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Kazomir

The real problem of the RN cruisers and any future line in the pipe.

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There is a saying in my country, basically goes like this:

 

If you try to make a new brothel with old girls (I'm using girls as the word because I don't want the thread closed down) you are doomed to fail. 

 

Basically, Lesta is doing this.

 

If you try to introduce a new line, and give them a 'Gimick' or something to be unique with as a ship line, without introducing, say, a new conusmable or a game mechanic, you are just fisting the ham out of other statistics. Visualizing the AP here. Not to mention that to do that, they also took out the HE.

 

I am having real fear here that in order to keep the schedule of releasing new lines every couple of months, Lesta will not try to experiment with new mechanics at all, just releasing lines with some hamfisted stat or the other, just to make them "Unique" 

 

 

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I have no problem with them trying something different with the RN cruiser line. After all, I dont want a clone of the current Russian cruisers, which are absolutely fine in my opinion. There has been far too much anger and insults thrown around at each other, and its only a day since release.

 

Lets give them a month and see where they are, and then have a sensible discussion.

 

But as far as RN BB's go, I think there is less room to experiment with BB's as a whole. The only one I am slightly worried about is the KGV. I really do hope they stick to the historical 14" guns. But I am less concerned about the BB's as a whole to be honest.

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And like a few have said. You have to adapt to a new play style. If you don't like the RN cruisers go back to playing the nikolia

 

​The Problem is how do you Adept. They are super fragile. they rely on smoke to Keep up Shooting for low damage. they cant hurt BB but with Torps and have to Close to suicide range in the 1st part of the tree. Remember the German ca were you had 200 hits for 20 k-30k damage with old AFT at up to 19km at t5? this isnt very good plus if the are so fragile and only have 2 puf smoke why do the acelerate like rockets and drive backwards like a iceberg? if the smoke should have been just a escape methood it disnt needed to last as Long. and it dont really compensate for the lack of HE when allready Long range Shell air drag isnt on your side at Long range. To really do some work you Need to get Close and you cant survive there smoke or not. For 80 % thease line at least till t7 are more exp pinatas for BBs AND CAs 20 might make them work but why brother when there is a RU line that can do all but the stealth part 3 times better. WHat the game needed wasnt a line that is basically glass Canon anti Cruiser. They should have gone for the real RN Heros of WW2 their DDs.

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And like a few have said. You have to adapt to a new play style. If you don't like the RN cruisers go back to playing the nikolia

 

1) People have wanted RN ships for a LONG time by now, getting a line that feels more like an experiment than a well thought-out line of ships is a slap in the face for those people.

 

2) "Go back to playing the nikolai" Or they could go back to playing ships that still need skill and effort, without bending the in-game rules in the sake of "uniqueness". Your logic that people who don't like RN CLs like OP ships makes absolutely no sense, at best.

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And like a few have said. You have to adapt to a new play style. If you don't like the RN cruisers go back to playing the nikolia

 

No offence, mate, but somebody with fewer than 500 games under their belt and the vast majority of those in co-op shouldn't be handing out advice like this. Sorry but you just aren't qualified to understand the issues.

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And like a few have said. You have to adapt to a new play style. If you don't like the RN cruisers go back to playing the nikolia

 

Its like you did not get my point.

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I agree with you OP.Now that they have started this "every new line must have a unique play-style" I don't see how many more new ideas WG can come up with without the game just becoming more and more arcade and gimmick-style.If they're not careful WoWS will become like some kiddies i-phone game.


 

Edited by Caulton

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I agree with OP, but the sequence of keywords brothel-girls-fisting will doom this thread.

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I agree with OP, but the sequence of keywords brothel-girls-fisting will doom this thread.

 

Now that you said it, the veiled meaning is open to everybody. Self fulfilling prophecy. 
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Now that you said it, the veiled meaning is open to everybody. Self fulfilling prophecy. 

 

It is one of those self-distructing Inspector-Gadget threads.

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1) People have wanted RN ships for a LONG time by now, getting a line that feels more like an experiment than a well thought-out line of ships is a slap in the face for those people.

 

2) "Go back to playing the nikolai" Or they could go back to playing ships that still need skill and effort, without bending the in-game rules in the sake of "uniqueness". Your logic that people who don't like RN CLs like OP ships makes absolutely no sense, at best.

Having had a day on them yesterday, they are fun but frustrating. Very hard to get right. All games depend on the luck of MM, but none more so than the RN CL line. All cruisers are vulnerable to BB's, especially below tier 5. But I dont see the RN ones being radically worse than the rest. They are certainly more fragile, but not majorly so. In my opinion.

 

If the gods of MM are against you, there aint nothing you can do, but try your best. I am not being antagonistic to anybody, but if they frustrate too much then play a different line. There is plenty of choice in cruisers now. Lets see if the RN line gets changed after a months worth of valuable play data.

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I have to agree partially. The developers want each line to have their own interesting design gimmick to make them stand out from the crowd. The only issue is you have to make sure these gimmicks are practical within the limitations of current game mechanics. The idea of having an AP only line sounds unique and interesting but given how ineffective it is against BB's who are even slightly angled (and even when broadside, you have to get close to do more than 500-1000 damage per volley). It just doesn't work very well, and they don't hunt DD's all that well because of the shell arcs. They deigned the shells to drop in from orbit for plunging fire on BB and CA decks at range so trying to hit a super narrow DD from medium range is just a nightmare (and I'm not a bad shot either!)

 

The long and short of it is that these ships need a form of HE, "spamming" HE from smoke isn't the issue that people had in the super test phase for these ships, it's the fires they cause and the subsequent crying and raging from the BB mafia who can't bear to have another class of ship potentially counter theirs. Just give them a REALLY low fire chance, so at least we can do some damage to angled targets. FFS a DD can angle and you do practically no damage, it's just nonsense meanwhile if it's a Ru DD or a Blyskawica they citadel you for days with their strong AP while you do [edited]all in return.

 

Wargaming, admit it your plans for this line have failed terribly ESPECIALLY at the low end of the line (tiers II-V) which just aren't worth the time. My stats have taken an absolute hammering since I started playing these ships, I'm doing ok in the Leander and Belfast (all I have atm) but the Emerald gets shafted by the broken T5 MM forever getting matched with Scharnhorsts and Gneisenau's etc which just one shot you with your colossal citadel. They just aren't competitive and frankly if they weren't Royal Navy I wouldn't bother with them at all. I mean look at my stat signature. My WTR and WR for the last few days have PLUMMETED from 60% recent WR to a 45% with much lower damage and carry potential. 

 

Instead of trying to force "fun and engaging" game mechanics like this into the game make them work, even if they aren't too dissimilar to other lines. People will play them for reasons of than their "uniqueness". Frankly you could launch and Royal Navy line and I would play it and so would many others!

Edited by Drunken_Jedi

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Certainly I think they will add HE at some point. I think that is obvious now. But will that mean they tweek the AP to be more inline with other lines AP? You can get a really decent amount of damage with it, if the target is positioned right.

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The other issue is the top half of a BB's superstructure becomes saturated pretty damned quickly meaning you do absolutely no damage to them. I was trying to finish a low HP Bayern in my Leander and even though he was broadside on to me because his top quarter was almost depleted I was getting a few hundred damage for a whole volley on target meaning he was essentially immune to my attacks. It's the fact that any ship down to the smallest DD can bounce shots for days just by angling. They know there's jack s**t you can do about it and just charge you down to the point where your sluggish handling at slow speeds (say from in smoke) makes it difficult to combat them.

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To be honest when it comes to Italian cruisers for example I'd expect them to be rather in line with ships already in the game, largely because they will have CA's.

They probably went with AP only because of ships like Minotaur, which if it had HE and a similar rate of fire would be ultimate ******. The RN mostly focussed on CL as does the ingame line, whereas other nations had more of a CA focus. Also with this feedback I doubt they are going to do something this extreme again.

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i completely agree with the OP.

at the moment RN cruisers (at least up to tier 5, and the Belfast feels completely different from the rest of the line) base their unique playstyle on few gimmicky characteristics:

 

1) they shoot AP only. that means, the only way to damage an even slightly angled BB is using torpedoes, and damage output is extremely incostant even vs cruisers. shell arcs are ridiculously bad, making any effort to aim at vulnerable sections of enemy ships simply absurd

2) they have no chance to escape massive damage thanks to overpenetrations. every time a shell hits anywhere, damage is brutal.

3) they've got good torpedoes, and (from tier 5 on) the ability to briefly sit in smoke, that makes them quite destroyer-like in playstyle

4) they've got an unnaturally good forwards acceleration, while going backwards they're not so different from standard cruisers

 

i can perfectly live with 1 and 3. nonsensical and unrealistic as they are, they make for a "big destroyer" playstyle that can even be refreshing. 4 should be changed. a ship going from 0 to 25 kts in a couple of seconds is ridiculous. but backwards acceleration could be made better - thus allowing all sorts of ambush, shoot and hide tactics

2 MUST be eliminated. it's ridiculous, and f*cks up any chance to have fun with these ships. vulnerability is ok, but damn it, i can't take 15k damage every time a battleship hits me anywhere, broadside or not. i wanted to try being on the other side and played a tier 4 BB game, killing 3 RN cruisers with a single hit each. it's literally ridiculous.

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Weren't the Germans supposed to be all about ap? And look what they did a few patches ago they buffed the he.

 

Since the RN CL line, German 'inferior' HE has never felt more powerful to me. I'll take any sort of HE over having no HE anytime.

 

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Having had a day on them yesterday, they are fun but frustrating. Very hard to get right. All games depend on the luck of MM, but none more so than the RN CL line. All cruisers are vulnerable to BB's, especially below tier 5. But I dont see the RN ones being radically worse than the rest. They are certainly more fragile, but not majorly so. In my opinion.

 

If the gods of MM are against you, there aint nothing you can do, but try your best. I am not being antagonistic to anybody, but if they frustrate too much then play a different line. There is plenty of choice in cruisers now. Lets see if the RN line gets changed after a months worth of valuable play data.

 

if the gods of MM are against you, you get to play a Omaha vs a Colorado, and burn it to hell. or a Myoko vs an Izumo (see above), or a Hipper vs a Montana (and even so you can do useful damage with some accurate AP shooting, or - of course - with HE). if you're playing a tier 5 Emerald and there's a bloody tier 3 Nassau coming at you (farther than 8-9 km), you can just die.

 

telling people to play a different line is not an answer. personally i played every single line up to tier 8. there's been some bad ship here and there, but every line felt fun and "proper" in its own way. except this one.

Edited by ulcusrodens

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if the gods of MM are against you, you get to play a Omaha vs a Colorado, and burn it to hell. or a Myoko vs an Izumo (see above), or a Hipper vs a Montana (and even so you can do useful damage with some accurate AP shooting, or - of course - with HE). if you're playing a tier 5 Emerald and there's a bloody tier 3 Nassau coming at you (farther than 8-9 km), you can just die.

 

telling people to play a different line is not an answer. personally i played every single line up to tier 8. there's been some bad ship here and there, but every line felt fun and "proper" in its own way. except this one.

 

​Where as I fully respect your opinion, you have a right to it. I think its way too early to judge the RN CL line after just one day. Like I said, lets see where we are after a month. At the moment we have games full of either RN cruisers or battleships. Folks either trying there best to get a handle on them , or folks taking the opportunity to take some easy kills. Right now they seem hopeless. But after things have played out a little, we may have a different view. If not, then WG will be the first to realise.

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The current situation makes me feel Wargaming want these to be the light tanks of Warships. Feels like I'm in the same "boat" if you'll excuse the pun of my AMX light tanks trying to hit a pixel big weak spot on the front of an IS-3 which can just one shot me while I can do jack all to him. I played five games in my Emerald, all T7 matches where I could do absolutely nothing to really influence the game. I got spotted from too long a range, and with German hydro and planes I couldn't just hide behind an island waiting to ambush something. It's even worse now with the Belfasts prowling with radar. Have a 0% WR in it, just shocking made me free XP the Leander out of pure disgust. I'm having some decent games in the Leander, can't tell you why I'm doing so much better in it but it feels far more capable than it's predecessors.

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