cro_pwr Players 2,735 posts 10,310 battles Report post #451 Posted October 5, 2016 They weren't effective, they were just annyoing as [edited]. All these Shimas promoted was stalled gameplay. Their Alpha strike capability is still just as high, but without spamming torps from 15km away preventing everyone from ever pushing anywhere. Pretty much this... They weren't preventing "kemp bush", they were forcing it... Every freaking high tier game was shimas spamming 20km torps, and half of the game you would spend dodging them left right and center... (eating few of them ofc) So noone sane would push into 30-60 or whatever torp walls, thus sitting back and hoping that someone will scout that pesky DDs/ torps before they catch up to you... And as much as I'm annoyed by this 6 BBs per side meta, ty but I don't want shima spam back either... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[RONIN] 22cm Beta Tester 6,377 posts 36,635 battles Report post #452 Posted October 5, 2016 They weren't effective, they were just annyoing as [edited]. All these Shimas promoted was stalled gameplay. Their Alpha strike capability is still just as high, but without spamming torps from 15km away preventing everyone from ever pushing anywhere. Well, with torpedoes as easy to dodge as right now, and 1 carrier every few games, BBs no longer have a real counter, except another BB. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[TORAZ] Earl_of_Northesk Players 2,447 posts 14,711 battles Report post #453 Posted October 5, 2016 Well, with torpedoes as easy to dodge as right now, and 1 carrier every few games, BBs no longer have a real counter, except another BB. Sorry, but that's [edited]. I just recently unlocked Kagero. It is a very effective ship if played right. And I'm playing with stock torpedoes. Still, I'm way above server average. After all those "nerfs". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[FIFO] conductiv Beta Tester 435 posts 1,644 battles Report post #454 Posted October 5, 2016 The problem is that the paper still have to get past scissors and dynamite... and then it is kinda hard to wrap that paper around the rock if it isn't big enough! That being said, if you are a lone DD against a lone BB, you should win easily. you would think that would be the case, but it is in my experience actually relatively rare for the DD to win easily. he will win unless he goofs up somewhere, but generally after a protracted fight lasting 4-5 minutes or even longer..as the best counter against being torped by a DD is simply sailing the other way.. barring any method to force the BB to engage, or having the advantage of a totally oblivious BB he is going to try and maintain distance, meaning the DD is down to using its artillery for the dreadfully slow BBQ death, or repeat torp spam for 1 hit every minute or so. the easy wins happen if the BB is completely unaware of the DD's presence (and gets ambushed/stealth torped), or when the BB is forced to engage (trapped in a map corner/forced to attempt a decap..generally endgame stuff in the extremely rare 1v1 scenarios) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SCRUB] Aotearas Players 8,460 posts 13,076 battles Report post #455 Posted October 5, 2016 Actually went back to my cruiser grind in the last week and had pretty even split of games played for cruisers and battleships. Naturally the matchmaking was still largely dominated by battleships, just to make sure the situation didn't change much! The cruisers I played were mostly Yorck and Myoukou (with a couple Atago games in there for captain training), so not exactly the crème de lá crème of cruisers like the Zao or the other tier X beasts. And yes, I absolutely had games were I was one of the only two cruisers on my team with five or more enemy battleships just licking their lips at shooting at the frail little cruisers. Was having a pretty good time. Lots of slow moving, big targets to set on fire and many DDs who think they can farm easy damage on the same victim profile ... I still maintain the current matchmaking is oversaturated with battleships and sorely lacking in cruisers and CVs, but whilst it's undubitably a tough spot for cruisers to face a numerical superiourity of their hardcounters it's far from delegating them to pointlessness or some such. And when I was playing my BBs a properly played cruiser (i.e.: one that's actually running his WASD.exe) is still a nuisance when he's got your number since it's quite hard to hit those little buggers when they actually pay attention. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IVemo Players 89 posts 3,260 battles Report post #456 Posted October 5, 2016 (edited) First they limited CVs and now there is serious thinking about BBs followed by DDs perhaps? I do not think limiting the number of BBs will happen as there are too many of them, more than the matchmaker could find 'normal' matches for. Bearing that in mind, it might be time for all to acknowledge the fact that some ship classes perform better than others - some ships weigh more than the rest, and forget about the notion that all ships should be equal because they are not. WG should just allow 'better' ships in the game but balance them by adjusting rewards for playing. Simply decrease earnings for BBs (or rather increase for classes that are underrepresented), and give rewards based on expected outcome. I do not think it helped removing BBs' vulnerability vs. CVs. That they could bring back to encourage choosing to play cruisers instead of BBs. None thinks "because cruisers are better vs. planes" when choosing between CAs and BBs in the current version of the game, which is rather telling. However, I understand slightly changing stats would not bring back the CVs, they are in need of a lot more help. Edited October 5, 2016 by IVemo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capra76 Players 5,001 posts 7,787 battles Report post #457 Posted October 5, 2016 I do not think limiting the number of BBs will happen as there are too many of them, more than the matchmaker could find 'normal' matches for. Also I suspect a 3 BB cap would make the number of players wanting to play BB even larger. The only thing that can really hurt a BB at the moment is another BB, if you cap them and especially if you cap DD as well then you're severely limiting the threats to them, so why would you want to play anything else? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ADRIA] C4PT41N_0BV10US Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters 4,583 posts 15,668 battles Report post #458 Posted October 5, 2016 To sum up my experience in cruisers from last 50 battles on randoms: All cruisers = crap. Zao = good. Supporting caps/killing DD's = no way Sniping BB's from 16 km = expert gameplay They're not useless, certainly not on randoms. But if you think about doing anything more then hugging island, sitting in smoke, sniping from max range and hoping your team will win for you, don't play cruisers. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ALONE] Smeggo Modder 2,485 posts 15,343 battles Report post #459 Posted October 6, 2016 Indeed. It feels like the game balance has gone really worse since summer. Cruisers have become mostly pointless, except some HE-spamming in Zao or Kutuzov, also have IJN-DDs - and CVs with latest economy patch. Sure, charging in Scharnhorst is great, but I want to have the fun with the other ships as well, as I had before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gvozdeni_Puk_1912 Players 26 posts 1,327 battles Report post #460 Posted October 6, 2016 It's nice to "order" BattleBabies to tank and shoot at each other, but most of them exclusively target cruisers, as they are unlikely to switch to HE for angled BBs. And with so many more BBs than intended by devs, it is hard not to turn broadside to at least some of them. Instead of 2-3 now we have 4-5 all seeking easy dmg by shooting/sniping CAs. On the other hand with so many shots fired, the rng steps in and a total retard, not able to hit a side of a barn from inside shoots, at wiggling WASD hacking CA, and you can see 1 shell de-grouping from the rest of them that are clearly going to miss and citadeling you, from behind...., through an angled side. Even when you watch these super-uniqums and their hard carries one can identify clearly 1 moment in each replay when the enemy team makes a error, or RNG saves their [edited]HARD (getting shot while broadside with minimal dmg) . However when playing, those lucky RNGs seem to happen much less, and miraculous self-guiding shells are much more prevalent. Simply too many BBs shooting a diminishing number of CAs = a lot more hits on even the good players Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SCRUB] Aotearas Players 8,460 posts 13,076 battles Report post #461 Posted October 6, 2016 THIS here is what's wrong with cruisers right now: 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gvozdeni_Puk_1912 Players 26 posts 1,327 battles Report post #462 Posted October 6, 2016 THIS here is what's wrong with cruisers right now: And once you fire single shot ad enemy DD - 40 BB shells are coming your way Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sub_Eleven Players 1,225 posts Report post #463 Posted October 6, 2016 Oh lookie, another 5 battleboats, 5 destroyers match, how exciting! Seriously, my premium time ran out a while back and I haven't played since. I'm taking another extended break till they fix the current meta, or high tier cruisers in general (let's be frank, that's not gonna happen, right?). Match after match with the same old, same old matchmaking got a little bit too boring. At least in Ao's screen there is a carrier present, I'm impressed! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[SCRUB] Aotearas Players 8,460 posts 13,076 battles Report post #464 Posted October 6, 2016 (edited) At least in Ao's screen there is a carrier present, I'm impressed! Oh, you mean the Hiryuu who was afk for long enough to have the Strike Ranger's snipe attempt find him where he spawned, kill him and then proceed to have free reign over the battlefield ... yeah. Didn't take screenshots but our team managed 6 kills in total before losing, three of those were mine with ~90k damage. And this was one of the better games I had today Edited October 6, 2016 by Aotearas Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baby_JeeWhizz Players 26 posts 7,629 battles Report post #465 Posted October 6, 2016 THIS here is what's wrong with cruisers right now: Actually THIS is what's wrong with cruisers right now: From today 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
komoo Players 56 posts 10,172 battles Report post #466 Posted October 6, 2016 I think a Herp Derp face ( ) would be more appropriate for that cruiser Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[POI--] dasCKD Quality Poster 2,376 posts 19,148 battles Report post #467 Posted October 6, 2016 Actually THIS is what's wrong with cruisers right now: You know, I thought that there was a limit to stupid and once more I was proven wrong. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EsaTuunanen Beta Tester 3,552 posts 8,863 battles Report post #468 Posted October 6, 2016 You know, I thought that there was a limit to stupid and once more I was proven wrong. If you think rock bottom has been reached there's always someone willing to start digging deeper. Oh lookie, another 5 battleboats, 5 destroyers match, how exciting! Seriously, my premium time ran out a while back and I haven't played since. I'm taking another extended break till they fix the current meta, or high tier cruisers in general (let's be frank, that's not gonna happen, right?). Match after match with the same old, same old matchmaking got a little bit too boring. At least in Ao's screen there is a carrier present, I'm impressed! Playing with T5 Gremlin number of DDs per team varies down to two. But four seems to be absolute minimum number for BBs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mtm78 Alpha Tester 19,378 posts 6,105 battles Report post #469 Posted October 7, 2016 They weren't effective, they were just annyoing as [edited]. All these Shimas promoted was stalled gameplay. Their Alpha strike capability is still just as high, but without spamming torps from 15km away preventing everyone from ever pushing anywhere. They were annoying because of numbers mainly, not because of their abilities. A single Shima on a team did not cause kemping, in fact a stationary BB vs the old 20km torps won't be stationary long. That was the 'attraction' of Shimakaze, 15 long range torps which meant you always had something you could shoot at ( or well, getting in the 'right' location was a lot easier I'm still a bit vexed I grinded my Shima and I never got the really play it ( like it was supposed to be played )). I think the Shimakaze nerf was wrong, just as with current debate about BB oversaturation; WG might not like adding class limits to MM but it would have been better imho. Pretty much this... They weren't preventing "kemp bush", they were forcing it... Every freaking high tier game was shimas spamming 20km torps, and half of the game you would spend dodging them left right and center... (eating few of them ofc) So noone sane would push into 30-60 or whatever torp walls, thus sitting back and hoping that someone will scout that pesky DDs/ torps before they catch up to you... And as much as I'm annoyed by this 6 BBs per side meta, ty but I don't want shima spam back either... I don't want Shima spam either, but 1 ( 2 MAX ) Shima's in a game, I don't think it is what creates static gameplay ( well... if I'm on low HP and can't risk taking a single torp I will kemp in the back if there is a Shima spamming torps... but a Gearing could achieve that as well ). To sum up my experience in cruisers from last 50 battles on randoms: All cruisers = crap. Zao = good. Supporting caps/killing DD's = no way Sniping BB's from 16 km = expert gameplay They're not useless, certainly not on randoms. But if you think about doing anything more then hugging island, sitting in smoke, sniping from max range and hoping your team will win for you, don't play cruisers. Which is just not a fun way to spend your time The versatility of CA play is what makes them attractive, if the meta forces you to do the same things over and over the class loses appeal. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW Players 894 posts Report post #470 Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) You know, I thought that there was a limit to stupid and once more I was proven wrong. Nah, haven't you faced those that not only don't care if someone is in the way like here, but also put their fishes in the water as soon as they can see any enemy? It's too complicated to read all those dumb circles on the map, let me shot torpedos even if it's 12-15km and i am in a cruiser...It happens especially on open maps like Strait... Edited October 7, 2016 by anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ADRIA] C4PT41N_0BV10US Alpha Tester, In AlfaTesters 4,583 posts 15,668 battles Report post #471 Posted October 7, 2016 Which is just not a fun way to spend your time The versatility of CA play is what makes them attractive, if the meta forces you to do the same things over and over the class loses appeal. Yup. I slided from my armchair so low, my neighbours started seeing my butt. But, well, I'll not allow myself to be punished in Des Moines over and over again for no mistake made. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[NIKE] Xevious_Red Beta Tester 3,412 posts 7,888 battles Report post #472 Posted October 7, 2016 Nah, haven't you faced those that not only don't care if someone is in the way like here, but also put their fishes in the water as soon as they can see any enemy? It's too complicated to read all those dumb circles on the map, let me shot torpedos even if it's 12-15km and i am in a cruiser...It happens especially on open maps like Strait... Depends on the range of the torps, speed of torps/enemy and what angle the enemy is on. For example 10km torps that go 60kn fired at a target that is heading straight towards you going 30kn will connect if fired when he's 15km away (assuming he never changes speed, or direction) In the time it takes your torps to go 10km, the enemy (who's going half as fast) will go 5km so will hit the torps. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mtm78 Alpha Tester 19,378 posts 6,105 battles Report post #473 Posted October 7, 2016 It's too complicated to read all those dumb circles on the map, let me shot torpedos even if it's 12-15km and i am in a cruiser... If the minimap is to complicated for you, just uninstall ;) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
anonym_i2RxUTEMphjW Players 894 posts Report post #474 Posted October 7, 2016 Depends on the range of the torps, speed of torps/enemy and what angle the enemy is on. For example 10km torps that go 60kn fired at a target that is heading straight towards you going 30kn will connect if fired when he's 15km away (assuming he never changes speed, or direction) In the time it takes your torps to go 10km, the enemy (who's going half as fast) will go 5km so will hit the torps. I know such calculations, but would not suspect Konigsberg firing torpedos almost from our spawn zone to enemy appearing on the horizon for them ;) With me in my Svietlana exactly in the middle, of course... If the minimap is to complicated for you, just uninstall ;) I see i overdid my sarcasm, that was the said cruiser captain's thinking, not mine... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
[ADRIA] Pricket [ADRIA] Players 43 posts 7,196 battles Report post #475 Posted October 7, 2016 I have not read the entire thread, so maybe somebody has said this before. I agree that cruisers have a hard time at the moment. The players have gotten better and cruisers are the easiest to punish for their mistakes. I also feel cruisers can have a very hard time being bottom tier compared to DD's and some BB's. So my solution to get more cruisers (and CV's) would be to give some extra incentive like better rewards and preferred matchmaking (already there with CV's) And once it balances out again you could reverse the bonuses for the cruisers. CV's have more problems than just difficulty. It need to have a fun playstyle as well Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
