Royal BB line

[piritskenyer]

 

Not completely imaginary, just non existent on the ships that were completed.

 

To paraphrase: The original proposal for the KGV class was to have 3x3 15" guns

 

There were multiple proposals for a fast battleship, one of which was a 3x3x 15" proposal. It wasn't any more or less original than the 4-2-4x 14", it was scrapped in favour of what they ended up with. 

 

With your levels of knowledge I'd scale back the attitude, the cuntiness and the condescending. Your argument basically revolves around an analogy with Scharnhorst, which is armed with smaller guns and is T7. If we take that analogy, then KGV is a scaled up Scharnhorst and thus should end up on T8. 

 

I will not put the ship on T7 by my right mind. If itvgets tiered to 7, sure, I'll abuse the hell out of it (since she'll wreck face like a m'f'er. You are incompetent and you advertise it with every post you make. 

[sharpie65]

 

Up to this point, his display has been pretty poor and will continue to do so.

He as zero arguments. Really, absolutely non bar "14-inch guns!". So I'm looking forward to clubbing him again when the line arrives

 

 

Slow turrets wouldn't be a "gimmick" and I bet a lot of people would take increased accuracy at the expense of slower turrets. That's just personal taste right there.

 

They gave us those "unique" RN CL's because tbh, they are pretty uninteresting and crappy ships. They are neither particularly well designed nor recognisable. What we have now is their attempt to fix that, whether we like it or not. We don't have that problem with the BB's, they are appealing just because of their historical significance. All the other balancing factors you mention in your second paragraph are impossible to use, since those are dertemined by the real life stats of the ship. They won't just nerf armour or buff gun calibre.

 

T3 Bellerephon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellerophon-class_battleship or maybe Dreadnought, but I feel she might be a premium

T4 Colossus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus-class_battleship_(1910)

T5 Iron Duke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Duke-class_battleship

T6 Queen Elizabeth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-class_battleship

T7 Nelson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson-class_battleship

T8 KGV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_George_V-class_battleship_(1939)

T9 Lion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion-class_battleship

T10 ? I don't think any of the later Lion proposals would cut it. Maybe a modernized N3? I really don't know.

 

 

It would appear you have me beaten, good sir. I concede, the RN BBs would already have quite a lot going for them without slapping additional gimmicks on top.

 

In regards to your proposal, might Vanguard fit in as the T9 Premium?

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

It would appear you have me beaten, good sir. I concede, the RN BBs would already have quite a lot going for them without slapping additional gimmicks on top.

 

In regards to your proposal, might Vanguard fit in as the T9 Premium?

 

Vanguard is no where near a Tier 9.

[SeaMonsterUK]

Your argument basically revolves around an analogy with Scharnhorst, which is armed with smaller guns and is T7. If we take that analogy, then KGV is a scaled up Scharnhorst and thus should end up on T8. 

Scharnhorst has smaller guns with better mid-range penetration than the 14" guns with arguable 0 yard penetration parameters and better at extremely long range. KGV is Tier 7, end of.

[sharpie65]

 

Vanguard is no where near a Tier 9.

Is that down to the same logic that puts KGV at T7?

[SeaMonsterUK]

Is that down to the same logic that puts KGV at T7?

Nope, 15" guns and the similar armour scheme of the KGV. And the other tier 9's use 16" guns of varying calibre.

 

 

Lion-class can also fit Tier 10 as there was a 4x3 16" proposal. I'll have to dig around for the design name.

 

Edit: 16E-38 - Lion-class Design proposal.

[piritskenyer]

Scharnhorst has smaller guns with better mid-range penetration than the 14" guns with arguable 0 yard penetration parameters and better at extremely long range. KGV is Tier 7, end of.

 

What the fu ck are you talking about? Are you reading impaired? Are you struggling with disabilities? Are you fuc king retarded? 

I have presented you time and again written evidence, from a site you yourself have denoted as trustworthy might I add, proving that the 14" weapon outperforms the 283mm weapon at any and every range. 

 

You have, right here discredited yourself as a credible partner for discussion.

 

PS: If you were to hold any rank in any navy it wouldn't be Commodore, but rather Ordinary Seaman. 

PPS: you should take down the part in your signature referring to KGV, as you have clearly demonstrated your incompetence regarding the subject. 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

What the fu ck are you talking about? Are you reading impaired? Are you struggling with disabilities? Are you fuc king retarded? 

I have presented you time and again written evidence, from a site you yourself have denoted as trustworthy might I add, proving that the 14" weapon outperforms the 283mm weapon at any and every range. 

 

You have, right here discredited yourself as a credible partner for discussion.

 

PS: If you were to hold any rank in any navy it wouldn't be Commodore, but rather Ordinary Seaman. 

PPS: you should take down the part in your signature referring to KGV, as you have clearly demonstrated your incompetence regarding the subject. 

 

Any and every range? So why is it that 11" has better penetration than the 14" guns at Medium ranges or is your own reading impaired? It even says on Navweaps, or are you looking at another gun that isn't the 14" Mark VII used on the KGV itself?

 

PS: If I was to hold any rank in the navy it would still be higher than yours

PPS: Think I'll keep it there, as unlike you I don't like ships being overtiered based solely on armour.

[piritskenyer]

http://navweaps.com/index_nathan/Penetration_index.htm

 

Why don't you take a look at these you upjumped bag of mistakes. 

 

[SeaMonsterUK]

I prefer Numbers and Tables: Above is the 11" SK C/34 and the bottom is the 14" Mark VII. Penetration of the former is better than the latter at mid to long range, where the latter has better Deck penetration.

 

 

0 yards (0 m)	23.79" (604 mm)	---
8,640 yards (7,900 m)	18.09" (460 mm)	0.76" (19 mm)
16,514 yards (15,100 m)	13.18" (335 mm)	1.63" (41 mm)
20,013 yards (18,288 m)	11.47" (291 mm)	1.87" (48 mm)
30,000 yards (27,432 m)	8.08" (205 mm)	2.99" (76 mm)

 

 

0 yards (0 m)	26.9" (668 mm)	---
10,000 yards (9,144 m)	15.6" (396 mm)	1.15" (29 mm)
15,000 yards (13,716 m)	13.2" (335 mm)	1.95" (50 mm)
20,000 yards (18,288 m)	11.2" (285 mm)	2.85" (73 mm)
25,000 yards (22,860 m)	9.5" (241 mm)	4.00" (102 mm)
28,000 yards (25,603 m)	---	4.75" (121 mm)

 

[VC381]

There is absolutely no point beating each-other over the head with tables that show different data for the same gun. We've already been through this. It's weird that the calculations "of that time" credit the 14"/45 with such bad penetration while use of a modern formula does not, but I would err on the side of caution using either set of numbers. At the end of the day, even using the better numbers, it's still a mediocre gun. It's not a mediocre gun because it's 14", it's a mediocre gun for its caliber, not much better than 14" guns designed/built 20 years earlier. The only soft stat that can reasonably be tweaked to make this armament viable at T8+ is dispersion, since buffing reload or penetration are much harder to justify given none were particularly impressive to start with and would be immersion breaking. So what you would get is a de-facto cruiser murderer that still struggles to damage other BBs, especially when up-tiered.

[SeaMonsterUK]

There is absolutely no point beating each-other over the head with tables that show different data for the same gun. We've already been through this. It's weird that the calculations "of that time" credit the 14"/45 with such bad penetration while use of a modern formula does not, but I would err on the side of caution using either set of numbers. At the end of the day, even using the better numbers, it's still a mediocre gun. It's not a mediocre gun because it's 14", it's a mediocre gun for its caliber, not much better than 14" guns designed/built 20 years earlier. The only soft stat that can reasonably be tweaked to make this armament viable at T8+ is dispersion, since buffing reload or penetration are much harder to justify given none were particularly impressive to start with and would be immersion breaking. So what you would get is a de-facto cruiser murderer that still struggles to damage other BBs, especially when up-tiered.

 

It would still struggle with same tier BB's at Tier 7 (so does the Scharnhorst but I'm sure someone will try and disprove me). At Tier 8 they can add the KGV with 15" guns all they like, the guns would have to have rounds invented for it since they are the exact same as those used on HMS Hood, but in Triple rather than Double battery arrangements.

[Oely001]

Ashoka's arrogance and ignorance is breathtaking...

 

Aside from the fact that you can make a ship with an Amagi armor layout work on Tier VIII, penetration capacity is mostly unimportant in WoWs because most shells can penetrate most armors within any range. The only problem with 14'' on Tier VIII is that it is bounced by any bow armor. Still you can deliver much damage by shooting at the superstructure. It is not perfect, but Bismarck's main guns are also far from being perfect, and this ship shines with its other attributes.

 

Nelson on T7 (strong, but ok), KGV on T8 (Vanguard Premium, it has even less armor than KGV), Lion on T9. It is that simple.

[SeaMonsterUK]

Ashoka's arrogance and ignorance is breathtaking...

 

 

Aside from the fact that you can make a ship with an Amagi armor layout work on Tier VIII, penetration capacity is mostly unimportant in WoWs because most shells can penetrate most armors within any range. The only problem with 14'' on Tier VIII is that it is bounced by any bow armor. Still you can deliver much damage by shooting at the superstructure. It is not perfect, but Bismarck's main guns are far from being perfect, and this ship shines with its other attributes.

 

 

Nelson on T7 (strong, but ok), KGV on T8 (Vanguard Premium, it has even less armor than KGV), Lion on T9. It is that simple.

 

I'm Arrogant, you got that part right, it's apart of Human nature, for one to deny their arrogance is lying, but I'm far from ignorant. And I'm the not the one overestimating a battleship based on Armour. And Amagi has worse armour than the NC and KGV, so you didn't make much of a point here.

 

Nelson can also work in another line, going from 15" to 16" and right down to 14" is not going to work at all in terms of immersion.

 

KGV would be at tier 7, with a 15" version at T8 and Lion at Tier 9 and 10.

[Oely001]

*sigh* You should use larger font in your signature, maybe someone believes you then.

 

Taking NMex shells for KGV-14'' and Warspite shells for KGV-15'' - just to make it simple - KGV-14'' would have alpha damage of 210,000 HP/min, and KGV-15'' would have 205,200 HP/min. Ok, higher calibre is better, but 15'' isn't anything special on T8, too. Why do you think KGV-14'' is T7 while KGV-15'' is T8???

[SeaMonsterUK]

*sigh* You should use larger font in your signature, maybe someone believes you then.

 

 

Taking NMex shells for KGV-14'' and Warspite shells for KGV-15'' - just to make it simple - KGV-14'' would have alpha damage of 210,000 HP/min, and KGV-15'' would have 205,200 HP/min. Ok, higher calibre is better, but 15'' isn't anything special on T8, too. Why do you think KGV-14'' is T7 while KGV-15'' is T8???

 

Since KGV-14" wouldn't be using NMex shells and KGV-15" wouldn't be using Warspite shells, I think you are trying to be intelligent and failing badly.

 

And the only way you would actually make King George V-class Battleships Tier 8, is if you used 15" Guns, that being the 15"/45 Mark 2.

[Oely001]

I think you have only insults left because you are running out of arguments.

[piritskenyer]

There is absolutely no point beating each-other over the head with tables that show different data for the same gun. We've already been through this. It's weird that the calculations "of that time" credit the 14"/45 with such bad penetration while use of a modern formula does not, but I would err on the side of caution using either set of numbers. At the end of the day, even using the better numbers, it's still a mediocre gun. It's not a mediocre gun because it's 14", it's a mediocre gun for its caliber, not much better than 14" guns designed/built 20 years earlier. The only soft stat that can reasonably be tweaked to make this armament viable at T8+ is dispersion, since buffing reload or penetration are much harder to justify given none were particularly impressive to start with and would be immersion breaking. So what you would get is a de-facto cruiser murderer that still struggles to damage other BBs, especially when up-tiered.

 

The survey of the wreck of Bismarck has revealed that the hull and superstructure was full of 14" shell hits and penetratioms, basically providing evidence to the penetrative power of the "weak" 14".

 

Point being is still that as a complete package, KGV would be too powerful a T7, laughing at both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, while not even bothering to break a sweat against ships such as Nagato or Colorado. 

[SeaMonsterUK]

I think you have only insults left because you are running out of arguments.

 

I have plenty of arguments, but I'm not going to argue with someone who can only place shells from other ships to substitute for a Battleship that isn't even in the game yet.

[KuroNyra]

Ashoka's arrogance and ignorance is breathtaking...

 

There IS a reason he is on the ignore list of a lot of veterans of the forum.

 

[KuroNyra]

 

I have plenty of arguments, but I'm not going to argue with someone who can only place shells from other ships to substitute for a Battleship that isn't even in the game yet.

 

All your arguments are "You are wrong, I am right, please shut up." Sorry but you are not in primary school here.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

The survey of the wreck of Bismarck has revealed that the hull and superstructure was full of 14" shell hits and penetratioms, basically providing evidence to the penetrative power of the "weak" 14".

 

Point being is still that as a complete package, KGV would be too powerful a T7, laughing at both Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, while not even bothering to break a sweat against ships such as Nagato or Colorado. 

 

Because the 14" shells were fired at ranges of 5000 yards and below before they made any kind of penetration, Bismarck is the superior vessel at range when it's rudder is not damaged.

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

All your arguments are "You are wrong, I am right, please shut up." Sorry but you are not in primary school here.

 

Really? I don't remember typing that as a sentence in any of my arguments. 

[SeaMonsterUK]

 

There IS a reason he is on the ignore list of a lot of veterans of the forum.

 

 

Yes, because I simply refuse to allow other members to dictate as to what ships they'd rather have Overtiered. Or is it that I am not being elitist enough and agreeing to whatever is fed to me from a silver spoon?

[KuroNyra]

 

Really? I don't remember typing that as a sentence in any of my arguments.