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Syrchalis

The dire state of CVs - will something be done?

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Have a +1 for a wonderfully well presented post that must have taken a lot of work.

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Frustrating to play with and play against <- That is WOT artillery right there, a bad route to be heading down right there.

 

To be honest whilst I am not a great fan of CVs, I kind of don't see them and I'd suggest that is a problem, the angry & frustrated me, like the one last night that got his Sharnhorst focused by two enemy CVs the whole game and we had just two tier 5 Cruisers (British ones) on the team so I felt pretty helpless against those CVs. That me would suggest it's not a problem and would be happy to see them die out, but that is an angry and irrational response.

 

The fact I was in a game where 70% of both teams was battleships might indicate why I think not seeing CVs is a big problem.

 

 I like most of what you have said, I like the idea about the Saipan being less large damage strikes but more consistently. But I would disagree on the point about groups of ships, groups of ships is pretty much a hard counter to everything. No BB is going to want to open up in range of a clump of ships, no CA is either and no DD wants to wander near them because he'll get spotted.  That;s teamwork and a fleet working together, that kind of should trump everything. 

 

Personally I've always felt historically CVs were for a fleet far more than just strike, they were reconnaissance and they were AA defence. I've always felt that those later two points should be more important in CV play, they should get more rewarded for dealing with other planes and they should get rewarded for spotting enemy ships and planes.

 

But yeh the decline of CVs has hurt the game, even if CVs were (and still can be) very annoying and frustrating for most players to fight against, their decline has lead more to World of BBs. 

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Beta Tester
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You seem to be missing the point. This is World Of Battleships now. World Of Warships is a misnomer. All other classes of ship are eye candy and WG just plain don't care. Unless money is involved of course. :teethhappy:

 

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[UNICS]
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Great post

 

I keep trying to make myself learn CV but the points you raise keep putting me off, especially the UI and the travel times.

 

Got as far as Hosho in co op and 1 unbelievably bad random attempt ( i got insta cv sniped, but team still won ). Maybe training room will help more, i dunno

 

 

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And why were they AA ? Because of the strike potential.

 

Whenever I see a AA cv on the enemy team, unless its a Hakuryu I feel really confident my team will win.

 

CV gameplay and role has nothing to do with artillery in wot. I dont know what kind of drugs people spouting such nonsense are taking but I would love to know. For reaserch puroposes :trollface:

 

Congrats to WG for more nerfs, this time a economy nerf and a silent flodding and fire chance nerf, there were too few unicums in the CV population already.

 

Im considering buying a Zuiho. Will seal clubbing new players make the game more fun and engaging?

Edited by Tomasberkut

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I had to give you a like for such a constructive post OP.

 

I don't like the CV play style at all personally, only did a couple of co-op games and sucked. Compared to how they were back in CB though, CV's are not much of a problem to other classes unless played by a very skilled CV player and then they are brutally overpowered. 

 

I suspect they are also very frustrating to play at times based on my very limited experience.

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Excellent post OP, shame I've reached my limit of likes for today.

 

Would you recommend the Saipan? I'm searching for a decent in-game Premium ship to buy .. :)

 

 

OP class wants to buff=Does not compute.

 

Of course it's a player with 0 (ZERO) CV battles to post the first brainless "CVs are OP" comment.

 

----->

The other side

When it comes to reworking something and balancing something, there is always "the other side". Things shouldn't just be fun to play, but also to play against. CVs don't deliver in that aspect in my opinion. Mainly because the main interaction from other classes is that of automatic AA. Dodging a well-placed strike is possible for players who play CV themselves, but most players are casuals and never touched a CV, so for them it feels like they can't do much - even good players can only do so much in terms of dodging. What it really is about is giving your AA as much time as possible to randomly shoot down planes. This isn't fun for the CV nor for the one defending against it.

 

"So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you will not be put at risk even in a hundred battles.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself."

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Would you recommend the Saipan? I'm searching for a decent in-game Premium ship to buy.

Yes. Read the topic I linked if you want details.

 

But I would disagree on the point about groups of ships, groups of ships is pretty much a hard counter to everything. No BB is going to want to open up in range of a clump of ships, no CA is either and no DD wants to wander near them because he'll get spotted.  That;s teamwork and a fleet working together, that kind of should trump everything.

 

I'm not saying a CV should be able to kill a group of ships. I'm not saying it shouldn't have a hard time with hem. But let's just look at what different ships can do.

Say there is a group of 2 BBs 1 cruiser and 1 DD, because that is a common sight.

A single BB can - if enough skill difference is there - win this 4vs1 even. Even if not winning it, the BB can severely damage all of those ships, while fleeing.

A single cruiser can set the BBs on fire and flee, while maybe getting an AP salvo on the other cruiser. It doesn't have good odds because it is countered by the two BBs, but it can still deal good damage if the cruiser dodges well.

A single DD can also even win. An IJN DD or high US DD could stay hidden and sink all those ships without them even spotting him - but even if not, at least he can deal severe damage with torpedos.

A CV however can't do anything to this group. The stars need to align for it. The BBs need to be IJN stock ships, the CA needs to be a stock IJN or RU CA and the DD cannot be a US DD with defensive fire. Only if all those conditions are met can you even properly attack this bundle of ships.

 

What I'm saying is - other ships don't get inhibited by a large opposing group, they simply die faster because they will get focused. But until dead, they can deal the same or even more damage (due to target switching) than in a 1vs1 situation. A CV cannot do anything - only if all of those ships randomly happen to be IJN and the BBs are stock.

 

And hey, I'm not saying a CV should be able to deal the same or more damage to groups than to single targets. It's okay if they have this weakness. But when single ships are already approaching immunity, then two ships ARE immune and that's bad. There needs to be a balance. Either single ships are semi-helpless and groups get immunity. Or single ships can have really strong defense, but then groups need a special mechanic to prevent them getting absolutely immune.

 

Possible solution: Double-revert the AA change. Make all AA very focused on short-range/medium-range AA. The overall power stays the same for all ships, but they need to be really close to benefit from grouping. So "being generally in the same area" isn't a pure hardcounter anymore. This is a BB focused change however, cruisers can keep their long range AA, simply because I think they shouldn't need to drive 3km close to a BB to cover it - they are the dedicated counter and they should have powerful tools available. Defensive fire has different design problems, but the long range on cruisers isn't one of them.

 

BBs shouldn't have the best of both worlds. Immunity in groups AND strong solo AA? It's just too limiting for the CV. But it's how it is right now.

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in one of the recent warships podcast ... quemapueblos (WG NA) said in answer to a direct question that the cv gameplay and interface is going to be reworked for the end of the year.

 

podcast below ... about 14mins 15sec in if you cant be bothered listening to the whole thing (it is worth a listen though)

 

https://thewarshipspodcast.simplecast.fm/episodes/49678-episode-10-listener-q-a-with-wargaming-na

Edited by ShuggieHamster
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in one of the recent warships podcast ... quemapueblos (WG NA) said in answer to a direct question that the cv gameplay and interface is going to be reworked for the end of the year.

 

podcast below ... about 14mins 15sec in if you cant be bothered listening to the whole thing (it is worth a listen though)

 

https://thewarshipspodcast.simplecast.fm/episodes/49678-episode-10-listener-q-a-with-wargaming-na

 

Sounds good, but I will wait until they changes are actually out before I give any credit. One must understand my lack of trust - WG has screwed up CVs over the last year pretty badly and made things worse with every patch. A whole year downhill - I just don't see anything going uphill until it actually does.

 

If there is one positive thing I take out of it is that WG is at least aware of the situation.

 

I guess in February 2017 we will know. That's my guess when the changes will be out at the earliest.

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I'm honestly expecting that by "reworking gameplay" they're gonna make CVs even more fighter focused so as to not offend the class that needs to be cuddled most of the time (you know which one I'm talking about). He could've even implied it if you take his words in a certain way.

 

I don't see how submarines will make CVs balanced. If subs ever get implemented, I imagine you'd deal with them the same way you'd deal with DDs trying to sneak up on you currently (unless ofc a CV has actually no way to attack or spot it, which would be rather ahistorical, even then any carrier from T6 onwards will outrun a submerged sub). See that you're detected? Fan out your planes to the most likely locations while moving towards the nearest bunch of friendly ships (which shouldn't be too far away in the first place if you're moving with them), then spot and sink the offending scrub that thinks he can still snipe CVs during a time when the SA skill is given to everyone for free.

Edited by El2aZeR

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Bad pacing

Moments in which you wait minutes for planes to return, rearm and restart are boring as hell. Followed by moments where you need to manually torpedo bomb, dive bomb and strafe the enemy CV's forces at the same time which is hard to do for anyone but a korean SC2 pro - especially with the interface causing huge issues and limiting your APM harshly. The other ships don't have the perfect pacing either, but it's a lot better.

 

This is my main gripe of the CV gameplay.

I'm not much of a CV player myself, mainly for all the reasons you stated yourself. I do play IJN carriers once in a blue moon. So yeah, have a +1.

Edited by Surmaaja

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[GRKEN]
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cry harder, sky-rat. Your tears are delicious

Your bottlesheep got its shiny paintjob scratched by enemy fire when it needed to move from map border?

 

 

I don't see how submarines will make CVs balanced. If subs ever get implemented, I imagine you'd deal with them the same way you'd deal with DDs trying to sneak up on you currently (unless ofc a CV has actually no way to attack or spot it, which would be rather ahistorical, even then any carrier from T6 onwards will outrun a submerged sub).

Even Bogue and Langley would easily outrun submerged WW2 era sub and neither would sub have easy time at surface.

Subs just would be extremely hard to fit into game context in any meaningful way.

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[PRAVD]
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You should've taken the hint on CVs months ago. The nerfs made an already unpopular class even less popular, so now if CVs suffer it doesn't matter, because the % of players that will care is minimal. This means that there's a lot less incentive to please CV players compared to players of other classes.

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WG keeps stacking blatant nerfs to the least played class, as Aerroon said above.

 

I find carriers to be an integral part of any match. To mention just a few things on how they contribute to the gameplay: they spot enemy ships, they counter bow-locked battleship creep, they provide a big chunk of basically free exp (30 plane kills is 1 ship kill in exp).

 

Apparently WG caters to the most primitive layer of players that have a hard time dealing with planes and an easy time complaining about it. In the end everyone is missing out when there are no carriers in the match - the gameplay is dull and a lot less exp for ships with good anti-air.

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cry harder, sky-rat. Your tears are delicious

 

Have you tried playing carriers? It's nowhere near as easy as playing arty on tanks. You actually need a bit of brain power. Hence why I don't play that class.:smart_fish:

*edit* typo error

Edited by Stixius

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Have you tried playing carriers? It's nowhere near as easy as playing arty on tanks. You actually need a bit of brain power. Hence why I don't play that class.:smart_fish:

*edit* typo error

 

Easy; I don't think he has mastered the art of walking upright yet... 

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What a strange thread.

 

So utterly overpowered CVs get nerfed (not counting the premium Saipan, which is still OP) to a more balanced state, and now a guy that's supposedly looking for "well balanced gameplay" (which he apparently gets only when playing the OP Saipan with tier 9 planes) asks when will the regular CVs get buffed back a bit?

 

I am quite confused.

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What a strange thread.

 

So utterly overpowered CVs get nerfed (not counting the premium Saipan, which is still OP) to a more balanced state, and now a guy that's supposedly looking for "well balanced gameplay" asks when will his CVs get buffed back a bit?

 

I am quite confused.

 

Did you read the topic? Obviously not.

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