Cruisers are becoming more and more pointless

[_FTD_]

One of the biggest problems in online games / WoWs is that people fail to admit when they made a mistake but blame it on other people / circumstances. With this behavior they restrict themselves from learning and getting better.

 

No matter what the meta is like, no matter what is popular some people will struggle, the ones that don't struggle are the ones that can adapt and learn from mistakes.

 

 

tl dr; Stop crying on the forum about everything and try to get better, if you can't be arsed to work on yourself you deserve to get lost in the abyss of devastating striked CA's 

 

 

 

[Exocet6951]

Ah I see the problem.

 

You think I meant that cruiser as a class suck, and are not versatile.

No, that's not what I said.

 

I said that a squishy ship that's outnumbered almost two to one to increasingly independent and infringing on cruiser-like versatility by BBs is the problem.

How can someone justify playing as a Hipper, when the Bismarck is almost as fast, has hydro, death-secondaries, harder hitting guns, and can actually get close to the enemy without being instantly popped ?

 

Almost all the Hindenburgs I see spam HE, because of the lack of targets vulnerable to AP at a distance. That's a devastatingly sad observation.

[mtm78]

One of the biggest problems in online games / WoWs is that people fail to admit when they made a mistake but blame it on other people / circumstances. With this behavior they restrict themselves from learning and getting better.

 

No matter what the meta is like, no matter what is popular some people will struggle, the ones that don't struggle are the ones that can adapt and learn from mistakes.

 

 

tl dr; Stop crying on the forum about everything and try to get better, if you can't be arsed to work on yourself you deserve to get lost in the abyss of devastating striked CA's 

 

Look, that's all fine and dandy, and 100% true in essence, but it does short on people since you make it out like the average player should be capable of adapting to a meta requiring a higher base skill level, and what I'm getting from people is that this assumption is just not applicable. They can't adapt because playing CA's in a very BB heavy meta raises the skill floor at which one can have a decent experience. 

 

It's not just the players at wrong here, WG could step up and acknowledge that CA's are becoming less popular with the average player, and do something to rectify this ( with MM limitations, NOT with buffs to CA's or nerfs to BB's ( other then my requested AAA nerf plox )). And THEN if people keep complaining you can tell them to 'git gud' ;)

[Spithas]

Almost all the Hindenburgs I see spam HE, because of the lack of targets vulnerable to AP at a distance. That's a devastatingly sad observation.

 

All cruisers can make use of their AP even against BBs.

 

Even at distances like 15-16km. Zao for instance regularly deliver 10k+ salvoes of AP at those distances. At closer ranges it can be totally devastating. Des Moines deleting full hp Yamatos or Montanas at 2-3km or Mosvka doing 38k in a single salvo are possible. Hindenburg can do it as well.

 

It just takes much more planning and good awareness and anticipation to switch ammo when you feel you will have a good opportunity or to know when and how to get close in order to deliver large amounts of pain.

 

AP isn't something you only fire at cruisers... infact Cruisers are much more capable than BBs to nulify your AP as they are much more maneuverable.

[mtm78]

 

All cruisers can make use of their AP even against BBs.

 

Even at distances like 15-16km. Zao for instance regularly deliver 10k+ salvoes of AP at those distances. At closer ranges it can be totally devastating. Des Moines deleting full hp Yamatos or Montanas at 2-3km or Mosvka doing 38k in a single salvo are possible. Hindenburg can do it as well.

 

It just takes much more planning and good awareness and anticipation to switch ammo when you feel you will have a good opportunity or to know when and how to get close in order to deliver large amounts of pain.

 

AP isn't something you only fire at cruisers... infact Cruisers are much more capable than BBs to nulify your AP as they are much more maneuverable.

 

Man.. you know I believe you on your word since I know you're actually capable of doing this and it's not all talk, but you got to consider that you're the outlier here and thus not representative of what others can do.

 

Maybe.. you know I am part of SGWA and we haven't done any courses/classes in some time now ( due to various reasons ) but it would be absofrigginlutely fantastic if you would offer to give an 'advanced' CA class for our members ( though I will ofc also join ). Maybe in some training room situations or w/e ( not sure what you need to show us how to adapt/play in current meta ).. 

 

 

[_FTD_]

 

Look, that's all fine and dandy, and 100% true in essence, but it does short on people since you make it out like the average player should be capable of adapting to a meta requiring a higher base skill level, and what I'm getting from people is that this assumption is just not applicable. They can't adapt because playing CA's in a very BB heavy meta raises the skill floor at which one can have a decent experience. 

 

It's not just the players at wrong here, WG could step up and acknowledge that CA's are becoming less popular with the average player, and do something to rectify this ( with MM limitations, NOT with buffs to CA's or nerfs to BB's ( other then my requested AAA nerf plox )). And THEN if people keep complaining you can tell them to 'git gud' ;)

We don't have to discuss about this, it's 100% WGs fault as they are the only ones being able to put a class limitation. I can't tell whether I'd like it because it means that the MM takes longer to get a game going but a limitation for DD's should definitely happen regardless. It's no fun for the DD player nor for the BB / CA player to deal with 6 DDs in a game.

Maybe.. you know I am part of SGWA 

 

What is this?

 

 

 

 

[mtm78]

What is this?

 

strangers123 never talked about it? -> http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46526-specialists-global-warships-academy/

 

Since he is really busy with OMNI and ST coordination I'm trying to pull some weight but I've never done something like this before and I'm not inherently good at it I feel. Like how I wanted to organize some training matches and even got an offer from OM to train against us but I couldn't get the people interested to respond to me in time  

 

Either way, I am sure that since I to am struggling, I am not capable of giving the best advice how to deal with the current meta and still be effective ( and have fun doing so ). So if we ( SGWA ) could get someone as Spithas to host a class on more advanced gameplay I am sure a lot of people would be interested. 

 

 

Maybe you could pick a replay of one of your matches and add some comments explaining the motivation for some of your decisions (at 5:33 I turn this way because on minimap I saw ..., at 7:20 I switch to AP because ..., etc.) and put this on youtube. I would love to see this and learn from it.

 

^^ point proven

 

 

 

[_FTD_]

 

strangers123 never talked about it? -> http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/46526-specialists-global-warships-academy/

 

Since he is really busy with OMNI and ST coordination I'm trying to pull some weight but I've never done something like this before and I'm not inherently good at it I feel. Like how I wanted to organize some training matches and even got an offer from OM to train against us but I couldn't get the people interested to respond to me in time  

 

Either way, I am sure that since I to am struggling, I am not capable of giving the best advice how to deal with the current meta and still be effective ( and have fun doing so ). So if we ( SGWA ) could get someone as Spithas to host a class on more advanced gameplay I am sure a lot of people would be interested. 

Just contact us I'm sure OMNI could get a gameplay guide going for every class, I know Shockpirat / Gunship have done it in the past but we can surely do an advanced guide for every class (in the current meta) even though I believe that plenty of them exist already, no?

[FallenOrchid]

 

It just takes much more planning and good awareness and anticipation to switch ammo when you feel you will have a good opportunity or to know when and how to get close in order to deliver large amounts of pain.

 

 

Maybe you could pick a replay of one of your matches and add some comments explaining the motivation for some of your decisions (at 5:33 I turn this way because on minimap I saw ..., at 7:20 I switch to AP because ..., etc.) and put this on youtube. I would love to see this and learn from it.

[mtm78]

SGWA imo is still in a concept stage, I was going to work it out over time with strangers but he has been so bussy with OMNI and ST and the showmatches and the cross dressing that it's just not getting of the ground. We done some classes, strangers with CV and I done basic DD course but it was one time event. I would like to set up either 'on demand' advanced courses or scheduled basic courses for the different classes. Basic courses I can handle for DD/CA/BB, advanced courses are probably more where I should be joining as trainee and not as instructor ;)

 

We don't have a proper setup yet, strangers wanted to clone the concepts used in STGA and I was waiting on that ( for quite some time now ). If you're willing to help set up I would be eternally extremely grateful, it would probably even revitalize my interest in hanging around longer ( suffering from burnout symptoms, wasn't sure I would be sticking around after my current premium ran out.. ). 

 

edit: dyslexia ftw

[_FTD_]

SGWA imo is still in a concept stage, I was going to work it out over time with strangers but he has been so bussy with OMNI and ST and the showmatches and the cross dressing that it's just not getting of the ground. We done some classes, strangers with CV and I done basic DD course but it was one time event. I would like to set up either 'on demand' advanced courses or scheduled basic courses for the different classes. Basic courses I can handle for DD/CA/BB, advanced courses are probably more where I should be joining as trainee and not as instructor ;)

 

We don't have a proper setup yet, strangers wanted to clone the concepts used in STGA and I was waiting on that ( for quite some time now ). If you're willing to help set up I would be eternally grateful, it would probably even revitalize my interest in hanging around longer ( suffering from burnout symptoms, wasn't sure I would be sticking around after my current premium ran out.. ). 

 

 

Should have done the organizing the OMC Cup, you'd have a burn out by now.

 

Hop on our TS during the late afternoon early evening 4pm-7pm and we can talk through it? It is easy to motivate some of our member to do this.

[Spithas]

 It is easy to motivate some of our member to do this.

 

30 Port slots.

[bug]

Much fun in playing cruisers tier 6-8 was lost when the new line of german BB entered the game.

[Necrocoil]

One of the biggest problems in online games / WoWs is that people fail to admit when they made a mistake but blame it on other people / circumstances. With this behavior they restrict themselves from learning and getting better.

 

No matter what the meta is like, no matter what is popular some people will struggle, the ones that don't struggle are the ones that can adapt and learn from mistakes.

 

 

tl dr; Stop crying on the forum about everything and try to get better, if you can't be arsed to work on yourself you deserve to get lost in the abyss of devastating striked CA's 

 

 

 

 

This, people that are unable to look at them selves with some proper self criticism will always struggle to move up and are usually the people who blame their team or simply everything else they can blame, except them selves.

Then again the fact of the matter is that you have these people in any game and it makes sense, because not everyone is capable of doing this.

 

To get more on-topic, cruisers have always had weak armour.. cruisers always required a specific more carefully thought out play style which doesn't suit every player.

In general that same thing goes for every ship type and to be more specific, each ship on it's own regardless of ship-class.

Every ship has it's own weaknesses and strenghts, the key is to know the weakness and strength and specific game-styles of each and every ship.

The people that moan the most about ship weaknesses, struggle to apply those things to their play-style..

 

Metas will always change, you just have to adapt and overcome.

[Omnichr0n]

The reason why CL/CA is struggling can be simplified into the whole rock (BB), scissors (CA/CL), paper (DD) line of thought.

Now that there is tons of rock around, you will struggle quite a lot with that scissor!

 

Of course CV is always fine as they are dynamite and takes out everything.

That being said, the ships are way too different to be set into just simplified classes, and I for one think that a lot of the cruisers today works perfectly fine in a BB heavy meta... it's just that you get punished much harder whenever you do mistakes (which is why the more average player (who do more mistakes) will suffer more heavily than the better players).

[cro_pwr]

Spithas is one if not the best (rip forgot RNGsama) CA player on EU when it comes to solo as well as division play, there is no reason to question what he says.

 

You didn't even mention our Lord and saviour SkyBucksFlying, so your opinion is invalid

[_FTD_]

 

You didn't even mention our Lord and saviour SkyBucksFlying, so your opinion is invalid

Seems like you forgot hes a Naval Legend when it comes to Carrier Vessel!

[Earl_of_Northesk]

I think the problem here is some kind of self fullfilling prophecy.

 

When they changed the MM with 0.5.9, problems started, Nobody complained before. When the MM changed, that one tended to do either matches with 0-1 BB's and a ton of cruisers or a lot of BB's, because it couldn't cope with its restrictions. That got changed a bit, but then the massive influx of BB's started with the Germans. At that moment, cruisers of course got into trouble. They always relied on numbers to bull BB's. Now, with 5 vs. 5 BB's beng the norm and still a lot of DD's around at which you can't fire at the beginning, these BB's focused the cruisers still around, Which in return died more often. Which discouraged players from playing them, making it even less cruisers for the MM to distribute. Which inflated problem 1.

 

tl:dr: I don't think BB's are too powerful or CA's pointless. I think that both are a problem if their numbers are too high in a battle. Getting back to a 4 BB maximum per game would probably solve a lot of problems. I don't need to get into a match withing 10 seconds everytime I click battle. I want balanced and fun battles.

I know WG doesn't like hardcaps, but this game might need it really.

[Capra76]

The reason why CL/CA is struggling can be simplified into the whole rock (BB), scissors (CA/CL), paper (DD) line of thought.

 

Now that there is tons of rock around, you will struggle quite a lot with that scissor!

 

But then the reason why there's so much rock about is because paper has been nerfed into the ground so we now have a game of rock-scissors, which rock will always win.

 

 

[conductiv]

The reason why CL/CA is struggling can be simplified into the whole rock (BB), scissors (CA/CL), paper (DD) line of thought.

 

Now that there is tons of rock around, you will struggle quite a lot with that scissor!

 

Of course CV is always fine as they are dynamite and takes out everything.

 

That being said, the ships are way too different to be set into just simplified classes, and I for one think that a lot of the cruisers today works perfectly fine in a BB heavy meta... it's just that you get punished much harder whenever you do mistakes (which is why the more average player (who do more mistakes) will suffer more heavily than the better players).

 

if rock paper scissors was a good analog, a overpopulation in rock would automatically mean more people would pick paper to counter, yet this isn't happening.

 

actually there is only 2 classes that has the tools to effectively counter a lone BB, thats the carrier..and that one is limited by the MM and the battleship itself. other classes can kill it...but that would require a significant amount of luck and time.

 

DDs are actually quite ineffective at BB killing as far as I have seen, any torp spotted at 5KM or further is autododged and most DD's have a hard time closing in to torp undetected..or from such a close range that dodging is impossible. their stealth, high agility and lack of citadel does give them excellent protection against cruisers though, as no matter how powerful your artillery is, if you can't see/hit it you won't be dealing any damage..and unlike cruisers you can't just crit half their health off with a single rogue shell (barring a detonation, that can kill any ship with a rogue shell)

[mtm78]

 

if rock paper scissors was a good analog, a overpopulation in rock would automatically mean more people would pick paper to counter, yet this isn't happening.

 

actually there is only 2 classes that has the tools to effectively counter a lone BB, thats the carrier..and that one is limited by the MM and the battleship itself. other classes can kill it...but that would require a significant amount of luck and time.

 

DDs are actually quite ineffective at BB killing as far as I have seen, any torp spotted at 5KM or further is autododged and most DD's have a hard time closing in to torp undetected..or from such a close range that dodging is impossible. their stealth, high agility and lack of citadel does give them excellent protection against cruisers though, as no matter how powerful your artillery is, if you can't see/hit it you won't be dealing any damage..and unlike cruisers you can't just crit half their health off with a single rogue shell (barring a detonation, that can kill any ship with a rogue shell)

 

Well we had pretty effective anti capital ship DD's, they were called Shima's and had nasty long range torps... 

 

[conductiv]

 

Well we had pretty effective anti capital ship DD's, they were called Shima's and had nasty long range torps... 

 

 

torp walls..nasty long range torp..walls...

 

using shotgun tactics works if you have enough on a DD, but even then it was a high tier exception to the rule. much like the zao is now with cruisers

[Omnichr0n]

if rock paper scissors was a good analog, a overpopulation in rock would automatically mean more people would pick paper to counter, yet this isn't happening.

 

The problem is that the paper still have to get past scissors and dynamite... and then it is kinda hard to wrap that paper around the rock if it isn't big enough!

 

That being said, if you are a lone DD against a lone BB, you should win easily.

[mtm78]

The reason I mention it is because with the imo 'kemp bush' BB meta we have now, the long range torps would be really effective in forcing BB's to keep on the move.

 

I am not saying I want to go back to the 6 shima vs 6 shima DD fests, that wasn't fun. But I do think the long range torpedo's had a place in the game. 

[Earl_of_Northesk]

 

Well we had pretty effective anti capital ship DD's, they were called Shima's and had nasty long range torps... 

 

 

They weren't effective, they were just annyoing as [edited]. All these Shimas promoted was stalled gameplay. Their Alpha strike capability is still just as high, but without spamming torps from 15km away preventing everyone from ever pushing anywhere.