Guide: British Cruisers

[Imryn]

 

Interestingly also covered in the link above.

 

The battleships were moored at Scapa Flow, they could and did conduct live firing exercises whenever they wanted and as a result their gunnery was excellent, the battlecruisers were moored in the Firth of Forth and if you set off a 13.5" gun there you'd be blowing out every window for miles around and since there was a war on you couldn't just go out to sea for a bit of practice thanks to the U-boats, so their gunnery was less good.

 

This is also possibly the reason why so many ships were lost, because they weren't getting the practice they resorted to short cuts to keep the rate of fire up that ultimately proved fatal.

 

 

Quite a few points here, ok,

 

1) Spit and polish v's firing guns - this was sorted out by Jackie Fisher when he was put in charge of the Mediterranean Fleet, which was at the turn of the century.

2) Live fire - already adequately responded to. eg The BB's of the Grand fleet had had a live fire exercise just days prior to Jutland. The BC's were frequently denied permission to put to sea due the risk of submarine ambushes.

3) BC gunnery accuracy - was poor to start with (compared to the BB's), this was compounded by visibility issues in the Run to the South, note that in naval warfare, you do not necessarily get equal visibility in both directions (eg you can have a haze over 1 part of the sea, but not another). Run to the north was better both ways, then during one of the BB contacts, the RN could see the HSF, but the HSF could only see the RN gun flashes, which is not enough to get a good firing solution from. Campbells 'Jutland, an analysis' has superb statistics on all of this. A good read also.

4) BB accuracy - Iron Dukes gunnery was the most accurate BB in the battle, nothing wrong with the rest of them either, compared to the HSF.

5) Sloppy Handling - in the BC's, yes, note also Seydlitz and other HSF ships had the same issue at Dogger bank and also Jutland, but due to different propellant and the storage, did not suffer the explosive results.

 

 

Thanks for setting me straight.

I was under the impression that the BB's, whilst not under the same restrictions as the BC's, were reluctant to foul their ships with live fire practice. I was aware of Jackie Fishers's reforms but was under the impression that there was significant resistance to them. I guess the author of the history I read was more of a critic than I thought!

 

 

[Goats_Beard]

I played today with Caledon and it feel squishy.

 

Since when DDs can citadel hit? -.-

 

It's much worse than you think. Take a guess at the highest tier RN cruiser which can be citadelled every shot by a Storozhevoi at close range in a training room against an inactive bot (unrealistic I know but serves to illustrate the point)

 

Hint: it's a higher tier than than Danae

 

Well done anyone who guessed Minotaur.

 

You're possibly thinking Russian dds have particulatly good guns. So just for kicks and giggles, I tried it with the Black Swan and was also able to citadel the Minotaur though not quite as easily.

 

 

[Chiledip]

Oh, I am looking at the bigger picture! I have the feeling that you don't Because, up to this point, it was average Joe who was backed up by wargaming, and look where it got us. We have BB dominating, cause CV's were too hard for them to manage, so they nerfed them. DD were also too hard for them, so not only they were nerfed, but also cruiser radar was buffed (totally uncalled for buff) with halving radar consumable cooldown. Cruisers are becoming more and more subpar class. Higher tiers are already becoming more and more 5 BB 2 CA 5 DD games. Furthermore, average Joe couldn't make the strike CV work, cause it was harder then just random clicking and receiving citadels in BB's. So they nerfed them to the ground and introduced Fighter Decks, who nobody called for. Find me one skilled CV player, that wished FD's were introduced in the game. Even better, they nerf CV's even further, while still buffing Fighter Decks, and nobody still calls for that, apart from average Joe, who sails his BB, and doesn't want to be bothered by some planes and turning his ship once in a while.

And while game is slowly devolving into absolute crap, here we are, discussing should we heed average Joe more, or maybe not?

I don't know which game you're so successfull and devoted to community. My guess would be EVE, but that's a game that is one in a milion, same as it's community. And, furthermore, it's as opposite to casual gaming as it's possible. On the other hand, we have a similar to WoWs game - Elite Dangerous. And it's community is pretty similar to WoWs one. There are a lot of casual "forum dads" there, where they find a Cobra Mk III spaceship an endgame vessel. You can have full gimped Cobra Mk III in one evening. But, they voice their opinion quite loudly, and from a masterpiece game it might be, Elite Dangerous devolved into slowly dying production, cause any real needed change would meet average Joe displeasure. The problem is, both here and in ED is, that no matter what you would do, average Joe will always be displeasured. He will never be satisfied. Cause he is a bad player, and he will always be "food" for better player. But in WoWs, he will sail BB, and once in a while, he will get that double citadel hit, cause game design allows it. It is of course at expense of better player, who dodged, used cover, ambushed and whatnot. And so, it will always end with frustration for better player, and mild satisfaction for average Joe. But better player will leave the game, cause he will realise, sooner or later, that he's opinion is not important, and game changed into something he doesn't want to play. As WoWs now. The only reason that keeps me playing this game now, is RN. There is no point to playing higher tier random games - BB's dominate everything and I'm at their mercy, no matter how well I play. 

 

To sum it up. No, you're wrong. As far as content go, yeah, average Joe should be the guy who decides what should be added. Containers, new lines, clans, team battles, prem ships, flags, camos - this is all in average Joe dominium. But balance, game design - this should be kept as far away from average Joe as possible. Average Joe should be presented with results and told: here, play it. 

 

It sounds harsh, but I'm also speaking from experience, and too many good games were killed cause they were developed in accordance to "masses" wishes. And scenario is all the same. Game is released, it's nice and a lot of peps play it. Average Joe joins the game, don't want to learn, demand changes. Good players oppose changes, come with alternatives. Good players advices are disregarded, average Joe wishes are implemented. Game devolve. Repeat few times. Good players leave game. Average Joe plays for a while, and then migrates after good players. Game dies.

 

And how it is all regarding RN cruisers? Yeah, they need few tweaks, that I agree with. But first of all, no, they don't need HE. And no, they don't need that much buffs to survivability. But, no matter what I say, it's the average Joe who will decide here. 

 

 

You are not looking at the big picture at all. The problem is that you have only taken one step back when to see the whole picture you need to take many steps backwards. You talk about BBS, it has been said MANY TIMES on this thread that there are too many of them and the game is now catering for them. How in God's name can you even begin to come out with that load of.....hogwash. The only people arguing against what we are saying are BB players and you.

EVE is not the game I play, 

I will try again to make you see the bigger picture.

You want an esport out of WOWS? What will 100% determine whether you get anywhere is sponsors. Sponsors don't care about whether the game is fun of not. They don't care about the meta, they don't care about whether the game is a campfest (which is good for you and the RN cruisers). They only care about revenue. In order to fulfill their needs there has to be a large and growing, engaged community. It is the only thing that will get you there.

Now let me tell you about communities and games. The community have to FEEL like they are playing the same game when they play for fun as the PROS are playing. They have to have access to the same equipment, play by the same rules etc That is why, without exception, the core of the game HAS to be aimed at the core. If you can't get your head around this pretty simple principle, which has been proven to be the exact model of every online game that I know of that has ever become an esport, I don't know what to say to you.

I am basically repeating myself now I know, it is a shame that I have had to. Elite players need to be catered for also , of course, but not with CORE content. EVER

 

"But balance, game design - this should be kept as far away from average Joe as possible. Average Joe should be presented with results and told: here, play it. "

This just sums up your problem here. As I said to you in my first post about this if you got your way Dropsiq, you may actually end up with the game that YOU want, but the game that YOU want will never get to where YOU want it to be.

 

All people in this thread wanted was a cruiser which could be played aggressively. They feel like its too campy and passive and making the meta worse. They feel that they are too BB friendly. Now thinking about that and reading your post again, are you really seeing the whole picture, it seems that you aren't even reading the thread.

 

 

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

Ok, since we disagree, obviously, I have only one question for you:

 

How would you rate state of the game at this point? You can exclude RN. And an honest answer, without explaining why. Do you think game improved since CBT/OBT apart from added content?

 

Oh, on a side note, those cruisers are super aggressive. More aggressive and in your face style then anything we have in game. But that is not what community want. They want another line of Zao's. That's what they want. A line in which even the shittiest of players will perform quite nice. Instead they got line that outperform Zao, but you need to put effort in it. And that's too much for them.

 

Give me an honest answer for my question, and I be on my way, I think I said enough for one topic.

[KurtVonSteiger]

A purely personal view here - I tried my usual grind up the tree but found that by Caledon I had no desire or will to slog through the Dinae and Emerald as I just could not make them work for me...luckily I had enough free XP to jump to Leander and am able to on average make it work acceptably (around 50k average damage now I have the hang of it - mostly guns!) but I must say to me the British line just feels Wrong!

 

Sitting in a smoke cloud and spamming AP and the occasional surprise torpedo attack is acceptable behaviour for a DD but for a RN ship it just seems the exact opposite of the whole ethos of the Royal Navy whose oldest axiom has always been 'steer towards the sound of the guns!' - if I was able to change anything at all about the line it would be to flatten the gun trajectories to enable then to hit at range and to give them a touch more survivability.

I confess it is mostly down to my playstyle but being able to hit the target and survive a hit or two in return with the option to withdraw under cover of smoke and repair and return to the fight seems more in keeping with the RN than lurking in a smoke cloud or camping behind an island. 

[Chiledip]

Ok, since we disagree, obviously, I have only one question for you:

 

How would you rate state of the game at this point? You can exclude RN. And an honest answer, without explaining why. Do you think game improved since CBT/OBT apart from added content?

 

Oh, on a side note, those cruisers are super aggressive. More aggressive and in your face style then anything we have in game. But that is not what community want. They want another line of Zao's. That's what they want. A line in which even the shittiest of players will perform quite nice. Instead they got line that outperform Zao, but you need to put effort in it. And that's too much for them.

 

Give me an honest answer for my question, and I be on my way, I think I said enough for one topic.

 

I can't comment on long term, I have only been around at all for 3 months. 

 

Where the game is at now I can comment. I don't like to give a fast answer without qualification really, everything needs context. But in brief, good basic idea, not being driven in the right direction (or any direction) and sadly will not reach it's potential.

In general WG are painting by numbers, what we have ended up with is an equation and not a piece of art.

Happy to explain these thoughts if you require.

[C4PT41N_0BV10US]

No, that's enough for me. Thanks for discussion and I'm out!

 

 

[damo74]

A purely personal view here - I tried my usual grind up the tree but found that by Caledon I had no desire or will to slog through the Dinae and Emerald as I just could not make them work for me...luckily I had enough free XP to jump to Leander and am able to on average make it work acceptably (around 50k average damage now I have the hang of it - mostly guns!) but I must say to me the British line just feels Wrong!

 

Sitting in a smoke cloud and spamming AP and the occasional surprise torpedo attack is acceptable behaviour for a DD but for a RN ship it just seems the exact opposite of the whole ethos of the Royal Navy whose oldest axiom has always been 'steer towards the sound of the guns!' - if I was able to change anything at all about the line it would be to flatten the gun trajectories to enable then to hit at range and to give them a touch more survivability.

I confess it is mostly down to my playstyle but being able to hit the target and survive a hit or two in return with the option to withdraw under cover of smoke and repair and return to the fight seems more in keeping with the RN than lurking in a smoke cloud or camping behind an island. 

 

I agree, I don't like all the skulking and hiding that is necessary with these cruisers.

[Chiledip]

Some rumours floating around that tiers 3 - 7 may be losing their heals, although this has been denied on the Russian server. Can't see them doing that myself but have a look if you are interested.

 

[CavScorpion_2014]

A purely personal view here - I tried my usual grind up the tree but found that by Caledon I had no desire or will to slog through the Dinae and Emerald as I just could not make them work for me...luckily I had enough free XP to jump to Leander and am able to on average make it work acceptably (around 50k average damage now I have the hang of it - mostly guns!) but I must say to me the British line just feels Wrong!

 

Sitting in a smoke cloud and spamming AP and the occasional surprise torpedo attack is acceptable behaviour for a DD but for a RN ship it just seems the exact opposite of the whole ethos of the Royal Navy whose oldest axiom has always been 'steer towards the sound of the guns!' - if I was able to change anything at all about the line it would be to flatten the gun trajectories to enable then to hit at range and to give them a touch more survivability.

I confess it is mostly down to my playstyle but being able to hit the target and survive a hit or two in return with the option to withdraw under cover of smoke and repair and return to the fight seems more in keeping with the RN than lurking in a smoke cloud or camping behind an island. 

 

Exactly how I feel, I skipped 4/5 too, it becomes playable and unique at T6 but not exactly competitive.

 

I'd even settle for the complete lack of survivability for decent arcs!

​

[44smok]

Strange. I actually found tiers 4 and 5 to be quite fun in their own way. Guess that accepting the limited nature of a ship makes you play it with less stress. I'm still not finding these two competitive but they're certainly not as useless as people tend to describe them.

[Redgecohones]

Y'know, theres a couple of problems I have with the conversation between Chile and Dropsiq.

 

First off the assumption that the British Cruiser was made 'high skill cap' by design rather than accident. Imho, this is a fig leaf to cover that, due to various influences/feedback, they backed themselves into a corner from which they were seemingly unable to extricate themselves.

 

Were it the case that it was deliberate, one would think they would have been testing the waters/dropping hints of this in the promotion of the line long before release. As others have stated it's business wise a foolish thing to block the majority of players from a highly anticipated line (certainly as a FIRST RELEASE). The total muck up of the implementation of the early line (ineffectual heals added day before live release etc - emerald at one point became the only HE equipped British CL (one can perhaps see why) only for that to be rescinded later) doesn't exactly speak to 'all according to plan'.

 

The other is that we're looking at a either/or choice in game development. Is it entirely impossible to create a ship that can be played casually but which rewards skilled play much more?

 

Even if one accepts that one package cannot do all, what exactly prevents wargaming (if they really are interested in competitive play -  not i have to say a certain assumption) from offering a parallel 'Pro' hull in a ships module tree that offers that tougher but more rewarding experience to those who can make it work whilst the ordinary mortals putter around in their more standard gaming experience hull?

 

Historicity? Surely that has been put largely to rest as a valid objection by the fantasy physics of this release and various other necessary gameplay fudges that have been added in other lines and indeed have existed since the games very inception?

[Admiral_noodle]

To be fair to WG the changes made last minute were to the guns. The armour and squishiness and the fact they were designed as light cruisers were always going to make them more challenging than let's say, German bbs. So I think WG can be given the benefit of the doubt. The AP only design doesn't actually increase the skill cap. You don't get to skilfully swap ammo. You just have to pick the right targets and aim right. In fact the AP only is rather dependent on the opponents skill (part of the AP only frustration).

 

But yeah. WG could have hinted they would be hard to master because of their lack of armour for ages. In fact we could have known that because historically they did have a lack of armour....

 

The thing which frustrates the most is the AP only concept. Less so at high tiers but in general the "I have no effective counter" situation is something no other ship line faces. Yes German HE is rubbish and there are other instances where the counter isn't exactly brilliant, but there is at least something you can do.

 

And that isn't something stats will pick up on. Moments of frustration do not appear in statistics. I just hope WG pickup on the frustration factor from feedback and give the line something. Even nerfed fire chance HE at least then you can finish off targets like a good CL.

 

We shall see.

[Chiledip]

Y'know, theres a couple of problems I have with the conversation between Chile and Dropsiq.

 

First off the assumption that the British Cruiser was made 'high skill cap' by design rather than accident. Imho, this is a fig leaf to cover that, due to various influences/feedback, they backed themselves into a corner from which they were seemingly unable to extricate themselves.

 

Were it the case that it was deliberate, one would think they would have been testing the waters/dropping hints of this in the promotion of the line long before release. As others have stated it's business wise a foolish thing to block the majority of players from a highly anticipated line (certainly as a FIRST RELEASE). The total muck up of the implementation of the early line (ineffectual heals added day before live release etc - emerald at one point became the only HE equipped British CL (one can perhaps see why) only for that to be rescinded later).

 

The other is that we're looking at a either/or choice in game development. Is it entirely impossible to create a ship that can be played casually but which rewards skilled play much more?

 

Even if one accepts that one package cannot do all, what exactly prevents wargaming (if they really are interested in competitive play -  not i have to say a certain assumption) from offering a parallel 'Pro' hull in a ships module tree that offers that tougher but more rewarding experience to those who can make it work whilst the ordinary mortals putter around in their more standard gaming experience hull?

 

Historicity? Surely that has been put largely to rest as a valid objection by the fantasy physics of this release and various other necessary gameplay fudges that have been added in other lines and indeed have existed since the games very inception?

 

I agree with much of what you have said. Nothing I can disagree with at all. Hope you don't have too much of a problem with what I have said, if you did, maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

 

Agree about the "high skill cap" thing.

Agree that something can be high skill cap but not exclusive. Take the "awp" in counter strike. Usable by all in a basic way and very enjoyable to all. Those with great map awareness, game sense, movement and mechanics are devastating with this weapon. Well designed weapon with high skill cap. Compare that to British cruisers.

 

Agree about having a variant hull etc to give highly skilled cruiser players options in terms of game style etc, good idea.

 

Yes I hope that we have put the "historically correct"  theories to bed, That was like having to argue with your kids that santa isn't real.

 

No idea if the "design" was deliberate or just stumbled upon and fudged together, I suspect the latter. Did seem to have more tests than Sputnik. The design was more about what it wasn't going to have than what it was going to be able do. WG would have seen that the most frustrating thing that most skippers complain about is HE spam. It would have been their biggest complaint as getting on towards half of the WG player base are BB skippers. This was taken into account wholly and the fact that cruisers are all but extinct and the meta is awful was ignored. This cruiser was not going to have HE, the rest may have been up for grabs. They realised that they needed to gimmick the ships up with the absence of HE, mortar guns and citadels that are bigger than St Paul's cathedral. Hence the smoke and the maserati like acceleration. Looks like a cobbled-together, ill-conceived line to me.

[Redgecohones]

To be fair to WG the changes made last minute were to the guns. The armour and squishiness and the fact they were designed as light cruisers were always going to make them more challenging than let's say, German bbs. So I think WG can be given the benefit of the doubt. The AP only design doesn't actually increase the skill cap. You don't get to skilfully swap ammo. You just have to pick the right targets and aim right. In fact the AP only is rather dependent on the opponents skill (part of the AP only frustration).

 

But yeah. WG could have hinted they would be hard to master because of their lack of armour for ages. In fact we could have known that because historically they did have a lack of armour....

 

The thing which frustrates the most is the AP only concept. Less so at high tiers but in general the "I have no effective counter" situation is something no other ship line faces. Yes German HE is rubbish and there are other instances where the counter isn't exactly brilliant, but there is at least something you can do.

 

And that isn't something stats will pick up on. Moments of frustration do not appear in statistics. I just hope WG pickup on the frustration factor from feedback and give the line something. Even nerfed fire chance HE at least then you can finish off targets like a good CL.

 

We shall see.

I'm mostly in agreement with your later points but do feel the need to point out the bolded text. Given the general fragility of the line and thus the need to make your shots count and the fact that you need to manuevre, potentially drop torps to force a broadside etc I'm not sure how that doesn't count as a contributor to the skill requirement?

[Redgecohones]

I may have come across slightly harsh with my attack on the historical aspect. What i'm advocating is not for ex. a 'Space Battleship' Yamato variant ( ) but more that for the purpose of game balance theres surely a hell of a lot of fudging available which won't 'trigger' people too hard.

 

[Redgecohones]

 

I agree with much of what you have said. Nothing I can disagree with at all. Hope you don't have too much of a problem with what I have said, if you did, maybe I didn't explain myself well enough.

 

 

Oh, and like i said, i had a problem with the thrust of conversation, not the people.

[BlueMoon51]

Some rumours floating around that tiers 3 - 7 may be losing their heals, although this has been denied on the Russian server. Can't see them doing that myself but have a look if you are interested.

 

 

given how poorly they have been received, thus far a nerf would be outrageous, although with WG it's anyones guess 

[Deckeru_Maiku]

RN Cruisers.. at first I was like http://worldofwarships.eu/de/community/accounts/527881886-Deckeru_Maiku/!/pvp/ships/?bestShip=warspite

 

After playing them a bit and learning what to do (and what not to do) with them I am like http://worldofwarships.eu/de/community/accounts/535306049-Deckero_Maiko/!/pvp/ships/?bestShip=caledon

 

Yes, I use every cover I can get. Mostly big, immobile things like islands or BBs... From there I use the high arched ballistics to my advantage, like one does it with so many US DDs or the St. Louis, which can shoot over islands very nicely, too.

Smoke is used when I have enemies getting too close to me. Or when there is a convenient spot to shoot at several targets, that are spotted by my teammates.

 

And quite often, I use the speed and agility of the RN cruisers to come out from behind an island and rush an enemy BB. Most often, when it's already engaged by others or when I see it's turrets facing far away from me, so I can have a couple seconds to approach.

 

Is that a sneaky playstyle? Sure it is. Do you need a lot of skill for it? Not really. Just patience. And for the torpedo run some balls. These last two seem to be rarely seen in WoWs.

And of course some map awareness helps, too.

 

[Ryuuteimaru]

Frist Cruiser where I've been unable to kill a carrier one on one, pathetic.

[FionnMacC]

While I don't object to the RN being the first to have a complete Light Cruiser line, I'll agree that there does appear to be several problems with at least the lower tiers. No complaints about the T1 Black Swan, seems fine in all aspects. 

With the T2-5 (Weymouth, Caledon, Danae, Emerald) manoeuvring is about right (speed, acceleration, turning), so that has been modelled correctly & the torpedoes for T3-5 are excellent. But all the ships suffer badly with over-sized citadels & the armour doesn't function properly. These are NOT thin-hulled ships in comparison with their contemporaries; Weymouth is in the middle of the tier 2 light cruisers, Caledon is actually BETTER armoured than most of T3's CL's (only the St. Louis has better armour but the low hit points point towards much thinner armour than shown), and T4 & 5 - Danae & Emerald - are at least as well-armoured as the Phoenix & Omaha, better armoured than the Karlsruhe, Konigsberg AND the Kirov. 

Also the shell arcs are too high, & the velocity too low - it should be 861 m/s for all RN 6 inch guns in Tier 2 to 5, & the omission of the HE rounds... ugh. Neither do the SAP rounds work properly; they should penetrate armour only slightly less effectively than other nation's light AP rounds, but with a larger amount of explosive they should cause MORE damage when they penetrate. I can't comment on the dispersion above T3 yet, but I'm hoping it's not as bad as some comments suggest; these should be fairly accurate guns overall. 

I'm hoping that these are teething troubles that will be addressed with the next patch or two; if fire-spamming is a problem, then maybe a lower OVERALL fire % for all nations would be a better idea than removing a vital ammunition type from all RN ships.

[Admiral_noodle]

Re: armour. It's a combination of no armour AND wider beam AND position of citadels. You're right Kirov has no armour but that usually means BB overpens all the time. Meanwhile I can citadel a Kirov with a Murmansk. Firing HE...

[Hades_warrior]

Caledon is actually BETTER armoured than most of T3's CL's (only the St. Louis has better armour but the low hit points point towards much thinner armour than shown), and T4 & 5 - Danae & Emerald - are at least as well-armoured as the Phoenix & Omaha, better armoured than the Karlsruhe, Konigsberg AND the Kirov.

 

I really hope this is true. Im planing tonight buy Danae, and Ive played before Karlsruhe and Konigsberg, and with this 2nd I had a lot of problems with armor. Karl is not so problematic as Konigsberg IMO.

[44Lbs]

 

If you are going to come out with BS, try posting Screenshots of 1. more than 1 game and 2. of tiers 3, 4 and 5 as well.

Ok here you go 

 

[44Lbs]

these are CL not CA or BC so just a slightly heavier DD.

 

They are very hard to play you cant quiet play them like a DD and cant play them as a CA finding that niche where this ship works is hard but once you do these ships shine you need to get used to island hugging making the most of your approach and using smoke to cover retreats follow DDs and borrow thier smoke get it wrong and 80% of the time their is no second chance get it right and well take a look

 

 

 

i have played through the line so far and i don't plan to skip any my advice is play them all and get used to them and get used to getting spanked a lot these ships are squishy but a whole lot of fun

 

and yes took a few goes i think this was my 5th fight in the Danae

 

on a side note i have noticed these ships seem to spontaneously com-bust if a HE shell lands even close to the ships

 

Squishy and Flammable