Cruisers are becoming more and more pointless

[Exocet6951]

To all of you arguing against Dominico's analysis:

 

He is actually pretty damn spot on. And you are all welcome to check my cruisers stats and tell me that i don't know what i am talking about. 

 

> plays high tier ships that can invisibly fire or lower tier ships that can fire over islands, and mostly in 2-3 man divisions.

 

"Guys, cruisers are fine, all you have to do is be ever more passive, and have a division mate to use as a shield"

 

 

If you are being focused by six BBs then you are by definition a terrible player.

 

Or the closest enemy. Which isn't exactly hard when 4 out of your 5 BBs are heroically defending the spawn point.

[mtm78]

 

If you are being focused by six BBs then you are by definition a terrible player.

 

Well.. ok... maybe it shows bad situational awareness as I indeed try to not let that happen ever. But there are to many games where allied BB's don't advance enough, making the gap between DD's and BB's so large that CA's can't support the DD's effectively. I don't mind having to hang back if the game allows it, but more often then not this isn't the case. And while I might not be right at your level of cruiser play, I'm not terrible either, so I don't buy your 'CA's are fine, meta is fine, it's a player issue' statement. Maybe you could elaborate on how you think CA's can work in a BB saturated meta where it's often the case that your allied BB's don't advance enough?

 

 

[Spithas]

 

> plays high tier ships that can invisibly fire or lower tier ships that can fire over islands, and mostly in 2-3 man divisions.

 

"Guys, cruisers are fine, all you have to do is be ever more passive, and have a division mate to use as a shield"

 

 

Or the closest enemy. Which isn't exactly hard when 4 out of your 5 BBs are heroically defending the spawn point.

 

My tier 9-10 Cruiser stats for solo play:

 

Zao WR 62%  AvgDam 135k Wonder how i have such a decent win ratio if i am always 16km from the nearest enemy ship

DM  WR 69% AvgDam 115k  Yeah invisifiring with DM at 17km is the easiest way to get 69% win ratio and 41% hit ratio

Mosvka WR 62% AvgDam 120k Best invisifire ship ingame! So good i didn't even train Concealment expert or use Concealment Module on it.

Ibuki WR 61% AvgDam 85k

Baltimore WR 71% AvgDam 74K

 

And yeah those 83 Cleveland games are really buffing my Cruiser stats unless you think that Aoba can lob shells behind islands too? or did you mean Kutuzov or Chapayev as low tier?

 

But hey i get it. It's hard to admit that CAs are hard to play and very skill intensive... much easier to label the entire class as useless and hope someone buffs them or they nerf BBs.

[mtm78]

But hey i get it. It's hard to admit that CAs are hard to play and very skill intensive... much easier to label the entire class as useless and hope someone buffs them or they nerf BBs.

 

No one is asking for this, well I for one aren't. All I want is a 'better' distribution off classes by the matchmaker so I don't end up as only cruiser vs 8 BB's ( or two cruisers vs six BB's even ). It's the oversaturation of BB's, I've always liked playing cruisers and I don't think telling me to l2p is applicable here, I don't want CA's buffed or BB's nerfed ( well I want their AAA nerfed so they can't kemp in the back anymore as that opens them up to air attacks ). 

[LooneyBin]

I've stopped playing CA/CL, it drains the fun out of me playing them atm.

So i've done the easy thing, and joined the BB's.

Average dmg, WR and survival rate have gone up the last 50-60 games, so much skills required to play BB's now-a-adays.

[Exocet6951]

 

My tier 9-10 Cruiser stats for solo play:

 

Zao WR 62%  AvgDam 135k Wonder how i have such a decent win ratio if i am always 16km from the nearest enemy ship

DM  WR 69% AvgDam 115k  Yeah invisifiring with DM at 17km is the easiest way to get 69% win ratio and 41% hit ratio

Mosvka WR 62% AvgDam 120k Best invisifire ship ingame! So good i didn't even train Concealment expert or use Concealment Module on it.

Ibuki WR 61% AvgDam 85k

Baltimore WR 71% AvgDam 74K

 

And yeah those 83 Cleveland games are really buffing my Cruiser stats unless you think that Aoba can lob shells behind islands too? or did you mean Kutuzov or Chapayev as low tier?

 

But hey i get it. It's hard to admit that CAs are hard to play and very skill intensive... much easier to label the entire class as useless and hope someone buffs them or they nerf BBs.

 

 

So I have to take your word for it that you don't stay at max range all match?

But hey, I can pull out my out of context stats too !

Zao : average damage of 120k or so, 75% WR, all the fun stuff, and all solo. And my contribution to the matches? Max range burning BBs to pad damage, and shooting DDs while others spot for me.

 

That's not playing cruisers, that's being a glorified incendiary catapult. It's terrible gamelplay, and the only thing we have to blame is the fact that BBs outnumber CAs.

 

 

And yeah, the Aoba can lob shells behind islands. If I can do it with Russian 152s, you can do it with Japanese 203s.

[Leo_Apollo11]

Hi all,

 

Cruisers are in bad position now... especially when paired with cowardly DDs that do not want to CAP and BBs that camp far far behind...

 

I especially hate this when I, in flimsy and vulnerable Tier VIII "New Orleans", end up 1st in my "potato" team consisting of 5x Tier X's (including "Yamato" and "Montana" BBs) and 2x Tier IX's....

 

 

 

Leo "Apollo11"

[22cm]

It s not only the large numbers of BBs,  it s that the BBs can play independently now.  When I was grinding the slow crap Colorado,  my biggest concern was that I could not keep up with the rest of my team. Now BBs don t need cruisers to defend them from planes or from destroyers,  they have very good AA and maneuvrability. Planes,  torpedoes?  Only minor threat now. Giving Hydro to the GE BBs was the cherry on the top. 

[22cm]

Baltimore WR 71% AvgDam 74K

 

I find it hard to believe you got 71% on Baltimore playing solo,  or maybe this was in a different meta. 

[Blue_Bug]

 

No one is asking for this, well I for one aren't. All I want is a 'better' distribution off classes by the matchmaker so I don't end up as only cruiser vs 8 BB's ( or two cruisers vs six BB's even ). It's the oversaturation of BB's, I've always liked playing cruisers and I don't think telling me to l2p is applicable here, I don't want CA's buffed or BB's nerfed ( well I want their AAA nerfed so they can't kemp in the back anymore as that opens them up to air attacks ). 

 

I agree totally. If you now play CA on high tier , it feels like punishment. They realy should reward players who play CA  on high tier with favourable MM. No 5 BB's against 2 CA. Give them a lower number of BB's against them. In that case Flanking tactics are legit again.

Let BB players wait a bit longer, or give them some BB player only games.

 

With this solution you will get more CA players on High tier in time, and waiting times for BB's will go down again.

 

[Spithas]

 

 

So I have to take your word for it that you don't stay at max range all match?

But hey, I can pull out my out of context stats too !

Zao : average damage of 120k or so, 75% WR, all the fun stuff, and all solo. And my contribution to the matches? Max range burning BBs to pad damage, and shooting DDs while others spot for me.

 

That's not playing cruisers, that's being a glorified incendiary catapult. It's terrible gamelplay, and the only thing we have to blame is the fact that BBs outnumber CAs.

 

 

Out of context? Do you even know what that means? You can verify my stats for solo at warships.today site.

 

Btw if cruisers can burn down BBs or shoot DDs while others spot for them (aka supporting your DDs) how come they are "more and more pointless"?

 

And you think Cruisers using HE is because of the fact BBs outnumber Cruisers? Hilarious. Feel free to spam my Cruiser with AP when you come across me in your Cruiser, see how well that works out for you.

 

 

I find it hard to believe you got 71% on Baltimore playing solo,  or maybe this was in a different meta. 

 

It's all there in warships.today. A ship with strong radar, good concealment and good AA helps the team win more often than not. Add to that due to the fact that it's damage capabilities are the worst of any T9-T10 cruiser i play much more cautiously with it so i survived more and was therefore able to assist when needed.

[Thejagdpanther]

All I want is a 'better' distribution off classes by the matchmaker so I don't end up as only cruiser vs 8 BB's ( or two cruisers vs six BB's even ). It's the oversaturation of BB's,

 

...looks like the wg is failing also in this game, buffing/nerfing entire classes instead of put some sort of cap for ships.

Im wrong?
 

[Ryuuteimaru]

 

My tier 9-10 Cruiser stats for solo play:

 

Zao WR 62%  AvgDam 135k Wonder how i have such a decent win ratio if i am always 16km from the nearest enemy ship

DM  WR 69% AvgDam 115k  Yeah invisifiring with DM at 17km is the easiest way to get 69% win ratio and 41% hit ratio

Mosvka WR 62% AvgDam 120k Best invisifire ship ingame! So good i didn't even train Concealment expert or use Concealment Module on it.

Ibuki WR 61% AvgDam 85k

Baltimore WR 71% AvgDam 74K

 

And yeah those 83 Cleveland games are really buffing my Cruiser stats unless you think that Aoba can lob shells behind islands too? or did you mean Kutuzov or Chapayev as low tier?

 

But hey i get it. It's hard to admit that CAs are hard to play and very skill intensive... much easier to label the entire class as useless and hope someone buffs them or they nerf BBs.

 

I've actually been in a few games with you and every time you've camped and camped hard.

[Spithas]

 

I've actually been in a few games with you and every time you've camped and camped hard.

 

In exactly how many of the 0 games you've had in T9-10 did you come across me? 

[1MajorKoenig]

 

...looks like the wg is failing also in this game, buffing/nerfing entire classes instead of put some sort of cap for ships.

Im wrong?
 

 

Looks like - yes. But mostly because they don't have a concept.

 

As 22cm said - BBs can do more or less all tasks atm - removing the last bit of need for team play. 

 

I think WG needs to seriously re-assess the whole concept. Imo this phase now is critical to make the right decisions for this game's success:

 

- class roles & resulting team play

- give teams an overall objective - not just damage. There are good examples out there how objectives and team roles promote good team play (Battlefield, etc)

 

I hope WG makes a conscious decision here which route they are talking instead of lingering around (which looks like to be the case at the moment). Fingers crossed

[Redcap375]

 

Looks like - yes. But mostly because they don't have a concept.

 

As 22cm said - BBs can do more or less all tasks atm - removing the last bit of need for team play. 

 

I think WG needs to seriously re-assess the whole concept. Imo this phase now is critical to make the right decisions for this game's success:

 

- class roles & resulting team play

- give teams an overall objective - not just damage. There are good examples out there how objectives and team roles promote good team play (Battlefield, etc)

 

I hope WG makes a conscious decision here which route they are talking instead of lingering around (which looks like to be the case at the moment). Fingers crossed

 

Completely and 100% agree! 

[Thejagdpanther]

i find so simple... 4-5 BB // 4-5 cruisers // 2-3 DD // 1-2 CV

no?

[_FTD_]

 

 

So I have to take your word for it that you don't stay at max range all match?

But hey, I can pull out my out of context stats too !

Zao : average damage of 120k or so, 75% WR, all the fun stuff, and all solo. And my contribution to the matches? Max range burning BBs to pad damage, and shooting DDs while others spot for me.

 

That's not playing cruisers, that's being a glorified incendiary catapult. It's terrible gamelplay, and the only thing we have to blame is the fact that BBs outnumber CAs.

 

 

And yeah, the Aoba can lob shells behind islands. If I can do it with Russian 152s, you can do it with Japanese 203s.

He's not staying at max range because he abuses my gearing smokes 24/7 

[mtm78]

He's not staying at max range because he abuses my gearing smokes 24/7 

 

Uniscum division results should never be used in balance discussions, you're to far off from the median

 

 

ps, would like Spithas to reply to my last two posts

[CaptainNorse]

I'll admit the US cruisers are in a tough spot right now, at least at the high tiers. But the IJN ones perform well. Are they harder to play than BBs? Yes. But I also feel they are more fun, as they see more action. I run the Ibuki with low detectability build. Using this and terrain, I do have an exit strategy. If a situation gets to dangerous, I stop firing and my detectability drops to 10 km. Motor away to a better position and reengage, droppng torpedoes to ward off anyone from tailing after me. 

 

I've only gotten to the mid-tiers for the German and Russian CAs, and they seem to be a mixed bunch of good and bad ships so far. 

 

Only problem I see is currently there is an extra influx of German BBs, meaning that the total number of BBs are higher than normal. Meaning a harder difficulty playing CAs. PErhaps when they release British CAs, the situation will be opposite. Only way to avoid these temporary balance issues would be to release entire tech trees at the same time for new nations introduced (at least BB, CA and DD). 

 

[_FTD_]

 

Uniscum division results should never be used in balance discussions, you're to far off from the median

 

 

ps, would like Spithas to reply to my last two posts

Spithas is one if not the best (rip forgot RNGsama) CA player on EU when it comes to solo as well as division play, there is no reason to question what he says.

[_FTD_]

I'll admit the US cruisers are in a tough spot right now, at least at the high tiers. But the IJN ones perform well. Are they harder to play than BBs? Yes. But I also feel they are more fun, as they see more action. I run the Ibuki with low detectability build. Using this and terrain, I do have an exit strategy. If a situation gets to dangerous, I stop firing and my detectability drops to 10 km. Motor away to a better position and reengage, droppng torpedoes to ward off anyone from tailing after me. 

 

I've only gotten to the mid-tiers for the German and Russian CAs, and they seem to be a mixed bunch of good and bad ships so far. 

 

Only problem I see is currently there is an extra influx of German BBs, meaning that the total number of BBs are higher than normal. Meaning a harder difficulty playing CAs. PErhaps when they release British CAs, the situation will be opposite. Only way to avoid these temporary balance issues would be to release entire tech trees at the same time for new nations introduced (at least BB, CA and DD). 

 

DM is fine, Baltimore is a bit iffy but still okay, NO is good.

 

German BBs are retarded all in one packages well at least the t8 and t10. 

[mtm78]

Spithas is one if not the best (rip forgot RNGsama) CA player on EU when it comes to solo as well as division play, there is no reason to question what he says.

 

No no I want him to answer as I hope I might learn something, he claims oversaturation of BB's is not an issue at all, and that CA's are fine when the MM gives them 8 enemy BB's vs 2 CA's on your team ( you being one of them ). 

 

At least that is what I think he claimed earlier...

 

You see, I know I am not the best but I think I'm not that bad either, and I surely don't agree with the notion that current oversaturation of BB's isn't impacting CA play. 

 

edit: and then he made a claim that people are asking for buffs or nerfs or something, while no one I think has done so so far ( well not in this thread ). Most people seem to agree with me that CA's are being 'shafted' quite a bit with the current BB heavy meta, and that it would be beneficial for more dynamic gameplay to perhaps put more limits to the MM just like they done with CV's. 

[Spithas]

 

No no I want him to answer as I hope I might learn something, he claims oversaturation of BB's is not an issue at all, and that CA's are fine when the MM gives them 8 enemy BB's vs 2 CA's on your team ( you being one of them ). 

 

At least that is what I think he claimed earlier...

 

You see, I know I am not the best but I think I'm not that bad either, and I surely don't agree with the notion that current oversaturation of BB's isn't impacting CA play. 

 

edit: and then he made a claim that people are asking for buffs or nerfs or something, while no one I think has done so so far ( well not in this thread ). Most people seem to agree with me that CA's are being 'shafted' quite a bit with the current BB heavy meta, and that it would be beneficial for more dynamic gameplay to perhaps put more limits to the MM just like they done with CV's. 

 

First of all i have absolutely no problems with limits to classes. I've been advocating for a DD hard cap for ages and i absolutely have no problems with a BB hard carp if it's needed.

 

Secondly i only argued against the OP, and in conjunction with Dominico's posts, that cruisers are very versatile and quite capable ships as they currently are (the high tier ones specifically). They are anything but pointless.

 

The problem is that they are more skill intensive and that is somewhat made more clear from the current influx of BBs however that doesn't translate that BBs numbers is the problem that people have with the class. It's not as if people were performing any better in them before the arrival of German BBs.

[mtm78]

I guess now I get your entire stance on the issue that I actually agree with what you're saying, with the only exception that I think for quite a lot of people their performance has gone down in a more BB heavy meta, because the skill requirements for effective CA play goes up with the addition of more BB's on the battlefield.  You won't notice this because you're one of the best CA players, so for you the adaptation to a new environment comes naturally. 

 

Even for me, it looks like my performance is still going up slightly as I'm still improving, but I have found it more 'frustrating' and less fun ( due to having to work much harder I guess.. maybe I'm to lazy ). And if I feel it already, I can only imagine how enjoyable it probably is for someone from the other side of the spectrum. Which will lead to even less CA's being played, which means players move to other classes ( and I fear BB's -> creating a self sustaining loop which eventually isn't good for the game ). 

 

I would love limits to classes, I feel it would make battles more engaging for all people playing if they have clear 'jobs' or tasks which they are intended but also capable of doing. Sometimes the matches where one class is represented more heavily then the others are also fun, but I'm no longer convinced this outweighs the issues which make me want to put limitations on the MM.