Royal BB line

[SeaMonsterUK]

@Ashoka: You need not to answer to my posts.

 

I'll answer them anyway. Or have you forgotten the point of a public forum?

[Exocet6951]

 

There IS a reason he is on the ignore list of a lot of veterans of the forum.

 

 

I actually met him in battle once, the day after RN cruisers were released.

 

I complained that the Emerald is crap during the battle.

He went on to defend the ship to no end, saying that I was the bad player that should just learn to play, that RN cruisers pre-Leander were all fine.

 

Ever since, I've looked at all his posts with the grainiest of salt grains.

And now he basically wants a tier7 machine that'd make the Gneisenau look tame and reasonable.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

I actually met him in battle once, the day after RN cruisers were released.

 

I complained that the Emerald is crap during the battle.

He went on to defend the ship to no end, saying that I was the bad player that should just learn to play, that RN cruisers pre-Leander were all fine.

 

Ever since, I've looked at all his posts with the grainiest of salt grains.

And now he basically wants a tier7 machine that'd make the Gneisenau look tame and reasonable.

 

I never said you were bad player, in fact I never said you were a good player either, nor was I defending the Emerald. In fact, if my memory serves we were both in the Black Swan.

 

So please, don't come up with bullsh*t that never took place or is not true as to our encounter into that battle.

[SeaMonsterUK]

And as a matter of fact, I have replays up from the 1 battle I did with the Black Swan.

[fnord_disc]

@fnord_disc: Yes, gun calibre is an issue on KGV, but not an unsolvable one. There are already König, Dunkerque and Scharnhorst in the game, and all three are good ships, no because of their guns but despite of their guns. Guns will remain KGV's weakness - like in reality - but the strong belt allows her to use all ten of them savely, and with 28 sec reload and good HE shells (and the new HEAP captain skill) she will be dangeous enough. And she can brawl, her secondaries are good, and turning circle can be quite small. And, if necessary, Lesta could take the solution they used with RN cruiser AP, which is in fact very potent although it is 152 mm.

 

As I wrote before, there is still the possibility to take the hypothetical 3x3 15'' armament, but this would make the ship only more traditional in gameplay and a little better against cruisers but not much stronger at all. KGV is Tier VIII or it is not Tier VIII, with 14'' and with 15''.

 

Edit: Cruiser bow armor is totally about balance in WoWs. I see no problem to adapt it at all cruisers to be overmatched by 14''. It wouldn't make any difference for these ships.

 

It makes a big difference for cruisers because all T8 cruisers are suddenly overmatched by T6 whenever they are top tier. Atago and Kutuzov couldn't be nerfed and would suddenly be far more tanky in those games than their silver counterparts.

 

Nerfing cruiser bows across the game is very unlikely in my opinion.

 

As for those examples:

 

• Dunkerque doesn't effectively have a lower caliber than other battleships at T6 because the overmatch characteristics are the same relative to the armor at the tier
• Scharnhorst has torpedoes - different offensive tools to compensate for the lower caliber
• König was buffed with unhistorical shells (WW2 coastal artillery) and would be unplayable at its tier if the players it faces were stronger

 

König performs well statistically, but only because players aren't strong enough to negate its strengths. König desperately needs broadsides to shoot at, because that's where the disadvantages of low caliber disappear. It gets those broadsides all the time at T5 and KGV would get them a lot less at T8.

 

 but the strong belt allows her to use all ten of them savely

 

Base on the to-scale line drawings I have, KGV has a 40° angle on its belt armor if it wants to fire the third turret at the best possible angle. North Carolina reaches a 55° angle on its belt armor to achieve broadside fire.

 

KGV 381mm/cos(40°) = 497mm effective

NC 305mm/cos(55°) = 531mm effective

 

(not taking into account any internal angle because Breyer is a little unreliable for that)

 

So KGV's belt armor would at best be comparable to NC if you actually want to fire all your guns in a standard engagement. In straight up broadside fire, on the other hand, nobody has enough armor to reliably stop anything at the ranges we're fighting at. I highly doubt that inside the game KGV would be any more durable than NC or Amagi, and it's more likely that bad players will overturn to fire the aft turret and get completely hammered in return.

 

KGV can be made to work at T8, I suppose, but it needs an inordinate amount of buffing to overcome the deficiencies of its guns.

[Exocet6951]

 

I never said you were bad player, in fact I never said you were a good player either, nor was I defending the Emerald. In fact, if my memory serves we were both in the Black Swan.

 

So please, don't come up with bullsh*t that never took place or is not true as to our encounter into that battle.

 

Considering I've never actually played the Black Swan, jokes on you. And you can check because I'm not hiding my profile.

 

I merely said that the Emerald was garbage, like the other RN cruisers before it, and you went on a tangent on how they're all great and I just need to learn to play.

 

 

Massive grain of salt from then on.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Considering I've never actually played the Black Swan, jokes on you. And you can check because I'm not hiding my profile.

 

I merely said that the Emerald was garbage, like the other RN cruisers before it, and you went on a tangent on how they're all great and I just need to learn to play.

 

 

Massive grain of salt from then on.

 

I was only going by what I remember, it's a shame those replays no longer work as I never went on any tangent nor told you you needed to learn to play. Nor did I say you were a bad player.

 

But I will get that replay to work eventually and I will take screenshots as to what was said.

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

Lesta would have to change the cruiser armor of about a dozen cruisers in the game and completely upend the balance. The chance of this happening to make one ship work at T8 is practically 0.

 

 

Lesta did not significantly buff the turret traverse of any battleship in the game. The 0.5°/s on Warspite are just about the limit. Arguing that they could buff KGV's traverse more than that is resorting to something without precedent among battleships.

 

Some were buffed more than 0.5°/s.

 

 

Same argument as above - I could see 28s happening, but not a lot lower than that. There is no precedent for such a large buff among battleships.

 

 

No, she does not.

 

Historically? Yes. It was a solid design and a worthy contemporary of the other treaty battleships. In the game, with stats near those she would inherit? No.

 

Gun performance and other offensive stats are all that really matters, even if you and a lot of others don't want to admit that. KGV has a great belt, but as sad as it is, what matters isn't the belt once you get above 300mm. What matters is the citadel hitbox. GK is much more durable than Yamato or Montana even though their belt is way better. The size of the citadel hitbox, in turn, is a matter of interpretation and balancing. It's neither an argument for nor against T8, and therefore the armor protection of KGV is neither an argument for nor against T8. The third turret has very bad angles to the front and the ship will have to expose the entire broadside to fire all turrets. I have the line drawings here and the ship exposes 50° to fire the back turret, completely eliminating any advantage its armor would have given it through angling. In most engagements you will be limited to the front 6x14" turrets, which is anemic to say the least.

 

If Lesta gave KGV the guns that it historically had, then their performance would be inferior to a T6 Fuso:

 

• Inferior penetration
• Inferior flight time
• Inferior in number
• Inferior traverse

 

...assuming one ignores areas where Fuso was buffed over historical values like RoF. If the rest of the ship is interpreted very conservatively for the game, it would even be balanced at T6.

 

Now, I can already hear you typing right now. I don't mean this as a criticism of the historical design in any way. If anything, it's proof of how far away the game's dynamics are from the real world.

 

 

Why? Please argue in terms of game dynamics, not history. And I would prefer an argument centered around the 757m/s ordinary charge, but we can go with the coastal rounds if you like.

 

The way it looks to me, she's a fair bit faster than a Nagato with drastically inferior guns. She has better AA and probably a better heal and that's about it. Sounds pretty balanced to me.

 

edit:

As for the citadel hitbox, Breyer's line drawings are contradictory. One drawing shows two decks above the machinery, the other shows only one deck. Since this is the waterline deck, the citadel hitbox would end either a little above or below the water = down to balancing and neither an argument for nor against anything.

 

Okay, we basically got reload and traverse out of the way then right? Because as I see it, that is something WG makes up along the way, at least the traverse. We can also agree the armour is pretty good for T8 and would also be sufficient for T9, although it can be argued how much more efficient it would be game balancing wise. Still, T8 easily. 

 

As far as I remember the late war AA suite of the ship (of course this could be tweaked into a earlier war suite as well, I realize that) would be pretty amazing. 8x2 DP 133mm (we don't have them in game yet do we?), 20x4 40 mms, various 20mm guns including 12x4 20mm and 2x8 20mm...AA would be actually awesome.

 

And now I'm talking about the guns from a mechanics point of view, since we seem to have a different one here. If König and Scharnhorst (and Gneisenau in comparison to her) have showed my anything, the number of barrels and the numbers of shells per minute can be quite more important than the actual penetration. Because you could make the same argument (can't overmatch bow armour of cruisers, could get rushed) about Scharnhorst. Does it happen though? No. Because you can't just sail straight at a battleship in 98% of situations. Maybe in late game. But if you do in a normal situation, something else will punish you, simple as that. And regular pen damage will still happen! Remember, you don't need overmatch to pen, you can do a regular pen. So as I say it, a likely agile (since WG only cares about ship length it seems) battleships with good DPM and weak alpha, but very good AA can definetly work at T8 and easily so.

[KuroNyra]

 

I was only going by what I remember, it's a shame those replays no longer work

 

A shame indeed.

Hopefully your attitude on the forum already prove his point. And others also saw it. You are probably well intentioned but you simply can't take criticism nor accept that you may be wrong in your logic and thus start acting like a complete jerk over and over again like a child.

Answering question with counter-question: the others answer your own question but you refuse to answer his question? Check.

That alone proove our points toward you.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

A shame indeed.

Hopefully your attitude on the forum already prove his point. And others also saw it. You are probably well intentioned but you simply can't take criticism nor accept that you may be wrong in your logic and thus start acting like a complete jerk over and over again like a child.

Answering question with counter-question: the others answer your own question but you refuse to answer his question? Check.

That alone proove our points toward you.

 

My counter question had the exact same answer to his original question.

 

And my attitude is here to stay, and I do not think highly of anyone in return. Also, there is only 1 person I see here acting like a jerk, espiecally with their accusation as to something happened in a game that did not happen.

[fnord_disc]

 Okay, we basically got reload and traverse out of the way then right?

 

Yes.

 

 We can also agree the armour is pretty good for T8 and would also be sufficient for T9, although it can be argued how much more efficient it would be game balancing wise. Still, T8 easily.

 

The armor is fine for T8.

 

 AA would be actually awesome.

 

Yes.

 

  If König and Scharnhorst (and Gneisenau in comparison to her) have showed my anything, the number of barrels and the numbers of shells per minute can be quite more important than the actual penetration.

 

Hm, yes, I know what you mean. But the difference between T6, T7 and T8 battleships is quite stark and I don't think the fact that Scharnhorst works at T7 is necessarily an argument that the same concept works at T8 for KGV. T7 also meets quite different opposition these days.

 

 since WG only cares about ship length it seems

 

Yes, and KGV is 10m longer than NoCal. It would be fairly agile, but certainly not revolutionarily so. Compared to NoCal you would have, in soft stats:

 

• Similar AA
• Similar or slightly better armor
• Slightly worse agility

 

And by this time I hope we have sufficiently established that the guns are inferior.

[KuroNyra]

And by this time I hope we have sufficiently established that the guns are inferior.

 

Isn't there some major difference of guns between multipe BB of the same level?

The Scharnhorst got a 283mm

The gneisenau got a 380mm

The Colorado got a 406mm

The Amagi got a 410mm

 

Yet the Scharnhorst is tier 8.

 

Beside, there has already been example of "balance" in WoT where the Panther have a RoccoGun, the Tiger got a 8.8 L71 of the Tiger II...

I don't think the "guns are inferior" is actually a good point considering WG like to make there own stats sometimes making guns completly unlike there real life counterpart.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

Isn't there some major difference of guns between multipe BB of the same level?

The Scharnhorst got a 283mm

The gneisenau got a 380mm

The Colorado got a 406mm

The Amagi got a 410mm

 

Yet the Scharnhorst is tier 8.

 

Beside, there has already been example of "balance" in WoT where the Panther have a RoccoGun, the Tiger got a 8.8 L71 of the Tiger II...

I don't think the "guns are inferior" is actually a good point considering WG like to make there own stats sometimes making guns completly unlike there real life counterpart.

 

 

I thought it was tier 7, not 8.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Scharnhorst

[sharpie65]

Scharnhorst is indeed T7, it's guns however are smaller calibre than Warspite (4x2 381mm as compared to 3x3 283mm) which is a Tier 6! The only other BB that comes close to the Grand Old Lady at T6 is the Bayern, with four 2 x 380mm guns. NewMex has 3 triple 356mm guns, and Fuso gets a battery of 6 twin 356mm.

 

For Tier 7 ships, Nagato surpasses 'Spite with the same arrangement of 410mm guns, as does Colorado (4x2 406mm guns). Gneisenau has an inferior setup to Bayern with 3 twin guns of the same calibre[ as Bayern].

[KuroNyra]

 

 

I thought it was tier 7, not 8.

 

http://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Scharnhorst

 

My bad, not enought sleep. Thanks the cat for that!

[SeaMonsterUK]

Scharnhorst is indeed T7, it's guns however are smaller calibre than Warspite (4x2 381mm as compared to 3x3 283mm) which is a Tier 6! The only other BB that comes close to the Grand Old Lady at T6 is the Bayern, with four 2 x 380mm guns. NewMex has 3 triple 356mm guns, and Fuso gets a battery of 6 twin 356mm.

 

For Tier 7 ships, Nagato surpasses 'Spite with the same arrangement of 410mm guns, as does Colorado (4x2 406mm guns). Gneisenau has an inferior setup to Bayern with 3 twin guns of the same calibre[ as Bayern].

 

Might be a bit weak vs same tier BB's, but they shouldn't have changed Gneisenau's guns.

[KuroNyra]

 

Might be a bit weak vs same tier BB's, but they shouldn't have changed Gneisenau's guns.

 

WG change a lot of stuff. Tiger with Tiger II gun anyone?

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

WG change a lot of stuff. Tiger with Tiger II gun anyone?

 

KV-85 has 122mm with AP, another example.

 

 

Hint - KV-122 existed, but could only fire HE.

 

But I do not believe that a warship should have it's armament changed just to suit balance.

[Oely001]

@fnord_disc: I like the discuission with you because it is a discussion and not just exchanging statements.

 

I see the whole thing from the result side. KGV is clearly Tier VIII from the timeframe, and there are very few better alternatives as Vanguard is just a KGV with Warspite guns, and Lion is much too strong for Tier VIII. Furthermore, KGV is far too strong for Tier VII from her basic stats. You cannot cripple her speed oder her HP. So the question is just about how the 14'' guns can work on a Tier VIII BB. Or we take these hypothetical 15''.

 

One thing I may add: Many British BB will be difficult to play. See Warspite = King Queen Elizabeth. They all will be some brawlers although their armor is not that strong as the armor of the US and German battleships. And KGV may become a rather sub-standard BB on Tier VIII (but still a very potent CA-killer), but I prefer a bad British T8 BB to an absolute OP British T7 BB.

 

I don't consider reducing T8-CA bow armor to 20-24 mm a relevant nerf because I rarely had the situation where a T8 cruiser bow-oned to a T6 battleship. In addition, this tactics look weired to me anyway. On T8 BB overmatch is the same up to 406 mm, so 356 mm is as bad as 406 mm in this way.

 

What you say about König is the same with most BB in WoWs. North Carolina is invincible when bow-on but has rarely been played in Ranked Battles by good players because you become unflexible. Bismarck was the ship of choice although she has the worst main guns of all T8 BB. In contrast to NC, König is extremely flexible and best armored T5 BB, even without the benefits from turtleback design; this is why she is so good although her guns are still ballistically bad.

 

To bring some light into the discussion you should think how you would fight other ships with KGV. At Bismarck you aim the upper hull, as you do with other BB; fighting her at range will end in HE spam because you will get too many bounces. At NC you shoot at the turrets and wait for broadside. Most annoying would be Amagi as she would be hard to beat at distance, but at close range you are better of. Sounds not very promising but also not that bad.

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

One thing I may add: Many British BB will be difficult to play. See Warspite = King Elizabeth.

 

Queen Elizabeth, not King Elizabeth.

 

And to be at tier 8 it would have to have 15" guns, there is no question about it or subsidising with artificial buffs to get the 14" guns to work, they are inadequate and antiquated at that tier.

[fnord_disc]

 I see the whole thing from the result side. KGV is clearly Tier VIII from the timeframe, and there are very few better alternatives as Vanguard is just a KGV with Warspite guns, and Lion is much too strong for Tier VIII.

 

I agree. KGV should be put at T8 if it's within reason. I just think the buffs are a little too extensive.

 

 Furthermore, KGV is far too strong for Tier VII from her basic stats. You cannot criple her speed oder her HP.

 

I don't feel the ship is greatly superior to a Nagato in game terms. Nagato's citadel armor was recently buffed to something like 400mm composite, and Nagato's guns are powerful and reliable. If we wind back all the buffs that could be made to KGV, like RoF and traverse, then the ship looks like a decent T7 to me. The speed and the large HP pool wouldn't break the ship at T7 for me.

 

 I don't consider reducing T8-CA bow armor to 20-24 mm a relevant nerf because I rarely had the situation where a T8 cruiser bow-oned to a T6 battleship.

 

Hmm. Hard to say how common it is. I do it a lot in my Hipper at the end of the game, but maybe others don't.

 

 König is extremely flexible and best armored T5 BB, even without the benefits from turtleback design; this is why she is so good although her guns are still ballistically bad.

 

The ship is flexible and durable, but König scales much more poorly than a Kongo when it's punching up. When I played through the König, I hated T7 games in a way that I never did in my Kongos. And playing T9 with Scharnhorst is a struggle, to say the least. KGV would be a lot less fun to play in T10 games than a Bismarck or a North Carolina, even if by some artifice it is made balanced within its own tier.

 

I understand the motivation to keep chronology, technology, and speed progression intact, but KGV requires only fairly mild adjustments to make it work as an extremely durable T7. The bigger problem with this is that she would displace Nelson, because Nelson doesn't work at T8 either.

[Combat_Hamster]

I thought  that  RN BBs  were  expected  to  fight  at  around  18,000  yards,  and were  optimised  for  that,  certainly  with  the  WW1  designs.  KGV is  an oddity....with  'small'  guns...and  Nelson  and  Rodney are  just odd.  I would  point out  that  both  the  14"  and  16"  were  perfectly effective IRL,  which  is unusual ,  given  the very rare occasions  where  capital ships  fought  their opposite  numbers..KGV will be a real  tank.  IRL  Nelson and Rodney at  the time of their completion upset a lot of people as  they were superior  to  their own home  grown product.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

I agree. KGV should be put at T8 if it's within reason. I just think the buffs are a little too extensive.

 

 

I don't feel the ship is greatly superior to a Nagato in game terms. Nagato's citadel armor was recently buffed to something like 400mm composite, and Nagato's guns are powerful and reliable. If we wind back all the buffs that could be made to KGV, like RoF and traverse, then the ship looks like a decent T7 to me. The speed and the large HP pool wouldn't break the ship at T7 for me.

 

 

Hmm. Hard to say how common it is. I do it a lot in my Hipper at the end of the game, but maybe others don't.

 

 

The ship is flexible and durable, but König scales much more poorly than a Kongo when it's punching up. When I played through the König, I hated T7 games in a way that I never did in my Kongos. And playing T9 with Scharnhorst is a struggle, to say the least. KGV would be a lot less fun to play in T10 games than a Bismarck or a North Carolina, even if by some artifice it is made balanced within its own tier.

 

I understand the motivation to keep chronology, technology, and speed progression intact, but KGV requires only fairly mild adjustments to make it work as an extremely durable T7. The bigger problem with this is that she would displace Nelson, because Nelson doesn't work at T8 either.

 

Nelson can work as bypass to the G3 Battlecruiser once the British Battlecruiser/Fast Battleship line comes out, or branch up into a new line with an extremely buffed up N3 Battleship at tier 10.

[mr3awsome]

 the shells are old, that is what I'm saying.

You'd be wrong on that. 

 

Only real difference I see is the use of Mark III Turrets with heavier shells, I don't see how it would be balanced vs ships like Montana.

2,700lb shells no less. Not to mention improved loading for 3rpm. 12 x 2 < 9 x 3. 

Not to mention the beefy AA suite. 

 

As far as I remember the late war AA suite of the ship (of course this could be tweaked into a earlier war suite as well, I realize that) would be pretty amazing. 8x2 DP 133mm (we don't have them in game yet do we?), 20x4 40 mms, various 20mm guns including 12x4 20mm and 2x8 20mm...AA would be actually awesome.

 

We can also go one step further than the late war batteries (which are ultimately self defence due to the 2-2.5km range)

by giving KGV a post war hull. 

Consisting of, as a minimum:

6 x 6 40mm Bofors Mk VI

2 x 2 40mm Bofors STAAG Mk II

4 x 2 40mm Bofors Mk V

8 x 1 40mm Bofors Mk VII

 

Which equates to:

176 @ 3.5km

59 @ 3.5km

93 @ 3.5km

72 @ 3.5km 

For a total of 400 @ 3.5km 

Which we can all agree is rather juicy. 

[Earl_of_Northesk]

[edited]