Seriously unbalanced ships - that now needs some balance.

[Crusherheads]

Was we can see mostly how ships are bad realy bad at ranked, with they couldnt been see much at random.

 

Atago, Kutuzov, Tirpitz, bismarck, NC, Benson, fubuki - Are the most popular ships at ranked with brings was well Chapayev for those that dont have the premium ship's cruisers.

 

Mogami, hipper, new orlands, Tashken, Amagi are the most under rated ships for ranked.

 

And honestly this sadness me for this boats not to be was good was they have been or could been, and i do think some rework should be done to them really. Or otherwise this game is literally a "pay to win" game, and for the fanclub that says its not, atm IT is.

 

Amagi - can do some good punch once in a while but her armor can be veary squichy agains the others BBs, but yeah she can perform quite well on hands of good captain, though if that same captain in on most competitive BBs he could wreck alot more, so why play amagi?

 

Mogami - once had her 17-18km range got nerfed to the ground to around 14-15km range, with sadness me since she can be a paper boat and easely taken out, and Dev team lisening to the whiners to nerf her, seriously?

 

Tashken - simple cant go agains benson or fubuki because he will be first to be spoted and to be taken down aka main focus for cruisers, battleships and by DDs, due of his lack of concealment the boat can pop smoke and shot, but you know smoke brings attention of enemy radar or torpedos so u cant stay there that long.

 

Hipper - main focus of the BBs since its big, slubish/slow, and his armor suck's....not to mention the range of his guns and the lack of HE performance is quite bad....

 

New orlands - same was mogami but worse on concealment... and ofc weapon range...

 

Honestly, why does premium cruisers such kutuzov or Atago, with Kutuzov having smoke and weapon range and good chance of fire, and also atago that has the health kit, concealment, good torpedo layout, be better than remain tiers 8 Cruisers? simple why is that?

Probably to sell it better. *cough*

 

Amagi armor layout sadness me...been citadeled in the butt...rly?

 

The thing is, theres many issues, some of this boats that are unpopular in ranked, aint so bad at random battles and meanwhile some are... Meantime premium boats has better performance than regular ones, and i do think some balances should be made. Dev team should really not pay much attention to the community and start rework in some boats, such a example, bring the old range for Mogami?

 

The more this game develops, the more the old ships get punishment and needs some re-balance. I aint writing about nerf's other ships, but simple balance up and buff this less popular ships to bring them apar against the premium ship's.

 

Chapayev is kinda competitive due her radar and weapons range with is the most favorite out of the regular boats such mogami/new orlands.

 

Once again this ships that are so unpopular should be on par or balanced compared to other ships, instent of been forgoten...and honestly in this situation for the Fanclub carebeers atm at this situation we are speaking of "pay to win" and dont come saying its not, because it is.

 

This is some examples with are quite noticeable, special in ranked bringing the fact that some ships are most competitive than others, in a LARGE margin.

 

Resuming: For those that cant be arsse to read full script, i simple talking about some ships such was cruiser's need to be rebalanced and rework (with all the nerfs they had aka for example Mogami) to be competitive compared to the premium ones, with chapayev been most balance between the unbalanced ones, and the game is been developed so fast, that some boats are simple been dragged behinde, meantime premium boats are far superior than regular ones.

[KaraMon]

 

 

Honestly, why does premium cruisers such kutuzov or Atago, with Kutuzov having smoke and weapon range and good chance of fire, and also atago that has the health kit, concealment, good torpedo layout, be better than remain tiers 8 Cruisers? simple why is that?

Probably to sell it better. *cough*

 

 

 

When atago was "equal" to other t8 cruisers the tomato soup raged that it is "unplayable crap" so Wg had to buff it so the potatoes could make positive income

 

Worst possible players asked for a buff and they got it , no one thought about the ship and how players with brain will perform in it

[Crusherheads]

 

 

When atago was "equal" to other t8 cruisers the tomato soup raged that it is "unplayable crap" so Wg had to buff it so the potatoes could make positive income

 

Exacly, and the same potatos cryed because Mogami was TO op, and now its useless, so sad....

[dasCKD]

In terms of the Amagi, she is an excellent battleship due to the fact that even one of her salvoes are guarenteed to cripple pretty much any cruiser. She just performs better at hit and run battles and not for the competitive and drawn out way team battles play.

 

Mogami is inferior to the Atago, but she can be made superior or at least different by buffing the turn rate of her turrets.

 

Chapayev is perfectly competitive with the Kuzutov. She trades the smoke for an excellent radar suite and guns that are lethal against cruisers at even high ranges.

 

Tashkent is shafted in ranked, but like the Amagi she appears to be performing perfectly in randoms.

 

New Orleans does suck, mostly because AA on most ships are so good that the idea of an AA specialized ship is quite pointless.

 

Except for two of the ships mentioned here, most ships that aren't used in ranked could perform just as well if not better in randoms. They're not unbalanced as much as they are unsuited for the way that ranked games flows with the static war of attrition. Ultimately we can't balance these for ranked because no matter what randoms will still overwhelmingly be played over ranked battles and so balancing should prioritize randoms over ranked.

[AgarwaenME]

Firstly, you're never going to make ships be as valuable in ranked 7v7 as in randoms 12v12. Thus whatever you change you'll make ships relatively better or worse for either. And if anything t8 ranked this season is absurdly much better than t7 ranked last season.

 

On top of this, even minor effective differences mixed with perceived differences and the current meta, causes people to avoid using ships they perceive as worse or that are just marginally worse. For example the amagi, which while not as well armoured has by far the best guns of any t8 BB.

 

/also, part of the reason for those premiums popularity in ranked.. is that they're premium and have economy benefits. The MK is pretty unspectacular unless your team needs its AAA (much like the NC who has just as bad or worse broadside armour as the Amagi, but who can be semi immune against enemy planes).

[Takru]

Was we can see mostly how ships are bad realy bad at ranked, with they couldnt been see much at random.

 

Just tells you that ships are situationally better or less suited to specific environments. Balancing can not, must not and never will be made around a singular game mode.

[Skullcap]

Every game which has a ranked based system implemented will have a specific set of good builds which work well, in WoWs terms its specific ships which work well with the current meta. The meta changes with each ranked season based upon ship lines released and how gameplay changes may have effected it.

 

You could never have everything viable as then you would have to have every single line be a copy of its rival, same guns, same armour, same speed, same consumables, etc etc, that would be theo nly way you could make every ship viable, it doens't work like that in games and nore should it, because that is quite frankly boring as **** to play.

 

So either get the good ships, or git gud and use subpar ships, or just don't play rank battles in the first place if your going to complain about the injustices of diverse ship to ship characteristics and some not actually being good in ranked.

[Vanhal]

Ranked is such a specific mode that even if the ships would differ by promiles, the one would be still hailed as "da best" and ranked would be full of it. it's just people have mental image like in mobile autoplay games, totally ignoring that here the ships make for little minority and player skills for vast majority of "being good".

[_Flyto_]

The only "pay2win" part of this is that the undisputed best T8 cruisers are both premiums. This has been true for a long time, and I agree that it's problematic.

 

Otherwise, meh. Bismarck is probably better than Tirpitz for ranked, and I'm not seeing any vast numbers of Lo Yangs around.

 

On the wider balance issue - ships are different to one another. Sure, some are generally better than others, but not by a huge amount - and even if everything were perfectly balanced for one game mode, they would be unbalanced for a different game mode. You'll always find that some ships are better for Ranked, while some are better for Epicentre, some for Std Battles, etc.

[Crusherheads]

 

Just tells you that ships are situationally better or less suited to specific environments. Balancing can not, must not and never will be made around a singular game mode.

 

That can quite sad...but why not make them abit more suited for that kind of singular game mode? meantime only the premiums can do both...

[Crusherheads]

Every game which has a ranked based system implemented will have a specific set of good builds which work well, in WoWs terms its specific ships which work well with the current meta. The meta changes with each ranked season based upon ship lines released and how gameplay changes may have effected it.

 

You could never have everything viable as then you would have to have every single line be a copy of its rival, same guns, same armour, same speed, same consumables, etc etc, that would be theo nly way you could make every ship viable, it doens't work like that in games and nore should it, because that is quite frankly boring as **** to play.

 

So either get the good ships, or git gud and use subpar ships, or just don't play rank battles in the first place if your going to complain about the injustices of diverse ship to ship characteristics and some not actually being good in ranked.

 

Yeah i got your point, although why would same tiers, perform Away superior than others? that my point... Not saying for example Mogami to have a health Kit like Atago, but for example to have better turret rotation or range increased? that where my thoughs are goin.

[dasCKD]

 

That can quite sad...but why not make them abit more suited for that kind of singular game mode? meantime only the premiums can do both...

 

The Mikhail isn't THAT suited for competitive battles. In team battles or clan battles, the only reason people (or at least the people I play with) fields the MK in team is to repel the enemy carrier. The bow on an reverse thing makes even a fully specced North Car potentially vulnerable to a CV attack if not for cruiser support. In most cases, the Atago is fielded instead due to her heal pack that makes her able to bounce back from being hammered. Most of the tier 8 cruisers aren't great for competitive high staked battles. New Orlenes because she's a floating XP chest. Hipper and Prinz because they can't slip into the flanks to work the enemy's broadside in competitive battles. Mogami because her HP pool and armor makes her too vulnerable to being focused. Chapayev because she can't perform her roles as a long range anti-BB artillery piece and short range anti-DD reconnaissance at the same time. Mikhail because if she gets spotted once in her usual role (short range in-smoke fire spamming) she'll get turned into matchwood.

[Crusherheads]

The only "pay2win" part of this is that the undisputed best T8 cruisers are both premiums. This has been true for a long time, and I agree that it's problematic.

 

Otherwise, meh. Bismarck is probably better than Tirpitz for ranked, and I'm not seeing any vast numbers of Lo Yangs around.

 

On the wider balance issue - ships are different to one another. Sure, some are generally better than others, but not by a huge amount - and even if everything were perfectly balanced for one game mode, they would be unbalanced for a different game mode. You'll always find that some ships are better for Ranked, while some are better for Epicentre, some for Std Battles, etc.

 

True enough although for example Chapayev is kinda balanced with the kutuzov, when kutuzov got smoke and more range, chapayev has more or less the range and the radar, with is a quite good comparation and in terms of balance between Regular ship to a premium, unlike the Mogami to Atago.

[Crusherheads]

Ranked is such a specific mode that even if the ships would differ by promiles, the one would be still hailed as "da best" and ranked would be full of it. it's just people have mental image like in mobile autoplay games, totally ignoring that here the ships make for little minority and player skills for vast majority of "being good".

 

Though remember the same good player can perform good at lets say amagi or Mogami, then he could do ALOT better at bismarck or Atago...making the issue at ships and not the player itself.

[Crusherheads]

 

The Mikhail isn't THAT suited for competitive battles. In team battles or clan battles, the only reason people (or at least the people I play with) fields the MK in team is to repel the enemy carrier. The bow on an reverse thing makes even a fully specced North Car potentially vulnerable to a CV attack if not for cruiser support. In most cases, the Atago is fielded instead due to her heal pack that makes her able to bounce back from being hammered.

 

True enough though dont forget that MK with her range can have more survival than a cruiser of range 15km for example new orlands? Not to mention MK has smoke to increase more the survival. But you got the Chapayev was regular and good trading for a regular ship if you dont own MK.

 

Now put new orlands or mogami survival to MK, how you think it will fair?

[Skullcap]

 

Yeah i got your point, although why would same tiers, perform Away superior than others? that my point... Not saying for example Mogami to have a health Kit like Atago, but for example to have better turret rotation or range increased? that where my thoughs are goin.

 

It had better range when AFT used to effect 155mm and it used to have better turret turning aswell. However it was absurbly OP and they nerfed it pretty hard, now its somewhat in line with other tier 8s. Personally I would have removed the 155mm guns outright when they moved it to tier 8, because the mogami with 155mm was a light cruiser and the mogami we have ingame is the heavy cruiser refit the mogami got with the 203mms to make her more sea worthy and just better in general.

 

They could remove the 155mms and make the 203mms better and mogami would probably be a overall better ship imo than it currently is, but well WG is ignoring cruisers for gameplay changes and adjustments at the moment so I wouldn't expect anything different.

 

Either way, you never going to have same tier ships be equal to each other, nore can you ever make them equal without making the cookiecutter copies of each other as I mentioned in previous thread. Mogami could probably do with a change to reflect her as she was in heavy cruiser setup, rather the the frankstein monster she is trying to be at the moment.

 

Honestly WG just has to go back to the drawing board and fix Cruisers in general, that would solve alot of issues in the first place.

 

Anyway, you could look at any tiers, e.g. BB tier 9s, Izumo vs Freidrich vs Iowa, Izumo is crap compared to the other two, the only thing she has going for her is frontal on and accurate guns, otherwise she is inferior to the other two, but you don't see WG doing anything about it either.

 

There is alot that could be done and sorted out in general, its just weather or not WG  will actually work on it or not, were a year on in live environment and honestly not much has changed since closed beta besides odd meta shifts every few months which revolve around line introductions or minor mechanic changes.

[RenamedUser_92906789]

I wish they fix this ship so it feels good again.

They could release ARP missions so one could have both builds. Dont know if they are thinking of selling it as a premium, but that would be stupid. Wish they would give us a good T8 destroyer or cruisers as premium ... I would like to see Yugoslav destroyer Dubrovnik!

[ColonelPete]

WG said it again and again.

Ships are not balanced for ranked battles, but for standard battles.

[avenger121]

1. Ships are balanced around the random mode, not 7vs7 ranked.

 

2. Atago is not the result of raging tomatoes but rather WGs left hand not knowing what the right hand does. Over 1 year ago, the Atago had far less firepower than the pre-nerf Myoko and also less than the pre-nerf 155 Mogami. Both the Myoko and the Mogami kind of overperformed at that time, so WG´s right hand buffed the Atago to compete with the Myoko and Mogami while the left hand needed several months to nerf the non prem counterparts.

 

 

 

 

 

The Mikhail isn't THAT suited for competitive battles. In team battles or clan battles, the only reason people (or at least the people I play with) fields the MK in team is to repel the enemy carrier. The bow on an reverse thing makes even a fully specced North Car potentially vulnerable to a CV attack if not for cruiser support. In most cases, the Atago is fielded instead due to her heal pack that makes her able to bounce back from being hammered. Most of the tier 8 cruisers aren't great for competitive high staked battles. New Orlenes because she's a floating XP chest. Hipper and Prinz because they can't slip into the flanks to work the enemy's broadside in competitive battles. Mogami because her HP pool and armor makes her too vulnerable to being focused. Chapayev because she can't perform her roles as a long range anti-BB artillery piece and short range anti-DD reconnaissance at the same time. Mikhail because if she gets spotted once in her usual role (short range in-smoke fire spamming) she'll get turned into matchwood.

 

Have you watched the OMC cup or other competitive matches in the last time? MK is not only for anti CV duties but mainly for the smoke and the Chapayev was one of the reasons the US teams lost so bad against the EU. Ranked is not identical, but very similar.

[Sub_Eleven]

@ OP;

 

Not gonna comment on the Amagi because I don't play battleboats, but regarding the higher tier non premium cruisers;

 

at lest you noticed there are some problems there, you have one up over wargaming already! They are still like

 

[T0byJug]

WG said it again and again.

Ships are not balanced for ranked battles, but for standard battles.

 

This.     Prim examples

 

Tirpitz  is probably the best BB for ranked. In normal games her 15inch guns have problems when facing tier 9 and 10 BBs. But this is ranked she is always top tier she is a beast.

Fubuki!! Stealthy torpedo monster in a high target game of 12 V 12. No where near as good in ranked (less targets)

[olmedreca]

WG said it again and again.

Ships are not balanced for ranked battles, but for standard battles.

 

Atago and Kutuzov clearly outperform all other T8 cruisers in standard battles too.

[ColonelPete]

ColonelPete, on 06 October 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

WG said it again and again.
Ships are not balanced for ranked battles, but for standard battles.

 

Atago and Kutuzov clearly outperform all other T8 cruisers in standard battles too.

Chapayev brings nearly the same performance with stock grind and probably less experienced playerbase.

[Sub_Eleven]

Chapayev brings nearly the same performance with stock grind and probably less experienced playerbase.

 

only by the grace of russian bias though.

[Takeda92]

The "ships are balanced for random, not for ranked" doesn't apply when Atago and Kutuzov are still the top cruisers and New Orleans is the worst ship at tier 8.