Royal BB line

[BuccaneerBill]

I'm sure people will be able to cope with differing gun calibres. Why does WG think were idiots.

[0ddys]

One problem remains, the 14" of KGV aren't able to overmatch the 26mm plating of all T VIII cruiser. This is the main reason why I think the KGV will never apear with such guns in the regular techtree.

 

Also the 14" guns are not as good as many think, worse penetration than the 14" on the New Mexico, slow muzzle velocity and just the normal 2 rpm. Even the 15" which where planned for the KGV, would be inferior to the 15" on Bismarck, Tirpitz and Gneisenau. Only the better gunlayout and her softstats could make up for this weakness.

[BuccaneerBill]

New Mexico guns are shot guns though and won't have the deck pen of KGVs. Just make the KGVs 14 accurate, maybe 2.1 sigma or so and decent HE. Should be OK.

[Trainspite]

 

 

No chance WG does that. The Hood is a cash-cow in waiting. You are looking at what is arguably the most hotly anticipated ship this game could offer. At the very least up there with Tirpitz/Bismarck.

 

Fairly good chance of it actually, at least in my opinion. Hood can't be a premium while the Admiral class is in the tech tree without WG going back over their rules on leadships being the tech tree ships etc. and deliberately going for a crash grab. 

 

 

...this is why I suspect Admiral class as T7 standard and Hood as T7 Premium. Like Hipper/Prinz Eugen, New Mexico/Arizona, Gneisenau/Scharnhorst, Bismarck/Tirpitz.

 

From Admiral to KGV to Lion would be a little roller coaster in terms of gun calibre. I doubt Wargaming likes to do that.

 

Hood is the lead ship of her class, and in some documents at the time, the class was referred to as the Hood class if I remember correctly. Making Hood a premium would only be possible if WG can pull a Nurnberg-Liepzig or Dunkerque-Strasbourg with Hood and her never to be sisters, which is hard, since Bismarck and Tirpitz would be just as different in terms of gameplay especially. And if that was the case, why not make Bismarck the premium and earn even more money than Tirpitz? 

 

Hood ideally should be the tier 7 BC, and that should really be that. WG could introduce her earlier as a taster of the BC line and alternative to Nelson at tier 7 after QE or Revenge. In fact having Hood and J3 at tiers 7 and 8 as alternatives to Nelson and KGV can give the line some gun calibre progression, if they so desire to try and stick to that rule. 

 

One problem remains, the 14" of KGV aren't able to overmatch the 26mm plating of all T VIII cruiser. This is the main reason why I think the KGV will never apear with such guns in the regular techtree.

 

Also the 14" guns are not as good as many think, worse penetration than the 14" on the New Mexico, slow muzzle velocity and just the normal 2 rpm. Even the 15" which where planned for the KGV, would be inferior to the 15" on Bismarck, Tirpitz and Gneisenau. Only the better gunlayout and her softstats could make up for this weakness.

 

Not really, KGV with the 15" would be quite overpowered without nerfing. Because then the ship would have no disadvantages. Similar to North Carolina in maneuverability and AA, slightly faster, best armour at tier 8 by a long way, and having guns that are by no means bad. The 14" being 14" is KGVs only real weakness at tier 8, if she had better guns you get dangerously close the the territory of Lion.

[Jay135]

I'm with Trainspite on this. Though if I think less historically and more about gameplay, I could just about see Nelson in VIII. Lets face it, with a 356mm/14" internally sloped armor, 160mm/6.25" deck armor and able to bring all 9 guns to bear just 15° off her bows, she'd own tier VII in the current meta.

.

[Getzamatic]

One problem remains, the 14" of KGV aren't able to overmatch the 26mm plating of all T VIII cruiser. This is the main reason why I think the KGV will never apear with such guns in the regular techtree.

 

Also the 14" guns are not as good as many think, worse penetration than the 14" on the New Mexico, slow muzzle velocity and just the normal 2 rpm. Even the 15" which where planned for the KGV, would be inferior to the 15" on Bismarck, Tirpitz and Gneisenau. Only the better gunlayout and her softstats could make up for this weakness.

 

The RN's 14" mk VII was a significantly more accurate gun than the USNs 14" Mk 11 used in the New Mexicos, firing a heavier shell, making it a better deck penetrator and delivering a much more powerful burster charge.  What that would mean in the game is more hits, more AP damage and more HE damage than the New Mexicos guns at the cost of slightly worse penetration - although in reality the only ships ever built that the KGVs guns could not tackle were the Yamatos...

 

Compared to the 15" guns of the Bismarck, the 15" mk II would similarly have dealt more damage and been a better deck penetrator at the cost of weaker belt penetration.  I would probably have been more accurate - because medium velocity, heavy shell guns ususally are more accurate than high velocity light shell guns - but we can't know that for sure.

 

There's more to gun performance then shell velocity - what you describe as "soft stats" were in the real world way more important that pure penetrating power.

[Trainspite]

I'm with Trainspite on this. Though if I think less historically and more about gameplay, I could just about see Nelson in VIII. Lets face it, with a 356mm/14" internally sloped armor, 160mm/6.25" deck armor and able to bring all 9 guns to bear just 15° off her bows, she'd own tier VII in the current meta.

 

 

I would think it would be closer to a 40 degree angle to get X turret on target, which does show Nelson's broadside, but nevertheless, 6 guns firing forward is plenty enough.

 

Nelson to me, as built and as served, is a tier 7. Similar to Colorado, but slightly faster. Very competitive at tier 7 I would think actually. Rodney is also an ideal premium, at tier 7 in the condition that she punched the Bismarck, or possibly at tier 8 with one of the proposed refits that replaced her 6" turrets with DP 4.5" or 5.25" mounts, as well as replacing her engines for a better top speed. Maybe about 25 knots or so. 

[thestaggy]

 

 

Fairly good chance of it actually, at least in my opinion. Hood can't be a premium while the Admiral class is in the tech tree without WG going back over their rules on leadships being the tech tree ships etc. and deliberately going for a crash grab. 

 

 

Hood is the lead ship of her class, and in some documents at the time, the class was referred to as the Hood class if I remember correctly. Making Hood a premium would only be possible if WG can pull a Nurnberg-Liepzig or Dunkerque-Strasbourg with Hood and her never to be sisters, which is hard, since Bismarck and Tirpitz would be just as different in terms of gameplay especially. And if that was the case, why not make Bismarck the premium and earn even more money than Tirpitz? 

 

They have already done that with the Scharnhorst. Namesake and lead ship of her class and she is a premium while her sister is the regular ship.

[Oely001]

I see no problem with Admiral class T7-standard and Hood T7-Premium; WG has done similar more than once. The problem is that there is no other ship for T7. Nelson is too strong for T7; it's better than Colorado in everything except maybe AAA and long-range fire. You would need a BIG nerf hammer to balance it to T7.

 

KGV is strong and perfect for T8, except the guns. Gun calibre is so important in WoWs, 14'' does not work in a T8-standard. A KGV with 3-2-3 15'' would not be OP, compare it with Bismarck. 15'' KGV on T8 would make Vanguard (15'' stock, 16'' B-hull) free for T9, which is quite appealing to me.

[thestaggy]

It seems the Royal Navy's biggest issue will be tiers 7 & 8. 

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

It seems the Royal Navy's biggest issue will be tiers 7 & 8. 

 

​Ask a hundred people what to put at 7 & 8 in a RN BB tree, and you will probably get a hundred different answers. There may well be more than one BB tree, but what you put in the first one, and how players perceive that, is another thing. You know full well, some folks are not going to be happy, no matter what. If it was me, I would just put Nelson at 7, KGV at 8, with Vanguard as a Premium at 8. I wouldn't put Hood in there at all, as I would save that for a BC tree.

[Oely001]

You cannot ignore game mechanics when choosing ships. The historical approach may not to be the best approach for gameplay/balance.

[Getzamatic]

Game mechanics would probably place KGV at T9 if not for her guns.  Most people seem to agree that the 1938 Lion design would be good for T9 and she's basically a KGV with 16 " guns in all respects.

 

[0ddys]

Yes, because she has guns which can overmatch 26/27mm plating, which the 14" can't. Historical wise this seems off, from the point of game design it makes sense, as long as the overmatch mechanic remains unchanged.

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

I assume there is a later Lion design which would suit tier 10? I am not that up on the Lion designs, myself. Or is there something else post Lion design that I am not aware of?

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

You cannot ignore game mechanics when choosing ships. The historical approach may not to be the best approach for gameplay/balance.

 

I would not disagree with that.

[Oely001]

I assume there is a later Lion design which would suit tier 10? I am not that up on the Lion designs, myself. Or is there something else post Lion design that I am not aware of?

 

 

Probably not - maybe in Russian archives!?  

 

 

I still hope for N3 on Tier X...

[Zerstoeroer]

Chaps...These three are a complete given in my and others that have played the game opinion:

 

1) Nelson at tier 7 (just makes sense in everything)

2) KGV at tier 8 (was built to take on Bismark)

3) Vanguard at tier 9 (last British BB to be built)

 

As for tier 6 and lower who knows to be honest, they could use a number of BBs and tier 10 will be completely made up (paper). 

 

So what about the HMS Hood lads? Its going to be a prem no question about it...But where?

 

 

 

 

The response to the Bismarck was actually the hastily designed HMS Vanguard. The idea was to pool resources otherwise used on some of the  Lion-class BBs into a single ship incorporating the already existing 15" artillery. Still didn't make it in time though.

KGV would have been an extremely poor response, being inferior in almost every aspect.

 

In my mind, there can only be one Tier8: Vanguard. The existing WW2 ships were just not good enough for tier 8. Most would fit tier7 very well though.

So either Vanguard is tier 8 and 9/10 will be Lion or other paper ships. Or Wargaming pulls off some imaginary upgrade magic on Nelson- or KGV-class. In that case, my guess would be Nelson as the higher tier because WG - for some unknown reason - thinks that the player base is too dumb to adapt to fluctuating caliber sizes and there were no plans to upgrade any KGV-vessel to higher caliber artillery as far as I know.

[Trainspite]

 

They have already done that with the Scharnhorst. Namesake and lead ship of her class and she is a premium while her sister is the regular ship.

 

Wrong. As I said, they will split classes if they think they are different enough. Look at Nurnberg & Liepzig, or Dunkerque and Strasbourg. They are effectively half sisters, and fit very loosely as a class, since they are substantially different from each other. WG will split the class if they are different enough. Like how Strasbourg has an 11" armour belt compared to Dunkerque's 9". Or Nurnberg being capable of 12RPM with her guns, while Liepzig could only get to 8RPM. 

 

For Scharnhorst & Gneisenau, Gneisenau doesn't get her original configuration, and only gets a rebuilt form that makes her very different from Scharnhorst and as built condition. Effectively half sisters or so. Hence, WG have split them like Nurnberg and Liepzig. This allows Gneis to be a tech tree ship in the same way Nurnberg is, since the lead ship of the that new class or sub-class would be Gneisenau. Scharnhorst was then put into a premium role since she had no place in the tech tree.

 

For Hood and the Admirals, they to me, are far too similar to be seriously considered to be split. The differences would have very little impact on gameplay, if any. Cosmetic mostly. With that, there is no excuse other than money grabbing to make Hood a premium, unless you are pushing the entire Admiral class into that role. And that creates a few problems for a British BC line. Trying to have a Hood premium and a regular Admiral at the same time would be breaking the guidelines WG already have in place, and the tech tree has precedence over premiums I believe. (Example - North Carolina, as she is preserved, would make her a surefire candidate for a premium tier 8, but she is the lead of her class, so she gets regular status.)

 

I see no problem with Admiral class T7-standard and Hood T7-Premium; WG has done similar more than once. The problem is that there is no other ship for T7. Nelson is too strong for T7; it's better than Colorado in everything except maybe AAA and long-range fire. You would need a BIG nerf hammer to balance it to T7.

 

 

KGV is strong and perfect for T8, except the guns. Gun calibre is so important in WoWs, 14'' does not work in a T8-standard. A KGV with 3-2-3 15'' would not be OP, compare it with Bismarck. 15'' KGV on T8 would make Vanguard (15'' stock, 16'' B-hull) free for T9, which is quite appealing to me.

 

For Hood see above.

Nelson as built and as served is not too strong for tier 7. She fits right in. Her guns are worse than both Nagato and Colorados, and she has the armour similar to Colorado. Her advantages would be that she is 2 knots faster than the US Battleship, while having a more optimal turret arrangement for offensive pushing. 6 Forward Firing guns, and having to only go at a slightly better angle to unveil the third turret. Her maneuverability is likely to be worse as well, since she is significantly longer than the Colorado, and even longer than Nagato. Expect 780m or so. The only case in which Nelson can be a tier 8 is if she receives one of her proposed refits, which would have replaced her engines, increased her speed to 25/6 knots or so, and replaced her 6" turrets with 4.5" or 5.25" DP AA mounts. And that could be suited to a premium Rodney more.

 

In short, Nelson is almost perfectly balanced at tier 7, which is how it should be, her contemparies are at that tier after-all. 

 

KGV should also be alongside her contemparies, only her contemparies are the 1930s treaty battleships, hence that puts her at tier 8. And she is nye on perfect ship, except for her guns, which are what balances her. She has the best armour at tier 8 by a long way, the equal best AA with North Carolina, similar maneuverability to North Carolina, slightly faster than NoCar, her detection range would be quite low, and most other things would be average at the least. Her only real weakness lies with the guns she has, which are lacking when compared the other BBs at her tier. You take away that weakness and give her good guns, and you effectively have a tier 9 ship. Namely, Lion. 14" can work well enough at tier 8, if it is done properly. 

 

Compared to Bismarck, KGV has better armour, is more maneuverable, is 2.5kn slower, has better AA, is more stealthy, has less HP. KGV doesn't need those 15" to do damage, it can be done just as well with the 14". And with WG experimenting the the British cruisers AP recently, there is nothing to say KGV can receive the same. Vanguard is more likely to be a tier 8 premium, since KGV has a greater claim to the tier 8 fast BB regular tech tree spot. Vanguard would not fit in either the BC or slow BB lines, so coupled with the fact she is surplus, famous, and unique, she would be ideal as a tier 8 premium.

 

here is a later Lion design which would suit tier 10? I am not that up on the Lion designs, myself. Or is there something else post Lion design that I am not aware of?

 

There is one from 1945.

 

- 59'100t Standard, 69,140t full load

- 960ft (wl), x 120ft x 35ft

- 9x 16" (Capable of 3RPM, and could recieve the USN 16"/50 Superheavy round)

- 24x 4.5", 68 x 40mm

- 29-32knots

 

That information was taken from a post by Daigensui, one of WGs historical advisers, for lack of a better term.

 

 

 

 

Probably not - maybe in Russian archives!?  

 

 

I still hope for N3 on Tier X...

 

N3 is inferior to Yamato in basically all aspects, and is probably more suited to a tier 9 role in a slow BB line, with some degree of modernisation. L3 at tier 10, which is slightly faster than N3 and has a better/more practical turret arrangement is the more likely tier 10 in my eyes.

 

 

KGV would have been an extremely poor response, being inferior in almost every aspect.

 

 

That made me laugh a little, then I remembered how wrong it was, and it made me depressed. 

 

Also, I guess since some of you may not have seen it a few pages back, here it is again. (I really need to create a new RN Tech tree proposal thread since my old one got locked...)

 

[anonym_MfZ6T7iwWpUC]

 

 

Probably not - maybe in Russian archives!?  

 

 

I still hope for N3 on Tier X...

 

​I would so love to play the N3, strange turret arrangement or not. But I doubt its a tier 10 candidate.

[BuccaneerBill]

 

The response to the Bismarck was actually the hastily designed HMS Vanguard. The idea was to pool resources otherwise used on some of the  Lion-class BBs into a single ship incorporating the already existing 15" artillery. Still didn't make it in time though.

KGV would have been an extremely poor response, being inferior in almost every aspect.

 

In my mind, there can only be one Tier8: Vanguard. The existing WW2 ships were just not good enough for tier 8. Most would fit tier7 very well though.

So either Vanguard is tier 8 and 9/10 will be Lion or other paper ships. Or Wargaming pulls off some imaginary upgrade magic on Nelson- or KGV-class. In that case, my guess would be Nelson as the higher tier because WG - for some unknown reason - thinks that the player base is too dumb to adapt to fluctuating caliber sizes and there were no plans to upgrade any KGV-vessel to higher caliber artillery as far as I know.

 

Why would they need a response to Bismarck, she was an outdated, obsolete battlewagon. Just needed to churn out more carriers. KGV were near enough as good too, even within treaty limits.

[Zerstoeroer]

Here we go again: Bismarck outdated, KGV superior. The RN fanboys are out in force it seems. 

But all your jingoistic theorycraftig doesn't change that Bismarck acquired her targets faster in both engagements with KGV class vessels. She also took more shelling punishment without sinking from it than any other Battleship in history. The KGV would have survived all that? Sure, and thats probably also why her superior protection sent the PoW to the bottom of the sea after just four torpedo hits while Bismarck took even more without sinking. But don't let actual historical events stand in the way of theorycraftig. 

 

[BuccaneerBill]

 

Why would they need a response to Bismarck, she was an outdated, obsolete battlewagon. Just needed to churn out more carriers. KGV were near enough as good too, even within treaty limits.

 

Here we go again: Bismarck outdated, KGV superior. The RN fanboys are out in force it seems. 

But all your jingoistic theorycraftig doesn't change that Bismarck acquired her targets faster in both engagements with KGV class vessels. She also took more shelling punishment without sinking from it than any other Battleship in history. The KGV would have survived all that? Sure, and thats probably also why her superior protection sent the PoW to the bottom of the sea after just four torpedo hits while Bismarck took even more without sinking. But don't let actual historical events stand in the way of theorycraftig. 

 

 

wish you could actually LEARN English before you respond. So by me saying 'nearly as good as Bismarck', it suddenly becomes in your mind 'superior than Bismarck'. ALRIGHTY THEN!!! Theirs only one person displaying jingoism here sir.

 

All battlewagon's were outdated and obsolete in WW2, this is common knowledge. Look what the Ark did to Bismarck with what was a small strike force.  Just 1 torpedo to Bismarck's stern and he was finished. Hence the RN already had lots of capital ships more powerful than Bismarck, at a fraction of the cost, why would they need more super expensive, near pointless battlewagons? Answer: they didn't and Vanguard was very low priority.

[mr3awsome]

The response to the Bismarck was actually the hastily designed HMS Vanguard. 

Wrong. Vanguard is a 1938 project, same as the Lions. 

 

For Hood and the Admirals, they to me, are far too similar to be seriously considered to be split. The differences would have very little impact on gameplay, if any. 

 

The major change is the rearrangement of the shell rooms & magazines. 

In Hood's half sisters this bulked out the hull form, with them loosing 0.75kts as a result, but should probably turn better as a result. 

Its not a lot, but knowing WG, anything is possible. 

 

But all your jingoistic theorycraftig doesn't change that Bismarck acquired her targets faster in both engagements with KGV class vessels. She also took more shelling punishment without sinking from it than any other Battleship in history.  Sure, and thats probably also why her superior protection sent the PoW to the bottom of the sea after just four torpedo hits while Bismarck took even more without sinking. But don't let actual historical events stand in the way of theorycraftig. 

I'd hardly say that she acquired targets quickly in the 2nd engagement, given that she didn't actually hit anything. 

She sank due to shelling damage. She was sinking before Dorsetshire torpedoed her, and before the crew set off the scuttling charges. 

The first torpedo that PoW took would doom pretty much any battleship. 

Its telling that the more weakly protected Repulse sunk first, despite being hit after PoW. 

Can't let history stand in the way of theory crafting. 

 

 

 

 

[BuccaneerBill]

Yes that torpedo damage that POW took was nasty. Wonder though how much could have been avoided if they didn't start that shaft up again iirc. Just one of those things.