a retreating vessel unless you are within a kilometre of it because they will never catch up in time, IJN Long Lance torpedo's that are so stealthy they can be detected at over two kilometres away, allowing even the most incompetent BB captain to turn and avoid them, IJN Long Lance torpedo's that are already limited to 10KM with a clockwork snails engine, and are now going to have their ranges slashed still further.

IJN Destroyers whom are slower and less manoeuvrable than other nations Destroyers, and have weaker artillery, and yet are being slowly forced out of their niche: stealth torpedo boat.

 

Now if you want to comment about burying a patient before they are dead, you should actually do your research, because the iJN DD line WILL be dead once these changes come out. The IJN DD artillery is being nerfed, whilst the torpedo ranges are also being slashed, meaning that USA DD's will be able to out-torpedo IJN DD's.

In the meantime the IJN "Gunboat" DD line is receiving no buffs to compensate for this atrocious decision. The guns are still being nerfed, fire chance reduced and despite the numerous protests the turret rotation speed is not being buffed, meaning that you will still have Battleship esque turn times on your guns. The only IJN DD which will actually have a respectable turn time will also be limited to slower speeds than the Cruisers she will be sailing with.

So, good luck trying to dodge incoming fire whilst maintaining a steady barrage (like the USA DD's can), because as soon as you turn even slightly your turrets will lose their arc and have to reaim, which means any attempt at evasive manoeuvres  will instantly mean you are unable to return fire.

 

So yes, the IJN DD's will be dead and buried if the current proposed changes take place.

[Bismarck_chan]

I was killed by a Shiratsuyu yesterday. Sadly I only got a quick look at it as it staid stealthed the rest of the game.

 

[ghostbuster_]

 

Oh, I fully admit that I have complained about IJN torpedo's, most notably the pathetic speed and range of what where the single best (IE, fastest and longest reaching) torpedo's in the world during the time frame that this game covers. IJN Long Lance torpedo's that are so slow there is no point launching them at a retreating vessel unless you are within a kilometre of it because they will never catch up in time, IJN Long Lance torpedo's that are so stealthy they can be detected at over two kilometres away, allowing even the most incompetent BB captain to turn and avoid them, IJN Long Lance torpedo's that are already limited to 10KM with a clockwork snails engine, and are now going to have their ranges slashed still further.

IJN Destroyers whom are slower and less manoeuvrable than other nations Destroyers, and have weaker artillery, and yet are being slowly forced out of their niche: stealth torpedo boat.

 

Now if you want to comment about burying a patient before they are dead, you should actually do your research, because the iJN DD line WILL be dead once these changes come out. The IJN DD artillery is being nerfed, whilst the torpedo ranges are also being slashed, meaning that USA DD's will be able to out-torpedo IJN DD's.

In the meantime the IJN "Gunboat" DD line is receiving no buffs to compensate for this atrocious decision. The guns are still being nerfed, fire chance reduced and despite the numerous protests the turret rotation speed is not being buffed, meaning that you will still have Battleship esque turn times on your guns. The only IJN DD which will actually have a respectable turn time will also be limited to slower speeds than the Cruisers she will be sailing with.

So, good luck trying to dodge incoming fire whilst maintaining a steady barrage (like the USA DD's can), because as soon as you turn even slightly your turrets will lose their arc and have to reaim, which means any attempt at evasive manoeuvres  will instantly mean you are unable to return fire.

 

So yes, the IJN DD's will be dead and buried if the current proposed changes take place.

Over 7 km you can engage USN DDs. for example shima against gearing. open fire when you are disengaging. keep the distance and you can enjoy the 2k-3k salvos on gearing. right now IJN DD guns are awesome. you have to know how to use them. you can watch some videos on youtube. flamu has really good videos about shima. take a look at those.

 

Btw the long lance torpedos that you have been tlaking about had 20km range with a speed of 48-50 knots. in game 20 km torps are faster. 

[fumtu]

Over 7 km you can engage USN DDs. for example shima against gearing. open fire when you are disengaging. keep the distance and you can enjoy the 2k-3k salvos on gearing. right now IJN DD guns are awesome. you have to know how to use them. you can watch some videos on youtube. flamu has really good videos about shima. take a look at those.

 

Well those 2k-3k salvos won't be such common thing once IJN HE get nerfed. You will be able to deal USN dds as much damage as they will be able to you. You may have some advantage over longer distance due better accuracy but once/if they closed in advantage is on their side because of better maneuverability, faster turret rotation and better RoF.

[Nethraniel]

Btw the long lance torpedos that you have been tlaking about had 20km range with a speed of 48-50 knots. in game 20 km torps are faster. 

 

Problem here would be the 2.4 km (3.0 km with Vigilance; 3.48 km with additional Target Acquisition Mod) spotting range of the high tier long range torps.

[ghostbuster_]

 

Well those 2k-3k salvos won't be such common thing once IJN HE get nerfed. You will be able to deal USN dds as much damage as they will be able to you. You may have some advantage over longer distance due better accuracy but once/if they closed in advantage is on their side because of better maneuverability, faster turret rotation and better RoF.

Yes of course they have the advantage if they get closer. like you said, better accuracy helps you engaging at long distances. and turrent rotation speed is not even a problem for IJN DDs to whine about. we will wait and see how it will change. maybe IJN gunboats will have even more advantage at long range engagements. 

[ghostbuster_]

 

Problem here would be the 2.4 km (3.0 km with Vigilance; 3.48 km with additional Target Acquisition Mod) spotting range of the high tier long range torps.

This is low risk=low reward model. if are gonna spam torpedos from long distance you are gonna get less rewads. before the changes, torpedos were faster  and more stealthy. which caused games with 12-14 even 16 DDs. anyways i dont really want to enter that discussion about IJN DD chances. but imo the balnce is good enough right now. get faster and more stealthy torpedos with short range. you will have high risk yes but you are also gonna get more rewards. 

[Nethraniel]

This is low risk=low reward model. if are gonna spam torpedos from long distance you are gonna get less rewads. before the changes, torpedos were faster  and more stealthy. which caused games with 12-14 even 16 DDs. anyways i dont really want to enter that discussion about IJN DD chances. but imo the balnce is good enough right now. get faster and more stealthy torpedos with short range. you will have high risk yes but you are also gonna get more rewards. 

 

Right now, it is ok... but I really hope that they will not nerf camo and torpedo performance in comparison to other nation's DDs with the upcoming split, because then, the balance is not given anymore.

[NoirLotus]

By not nerfing torpedo performance, you mean apart from removing some torpedoes on Kagero at T8, Mutsuki & Minekaze at T6 and even Wakatake at T3 ??

[BloodRose13]

Yes of course they have the advantage if they get closer. like you said, better accuracy helps you engaging at long distances. and turrent rotation speed is not even a problem for IJN DDs to whine about. we will wait and see how it will change. maybe IJN gunboats will have even more advantage at long range engagements. 

I dont even.... How can the pathetic turret rotation NOT be a problem? For goodness sake ghostbuster, have you ever played IJN DD's? Even with a half turn you will out turn your turrets on every vessel baring the Kai Nu Mutsuki, and she only has two guns. You have less HP than other DD's, and so you HAVE to evade incoming fire, but as soon as you start evading the enemy gun fire you lose the ability to respond yourself.

You have literally NO idea what you are on about, do you?

 

This is low risk=low reward model. if are gonna spam torpedos from long distance you are gonna get less rewads. before the changes, torpedos were faster  and more stealthy. which caused games with 12-14 even 16 DDs. anyways i dont really want to enter that discussion about IJN DD chances. but imo the balnce is good enough right now. get faster and more stealthy torpedos with short range. you will have high risk yes but you are also gonna get more rewards. 

Low risk and low reward is one thing, but then what can we say about Battleships that enjoy sitting 20+KM away and pounding hapless Cruisers?

Torpedo's need to be stealthy in order to hit, and IJN DD's should be the ships to give Battleship players nightmares with stealth torpedo strikes. As for this whole "low risk" nonsense, have you ever been spotted in an IJN DD before? Because I have and I can tell you now, everyone and their mother with a line of sight to you instantly opens up. If you have smoke then you might just get away, but if the module is recharging then you will be lucky to make it away without crippling damage.

In the meantime a Battleship can see IJN torpedo's coming in from 2KM away and easily avoid them, and on the off chance that one does hit the BB can just hit 'T' and rebuild the damage.

[ghostbuster_]

I dont even.... How can the pathetic turret rotation NOT be a problem? For goodness sake ghostbuster, have you ever played IJN DD's? Even with a half turn you will out turn your turrets on every vessel baring the Kai Nu Mutsuki, and she only has two guns. You have less HP than other DD's, and so you HAVE to evade incoming fire, but as soon as you start evading the enemy gun fire you lose the ability to respond yourself.

You have literally NO idea what you are on about, do you?

 

Just LOL! i did more battles with IJN DDs than you did with any ship in total. so yeah i have played IJN DDs and i have an idea what im talking about. 

 

Low risk and low reward is one thing, but then what can we say about Battleships that enjoy sitting 20+KM away and pounding hapless Cruisers?

Torpedo's need to be stealthy in order to hit, and IJN DD's should be the ships to give Battleship players nightmares with stealth torpedo strikes. As for this whole "low risk" nonsense, have you ever been spotted in an IJN DD before? Because I have and I can tell you now, everyone and their mother with a line of sight to you instantly opens up. If you have smoke then you might just get away, but if the module is recharging then you will be lucky to make it away without crippling damage.

In the meantime a Battleship can see IJN torpedo's coming in from 2KM away and easily avoid them, and on the off chance that one does hit the BB can just hit 'T' and rebuild the damage.

so do you think BBs sitting at 20km+ range using their full potential and getting high rewwards for it? i think its you who doesnt have any idea what you are on about. do you think good BB players sit at max range and snipe? hell no. only BB players who dont know how to play BBs do that. so to be an effective BB you have to get closer just like you have to do the same with IJP DDs. so in both situations, high risk=high reward. yes i have been spotted of course many times at close distance to radar CAs. and many times i got away by using wasd hacks. if you get close and torp your target you can be more effective and get more torpedo hits so high risk=high reward thing is not a nonsense at all, is it? 

[NoirLotus]

 maybe IJN gunboats will have even more advantage at long range engagements. 

 

What ???

 

IJN DD have the worst range of all DDs, how are they supposed to have advantage at longer range engagements ??

[ghostbuster_]

 

What ???

 

IJN DD have the worst range of all DDs, how are they supposed to have advantage at longer range engagements ??

 

for example lets say the range=9.8 km engaging a gearing at 7km+ range, i would have the advantage if it had better shellarcs  and reload time than current IJN DDs.

[MoveZig]

My hype just got killed today when I knew WG just can't stop their urge ro nerf IJN ships until they become unplayable and they are planning to bring yet again another nerf for DDs.

So...WG making IJN DDs even less worthy...they nerfed the torps because they were too strong for them. Some players switched to invis fire with guns because what else is left...they nerf that too with General HE damage reduction.

These decisions disappoint me greatly...

 

Okay, now that is just disgusting if true. Nerf both torps and guns, buff nothing and call it a gunboat... well played.

[Spellfire40]

 

What ???

 

IJN DD have the worst range of all DDs, how are they supposed to have advantage at longer range engagements ??

 

​the range isnt the prob If your skilled for it at higher tir since you have the stealth advantage.  The real prob is that you have 2 to 3 salvos advantage from suprise with nerved He then you have to smoke up because you cant keep a range advantage in most IJN because you are slower than most DD you face. With the speed advantage your oponent can either chase you down and you lose even more speed evading or open up the distance to restealthed. Benson for example is very deadly since its fast manoevrable has disco turrets and has nearly IJN level stealth. Ru lack in stealth and have to use cover to be a real danger but then their speed can run even shima down.