Could new proposed economy changes tackle the big problem of non-CAPing DDs (especially at high Tier)?

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

For me one of the most frustrating aspects of "teamplay" is big problem of non-CAPing DDs (especially at high Tier)... when friendly DDs simply do not want to CAP (despite all the pleads in the chat and 100% sure fact that we will surely loose the"Domination" game without CAPs) - they instead happily go around torping from MAX distance and essentially do nothing of use for the team (and they love hugging the edge of the map doing that)... this makes my blood literally boil...

 

 

So... will the proposed economy changes below alter anything in that regard or it will (possibly) encourage such behavior even more?

 

 

 

Improved In-game Economics

 

In order to make the calculation of XP and Credits earned in battle fairer, the following factors are now taken into account:

• Enemy ships and squadrons spotted
• Damage caused by allies to enemies spotted by you
• Potential damage dealt/received

The overall logic behind granting Credits and XP per battle was reworked to include the above changes. Consequently, if a player carries out useful actions (causing damage, fighting for control of key areas, supporting allies etc.), their average rewards will not change compared to Update 0.5.11. However, players whose behaviour is mostly "one-dimensional" (for example, battleship players that stay away from the heat of battle and try to only cause damage to the enemy, rather than lead the attack; or destroyer players that focus on capturing key areas but do not perform any reconnaissance) will be less generously rewarded.

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Allied_Winter]

These tweaks work differently than one might expect.

 

Basically WG had two choices. Two players, one supporting the team and one not. Either you up the rewards for the "good" player while keeping them the same for the "bad" player or, keep the rewards the same for the "good" player and lowere the rewards (=punish) for the "bad" player. WG went for the later. Basically, the overall XP a player can generate throughout a battle has not changed and therefore the XP/Credit ratios are now different for different actions.

 

If you're a supportive (in that case: DD) player before 0.5.12 you'll do well after 0.5.12 because nothing will change for you. If, by any chance however, you're a DD that torps from the edge of the map, you'll suddenly get less XP because you get no spotting XP.

 

I don't know how much less credits one will get for not executing proper teamplay (spotting, capping).

 

 

Greetings

[Vanhal]

Basically WG had two choices. Two players, one supporting the team and one not. Either you up the rewards for the "good" player while keeping them the same for the "bad" player or, keep the rewards the same for the "good" player and lowere the rewards (=punish) for the "bad" player. WG went for the later.

 

There could be also third way - decrease rewards for 'bad" player, while increasing for "good" ones, so it will keep the global rewards gain mostly the same.

But it's not the option for WG apparently, in their mindset there is only one possibility - nerf, because if it is just like you (and their site) described, the global rewards will drop drastically, considering apparently not many players will play like the WG want it to play. Moreover, the criteria for rewards are not revealed, so even if someone want to educate himself, what WG thinks is a good play (and therefore rewarded, because most players tend to gravitate towards most optimal scheme, hence the camping on all classes), he's out of luck and need to try, which is not easy because single player practically can't get much reliable data from just his battles considering the number of variables.

 

Oh, and one more thing, apparently, there is huge economy buff for carriers incoming, as described here:

 

Anyone have some more reliable info about this?

[Allied_Winter]

 

Oh, and one more thing, apparently, there is huge economy buff for carriers incoming, as described here:

 

Anyone have some more reliable info about this?

 

What do you mean with "reliable info"? Datamined values are directly from the client. In this case it's "only" the PTS and we have to see, if these changes make it to the live server.

 

 

And for the XP income: I think Notser made a video, where he stated, that the overall income stays the same. So, yeah, nerf and so on like you said.

 

 

Greetings

[Verdius]

Hi all,

 

For me one of the most frustrating aspects of "teamplay" is big problem of non-CAPing DDs (especially at high Tier)

 

So... will the proposed economy changes below alter anything in that regard or it will (possibly) encourage such behavior even more?

 

 

 destroyer players that focus on capturing key areas ... will be less generously rewarded.

 

I don't think even WG knows what they want. 

[Nechrom]

Capping has been one of the most rewarding actions you can do in a battle for quite a while now.

 

If anything, this change in the next patch will shift some of the capping rewards over to spotting and spotting damage.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

Capping has been one of the most rewarding actions you can do in a battle for quite a while now.

 

If anything, this change in the next patch will shift some of the capping rewards over to spotting and spotting damage.

 

 

And this is exactly what I am "afraid" of... DDs that will not want to CAP even more...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[Allied_Winter]

Hi all,

And this is exactly what I am "afraid" of... DDs that will not want to CAP even more...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

The thing is, if you don't cap and don't spot (usually those two go hand in hand) than your income will take a down fall. Sure we don't know by how much, but it could have an effect on the snipers if they get lower and lower rewards for their playstyle.

 

 

On the other hand, running away and loosing didn't gave you that much as well, and still lots of players do it.

 

 

Greetings

[JimmieTheSaint]

I fly a DD's, and in higher tier games I do not Cap (to begin with), and I am extremely tired of players whining about me having to go Cap zone X, Y, Z.... 

 

I sit in my Tashkent, wich might have a DD symbol on it, but wich is bigger than most (small) cruisers. So no I wont go cap a zone before I have a feel for the battleground, where people are, and how I can Cap without getting killed.

'Cause the only team I help by storming in there trying to catch a Cap without the info I need to sail safe is the Red team.! 

 

I know quite a few Captains wich have it the same way. 

It is not our duty to go bravely forth and just get killed (although I see the irony in me sailing russian DD's here ;-) ), it's better to have them DD's survive to Cap later, and maybe even get some damage in or areal denial. 

Another thing is that most of the ships lying on range using Torps would be IJN's, and those are freagging deadly at that, and not really that usefull up close. (Wich will be changed with the changes, but for now)

 

So quit your jabbin'. As long as  you do your job, I will do mine. You might not like the way I do it, but hey I can always go play for the Red team. ;-) 

 

 

[Scawl_D_Balls]

Hi all,

 

For me one of the most frustrating aspects of "teamplay" is big problem of non-CAPing DDs

 

Hi OP,

 

You have one DD in your fleet and don't perform very well in it.

You have no right to criticise Destroyer players unless you can consistently demonstrate how to play them properly in PvP battles.

 

I don't tell a baker how to bake bread. A baker won't tell me how to organise a computer network.

[NoirLotus]

I fly a DD's, and in higher tier games I do not Cap (to begin with), and I am extremely tired of players whining about me having to go Cap zone X, Y, Z.... 

 

I sit in my Tashkent, wich might have a DD symbol on it, but wich is bigger than most (small) cruisers. So no I wont go cap a zone before I have a feel for the battleground, where people are, and how I can Cap without getting killed.

'Cause the only team I help by storming in there trying to catch a Cap without the info I need to sail safe is the Red team.! 

 

I know quite a few Captains wich have it the same way. 

It is not our duty to go bravely forth and just get killed (although I see the irony in me sailing russian DD's here ;-) ), it's better to have them DD's survive to Cap later, and maybe even get some damage in or areal denial. 

Another thing is that most of the ships lying on range using Torps would be IJN's, and those are freagging deadly at that, and not really that usefull up close. (Wich will be changed with the changes, but for now)

 

So quit your jabbin'. As long as  you do your job, I will do mine. You might not like the way I do it, but hey I can always go play for the Red team. ;-) 

 

 

 

That may be the biggest flaw of the new system : RU DD really lack stealth so capping is a real risk for them and spotting is hard as it requires them to stop shooting.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

 

Hi OP,

 

You have one DD in your fleet and don't perform very well in it.

You have no right to criticise Destroyer players unless you can consistently demonstrate how to play them properly in PvP battles.

 

I don't tell a baker how to bake bread. A baker won't tell me how to organise a computer network.

 

First of all this is not about stats of any sort - this is about fundamentals of proper tactical/strategic gameplay - and DDs with their unparalleled CAPing capabilities are key here!

 

Second of all I didn't post any "Ad Hominem" here - my stats have nothing to do with this topic at all (and I do not hide my stats)!

 

Third of all my "Kamikaze R" stats are fine... I don't deal that much damage (more about this below) but I do make myself count in every single battle:

• CAP at least 1-2 CAPs per game
• Spot enemy ships for my team (and especially spot and engagel enemy DDs whenever possible) as priority

 

Why I am doing lower than average damage - see above - as DD I see myself much differently than "Only Ultimate Ship Killer"...

 

 

Leo Apollo11"

 

 

P.S.

I could mention your stats - but I (on purpose) didn't.

 

[Mayv]

Yes, DDs that dont cap can be a problem but there are many unrealistic expectations as well.

 

This happened last night. We controlled 2 of the 3  caps however we were down to 2 ships me in a Khaba and a Frederick. I had about 8000 HP and the Frederick had at least 80% of his. There was a low health DDs Moines and a Shimakaze at A, a Zao capping B, a Room capping C supported by a NC. All of these ships had most of their HP left except the Des Moines. After taking more damage from the Zao I drop smoke to brake contact when in chat I get the message 

"go cap" "don't shoot"

This is from the Frederick who is on the 8 line heading further south away from all the caps.

 

Although it doesn't compare to my favourite of map ping on your DD followed by map ping on enemy cap with 4 enemy ships on it.

[viceadmiral123]

t10 DD usually doesn't need the Exp. from capping (in rare cases that it still doesn't have 18pt captain, it can use the Exp.). You can do more damage with a DD on the defensive side, and not give out your position to enemy ships. I am surprised any t10 DD ever tries to cap.

[AndyTheCupid]

The number of times I've been obliterated trying to cap without support is too many to count, I just don't do it any longer (unless uncontested). If all shout cap and offer no support, why should I sacrifice myself? It's not just the DDs job to cap, it's a team effort and capping without support (contested) is either a death sentence, or a massive loss of HP, if you're alone.

[Lord_WC]

By any chance those non-capping DDs are not capping because 3 enemy BBs sit inside the cap circle and you are too busy hugging the white line 20km away?

Because that's all I see in high tier matches. I saw one yamato ever actually pushing a cap in all my matches. Mosty it's about two side of big BB pussies running away from each other.

 

Repeat after me - when there's an enemy near the cap zone capping is the job of the ships that has the most armor and hp pool.

[LetsRockAndRoll]

By any chance those non-capping DDs are not capping because 3 enemy BBs sit inside the cap circle and you are too busy hugging the white line 20km away?

Because that's all I see in high tier matches. I saw one yamato ever actually pushing a cap in all my matches. Mosty it's about two side of big BB pussies running away from each other.

 

Repeat after me - when there's an enemy near the cap zone capping is the job of the ships that has the most armor and hp pool.

 

 

[daki]

 

There could be also third way - decrease rewards for 'bad" player, while increasing for "good" ones, so it will keep the global rewards gain mostly the same.

 

My thought as well.

The main issue with the path WG has chosen is that it will not motivate "good" players to play more high tiers (i.e. no incentives) and it will do very little to motivate "bad" players to change their playstyle since they will still be the majority in most matches.

To note, when talking about good/bad players I am not referring to personal skill as such but rather if their action contribute or not to the team.

 

Economy wise, I would definitely increase significantly the rewards for good actions and penalize heavily bad actions (i.e. lack of actions).

I would expect that it would lead to more "good" players playing high tiers which over time will lead to improved gameplay - since at least some of the "baddies" will see and understand that the change in their playstyle is more beneficial than keeping the old.

At the same tame, punishing credit losses will discourage "bad" players of playing too much HTs.

The improvement of high tier meta is only possible with the shift of player "demographics" in high tiers.

 

Last but not least, the good thing is that WG is going in the right direction with this despite a highly questionable approach (i.e. only sticks and no carrots).

These economy parameters are rather easy to tweak and play with, so I hope that they will eventually find the right balance.

[bloodynicknames]

wanna know why I dont cap in my Gearing and Shima ?

Because my teams doesnt support me about 95% of the time. They just happily sit 5-10km behind me, driving in circles.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

This is my usual sequence of Chat messages whenever in "Domination" (and when I am, for example, in my "Tirpitz" / "North Carolina" or "New Orleans" / "Atlanta"):

 

• Hi all - good luck!
• DDs - battle plan? Which CAPs?
• Thanks for info!
• I will cover the x CAP!

 

And I will cover my DDs as close as possible and I will engage enemy DDs even with big guns (loaded with HE)...

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

 

 

P.S.

Many times it works (and whole team benefits because all know most important intentions) - but sometimes there is no answer at all and DDs go where DDs want...

[lankylad11_lankylad]

I am reluctant to immediately cap in my high tier DD essentially because if I get jumped then I get focused by all the cruisers, end up with an early trip back to port  having done 15k dmg tops and get hit with a loss of 100k+ so why take the risk.  why not wait and go where the enemy DDs aren't.  but when I am in my khaba my concealment is so lousy it doesn't really work either.  the way to get DDs to cap is to reduce the number of DDs in high tier matches by introducing a hard limit in their number so you have less chance of being jumped

[Elenortirion]

First of all this is not about stats of any sort - this is about fundamentals of proper tactical/strategic gameplay - and DDs with their unparalleled CAPing capabilities are key here!

 

not all destroyers have such unparalel capping capabilities

I'm quite convenient that there is alot of cruisers that could do capping better than russian destroyers [when solo that is]

 

as for border hugging destroyers spamming torps from max range?

haven't seen such even once

 

battleships on the other hand......

[Vanhal]

 

Last but not least, the good thing is that WG is going in the right direction with this despite a highly questionable approach (i.e. only sticks and no carrots).

These economy parameters are rather easy to tweak and play with, so I hope that they will eventually find the right balance.

 

Let's hope.

Although i must say that i would much, much more preferred generous economy, no matter if it would be good or bad, than good, but stingy one.

[NoirLotus]

 

 

as for border hugging destroyers spamming torps from max range?

haven't seen such even once

 

 

I see a lot of them !!

 

They are not hugging the border but they stay at 5 km away from the cap and never try to contest it, just spamming torps on red ships far away ...

[Hedgehog1963]

If you want DDs to cap.... Then drive a DD and cap.